How do you know it's time?

[Jules111]

My lovely horse sadly has arthritis in both hocks and suspensory damage in both hind legs, prescribed bute for several months but didn't tolerate it and vet has now advised to keep her moving without pain killers for as long as possible. Paracetamol based pain relief could be tried but could cause another adverse reaction. She copes ok when out 24/7 but is starting to struggle now temps are dropping and she's starting to come in over night when the weather is bad. She has good days when lame but looks bright and fairly comfortable, other days dull and miserable. It breaks my heart to think of losing her but I hate seeing her suffer. I just don't know how I'll know when she's had enough. Just how do you make that call.

 

[JillA]

A very good vet said to me when I asked that question "You'll know. They deteriorate gradually and then it's as though they have fallen off a cliff, they suddenly go down hill fast". I have found that to be so true with all sorts of animals, dogs cats as well as horses. The trick is to be ready when that happens so let your vet know he may be needed at short notice.

 

[ycbm]

On the days she looks dull and miserable, she has no idea that tomorrow she might feel less dull and less miserable. In that moment, misery is how her life is right now, with no prospect of that ever ending. Even your description of her good days isn't 'comfortable', it's only 'fairly comfortable'. That doesn't sound good, I'm afraid.

For me, if a horse has a condition which can't be treated, and is noticeably dull and miserable before the winter has even started, then it's time.

I'm sorry that it will be hard for you to lose her, but it is the last kindness you can do her.

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[Pearlsasinger]

I'm not sure that every-one does know, some owners keep the animal going for their own benefit, rather than the animal's.

OP, I make the judgement on quality of life, if there are more good days than bad days, so long as the bad days aren't terrible, there is a good quality of life and it's not time yet. If there are more bad days than good ones, it's time. If some days are terrible, it's time.

It's never an easy decision but one that responsible owners make for the animal's sake. Sometimes it is better to make the decision based on what you think will happen next - if you think that arthritis will get worse in cold wet weather you might want to avoid that and make the decision before the worst weather starts.

 

[Jules111]

Thank you for the advice. I see her struggling and think tomorrow morning I will call the vet. Inevitably she seems brighter the next day and I don't ring. I worry about her constantly, it keeps me up at nights. I think maybe a good, honest conversation with the vet is my next option.

 

[meleeka]

Just as a last ditch thing to try, have you tried bandaging her legs when she’s in or putting turnout boots on when she’s out overnight? I’d probably be in your position if I didn’t wrap legs to keep them warm.

In answer to your original question, when not doing anything is a worse thought than making the call.

 

[Trouper]

I don't know where you are but round here (Midlands) the change to cool and wet after hot and dry has certainly set my arthritis going!! It is so hard to know and my vets telling me "i will know" never fills me with confidence at the time - but somehow that always comes true and the feeling of certainty that it is the right time does appear. If you want to be a bit more scientific about it you might start to keep a log of good days and bad days so you that you can look at the evidence objectively but in the end I always go with my gut instinct and if I am a few days too early then I would rather that than a minute too late for her. The anguish is all ours to bear I am afraid so be kind on yourself too.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

My lovely horse sadly has arthritis in both hocks and suspensory damage in both hind legs, prescribed bute for several months but didn't tolerate it and vet has now advised to keep her moving without pain killers for as long as possible. Paracetamol based pain relief could be tried but could cause another adverse reaction. She copes ok when out 24/7 but is starting to struggle now temps are dropping and she's starting to come in over night when the weather is bad. She has good days when lame but looks bright and fairly comfortable, other days dull and miserable. It breaks my heart to think of losing her but I hate seeing her suffer. I just don't know how I'll know when she's had enough. Just how do you make that call.

I know of a friend who has recently lost one that had arthritis that was in part of its body that couldn't really be treated easily. Some days she would look really well and you wouldn't know anything was wrong. But other days, for example if something startled her in the field and she slipped or had a hooley she would be very sore. I believe she was all ready on pain relief.

As is the case with yours, the owner started to see her struggle when she turned her around and she was kept in at night and out during the day because the lack of movement was stiffening her up. So she made the decision before the winter set in to have her pts. It was very sad, especially as she looked so well, but then they can look well but start to suffer on the inside.

Only you know your horse. If you have explored as many treatment options as you feel you can and it sounds like you probably have, then there is nothing much left to do but the ultimate act of kindness for a treasured and much loved friend. x

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Thank you for the advice. I see her struggling and think tomorrow morning I will call the vet. Inevitably she seems brighter the next day and I don't ring. I worry about her constantly, it keeps me up at nights. I think maybe a good, honest conversation with the vet is my next option.

Yes I agree. We can advise you on this forum until the cows come home, but we do not know your horse like you and your vet do, nor its history or what you have tried for her. We are not best advised to be honest.

The buck would always stop with those that know my horse the most, that is my vet, myself and my Y.O and with no disrespect (because I am one) not a bunch of well meaning people that you don't know on H&H forum.

 

[Trouper]

Yes I agree. We can advise you on this forum until the cows come home, but we do not know your horse like you and your vet do, nor its history or what you have tried for her. We are not best advised to be honest.

The buck would always stop with those that know my horse the most, that is my vet, myself and my Y.O and with no disrespect (because I am one) not a bunch of well meaning people that you don't know on H&H forum.

I take your point HB that the primary advice must come from those that know and care for the horse. However, I do think it sometimes helps to mull over the situation with like-minded folk and to hear of their experiences. For me it is often a good balancing exercise when I am feeling too close and too upset by a situation to think clearly and my inclinations are swinging too wildly from one side to another. I think this is where the forum really comes into its own - not to direct or dictate but to share and support.

 

[splashgirl45]

arthritis will only get worse when the full winter hits, you have noticed that she is having a few bad days and you are right a long chat with your vet will help. personally at this time of year i would PTS to avoid the bad weather which will be more difficult for her, think of muddy gateways which then freeze, not easy for a horse without arthritis.....

 

[Jules111]

Thank you all.

I know the time will come to make the call. I also know I would rather a day too soon than a day too late. Choosing that day is so stressful. The feeling that I could be missing the chance to give her another few days, weeks, months is the thing that stresses me so much. I worry that by the time the decision is obvious she will have already been suffering for some time. In some ways having the ability to protect her from suffering is both a curse and a blessing.

I'm having a chat with my vet on Monday (he wasn't in work today) so I'm absolutely not relying on a forum to make the call. I'm very grateful for the advice from the people who have been in similar situations and how they made that difficult decision. Thank you all so much for your kind words and advice.

 

[ycbm]

Thank you all.

I know the time will come to make the call. I also know I would rather a day too soon than a day too late. Choosing that day is so stressful. The feeling that I could be missing the chance to give her another few days, weeks, months is the thing that stresses me so much.

I think you need to turn this round the other way. She doesn't know for care if she has another few, increasingly cold, windy and wet days, weeks or months. What you would be missing is giving yourself that time with her. That wouldn't be a good reason to delay the decision.

I worry that by the time the decision is obvious she will have already been suffering for some time. In some ways having the ability to protect her from suffering is both a curse and a blessing.
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You have described a horse who on her best days is only 'fairly' comfortable, which to me means uncomfortable. Uncomfortable on her best days. She's already suffering on the bad days.


I'm annoyed that you were made to feel uncomfortable about posting this thread. Some people post these threads in order to get a sort of 'permission' to go ahead with something previously unthinkable. You have that, so please give your mare the ultimate kindness before winter sets in.


.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

I'm annoyed that you were made to feel uncomfortable about posting this thread. Some people post these threads in order to get a sort of 'permission' to go ahead with something previously unthinkable. You have that, so please give your mare the ultimate kindness before winter sets in.


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Hi YCBM I do hope this wasn't aimed at me.

Some times life isn't 'black and white' it has grey areas and the OP asked for opinions which mean that people may respond differently to yourself, it doesn't mean they are wrong or right. They just have a different opinion. I don't think the OP was made to feel uncomfortable by anyone on here.

My own horse will no doubt be worse with her arthritis in the winter, but to me that's not a game changer for me and it wouldn't necessarily be for others on this forum. Mine is treated with bute to make her comfortable and is turned out with a nice combo rug so her neck is kept warm and dry (her arthritis is mainly in her neck) and when the weather is worse she will be brought in earlier. There are other ways of dealing with arthritis. I know the OP's horse also has ulcers which is the double complication and I can see where people others who have replied are coming from.

I don't want to fall out with you so please lets not as I have always valued your opinion and comments on my own posts. But I feel I must defend my position and others on here that like Meleeka and Trouper who would maybe look at other ways to deal with the situation first. It doesn't make us cruel, its just another way of 'looking at /dealing with' the issues.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

@hopscotch bandit. I think you must have missed where OP said that her horse doesn't tolerate bute and also that even on her horse's best days, she is lame but fairly comfortable. There really aren't many people who would feel sanguine about trying to keep such a horse comfortable by just putting a rug on. As you say though, Different people have different opinions.

 

[ycbm]

You didn't ask for advice about your horse HB, and I haven't given you any.

Yes, my comment was about your post, which dissuades people in the situation which the OP is in from seeking support for a very difficult decision which in their heads is pretty much already made. They don't write these posts asking 'a bunch of strangers on the internet' to make the decision for them, or even help them make that decision. They write them asking for permission to think the unthinkable thoughts that are already in their heads.

I'm sorry you chose to take it personally. I would not dream of commenting on your own horse unless you ask me to.

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[hopscotch bandit]

@hopscotch bandit. I think you must have missed where OP said that her horse doesn't tolerate bute and also that even on her horse's best days, she is lame but fairly comfortable. There really aren't many people who would feel sanguine about trying to keep such a horse comfortable by just putting a rug on. As you say though, Different people have different opinions.

I wasn't suggesting she gave her horse bute, I had already seen that she couldn't tolerate it. Nor was I suggesting that a rug was a 'cure all'. And I wasn't trying to change the OP's mind. I was just saying that there is more than one way to treat arthritis and there are other options open to the OP and gave examples where an arthritic horse could be treated in other ways until a clear cut decision could be made.

YCBM I know the comment wasn't about my horse, as I said above it was used as an example. My reply certainly doesn't dissuade people from asking for support or justification on their decision.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

I know of a friend who has recently lost one that had arthritis that was in part of its body that couldn't really be treated easily. Some days she would look really well and you wouldn't know anything was wrong. But other days, for example if something startled her in the field and she slipped or had a hooley she would be very sore. I believe she was all ready on pain relief.

As is the case with yours, the owner started to see her struggle when she turned her around and she was kept in at night and out during the day because the lack of movement was stiffening her up. So she made the decision before the winter set in to have her pts. It was very sad, especially as she looked so well, but then they can look well but start to suffer on the inside.

Only you know your horse. If you have explored as many treatment options as you feel you can and it sounds like you probably have, then there is nothing much left to do but the ultimate act of kindness for a treasured and much loved friend. x

I did actually try to support the OP in the post above and said that if she had explored as many treatment options as she felt she could and it sounded as if she had, the there wasn't much else she could do but PTS but I also wanted her to know that there were other supportive measures she could give her horse in the meantime. Finally the OP 'liked' my post suggesting she agreed with my comments in respect of me saying that the only persons that matter to make the decision is her and her vet and she did reply stating that she was relying on a forum to make her decision.

 

[Jules111]

Thank you all again for some excellent advice about how to view this frankly horrible situation I'm in. I am grateful for all opinions and came on here to seek experience from others who have been in similar situations.

Hopscotch I liked you post because I really do appreciate you taking the time to post your experience and advice. I'm not at all offended by the suggestion that I shouldn't ask what to do from a forum. I too get frustrated with posts that seek medical advice from forums when the vet should be the person to give them that opinion. It wasn't medical advice I was seeking, I've spent around £5k in vets opinions on her condition. Despite my 30+ years owning horses I've not yet had to make the call to PTS without being in an obvious PTS immediately situation. Timing that decision is one of the toughest things I've encountered.

I've had a good talk to the vet today. We're giving her a trial with an alternative pain killer. She may not tolerate it, which would basically make the decision very obvious straight away. It won't make her pain any worse and if she has a reaction we'll respond immediately. If she does tolerate it and it gives her some relief we can increase the dose and keep her comfortable for a little longer. If it makes no difference we'll PTS in a week. Vet feels that we basically have nothing to loose by trying.

I appreciate you all sharing you experience dealing with horses at this stage in their lives. I've needed the frank advice that YCBM and PS have kindly shared. It's absolutely true that PTS is were my mind has been going for several months. I know the time is coming and it's hard but I do feel like it's the right decision for her. They certainly don't cover this in pony club.

 

[splashgirl45]

glad you have had your talk with the vet, you need to be sure in your own mind that you have done all you can to give her a good quality of life, but also remember the winter will soon be with us ...good luck with whatever you decide..

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Hopscotch I liked you post because I really do appreciate you taking the time to post your experience and advice. I'm not at all offended by the suggestion that I shouldn't ask what to do from a forum. I too get frustrated with posts that seek medical advice from forums when the vet should be the person to give them that opinion. It wasn't medical advice I was seeking, I've spent around £5k in vets opinions on her condition. Despite my 30+ years owning horses I've not yet had to make the call to PTS without being in an obvious PTS immediately situation. Timing that decision is one of the toughest things I've encountered.

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Thanks Jules11 that's kind of you. I hope whenever you decide to PTS you are at peace with your decision hard as it is to make. It sounds like its imminent but winter can be a funny time of year and I've seen horses that have been desperately ill get better and thrive again in the spring. Its a horrid decision to make and I just don't know how I will cope when the time comes for my elderly horse. I hope the Danillon works for your horse, at least you have had a chat to your vet and that has put your mind at rest a little.

 

[Leandy]

I think if you are using the term "struggling" then it is time even if it is not yet every day. I personally decide not to treat my elderly horses on a long term basis. So if there is a short term issue then of course they get whatever treatment is required to keep them comfortable but if there is a long term deterioration then I don't treat it as, much as I love them, it isn't a good use of money and it is time.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

but if there is a long term deterioration then I don't treat it as, much as I love them, it isn't a good use of money and it is time.

At least you are honest about it.

I know someone who had his horse pts as he couldn't compete it anymore. I don't think I could do that either no matter how much I wanted to compete. But then I've had years of being able to so I don't really know the answer to that.

I love my horse for her, not what she can or can't give me. Everyone is different. It would be a horrible world if we were all the same. And boring too!

 

[splashgirl45]

if my mare had been comfy in the field (she hadnt been ridden for 6 months) , i would still have her and would struggle on to cope with the heavy work that owning a horse entails..even though it would be very hard for me to have all the work and not ride....i decided to PTS solely because her quality of life was getting worse and i knew she would struggle in the winter, i made the decision in september 2016 and miss her every day...its a very difficult decision to have to make but as long as the well being of the horse is the thing being considered and not if they will be missed by the owner then PTS is not the worst thing IMO

 

[Jules111]

Just a quick update on my mare, she showed some improvement with new meds but unfortunately it was short lived and she started to struggle again this week. I decided she'd had enough and let her go yesterday. Really tough time but the right decision for her. The advice from this forum helped so thank you.

 

[JillA]

So sorry to hear it wasn't the outcome you had hoped for. Sometimes it's a relief when the decision is made and it's all behind you.

 

[splashgirl45]

so sorry, you did the right thing for her, hope you are ok

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Thank you for updating us.

It is such a hard decision but one that responsible owners make in the horse's best interests. I'm sure you were right about her having had enough, it sounds as if you had explored every avenue that your vet could think of.

I'm so sorry that you had to make the decision.

 

[Bradsmum]

So sorry but you tried to help her and then made the kindest decision. Take time to care for yourself now.

 

[ycbm]

Just a quick update on my mare, she showed some improvement with new meds but unfortunately it was short lived and she started to struggle again this week. I decided she'd had enough and let her go yesterday. Really tough time but the right decision for her. The advice from this forum helped so thank you.

Every horse needs an owner as good. Take care of yourself.

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