How do you know when is the right time to PTS

[Kmurf83]

Looking for advice with regards to title. Horse is my horse of a life time. Hes only 22 but has had a heavy working career from before I got him and has respiratory disease and hock arthritis. Hes dropped weight more than usual this winter and is coughing a lot. Hes been having dilaterol but to no effect and is up to date with all checks. Vet has prescribed inhaler but hes still coughing a lot. I know he will improve slightly as we come into spring but I'm so worried for next winter. I dont know whether to try to drag him through another winter or to make a decision before then. I'm not looking for advice on feeding or management, just the title.

Many thanks

 

[ycbm]

I'm struggling to see why you would put him through another winter.

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[Kmurf83]

Like I said, this winter has been worse for him. I usually manage to keep condition on him more even though it's a struggle. Hes lively in himself though and full of character, that's what makes it hard. He looks just looks bad and is coughing more than usual

 

[Pearlsasinger]

If he is coughing there is a problem now. I would have him tested for Cushings, Prascend can help with all sorts of symptoms and it might help with your horse's cough. I wouldn't put this horse through another winter though.

 

[Kmurf83]

Hes been tested for this only very recently and it was negative. Thanks for your response

 

[bonny]

Can he live out ?

 

[Kmurf83]

He does live out 24/7 due to breathing. Hes well rugged but being a sports horse this doesn't help with his condition. I beginning to feel like I'm fighting a losing battle

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Hes been tested for this only very recently and it was negative. Thanks for your response

Was that the ACTH test? Our mare with breathing problems tested within normal range, then she had the TRH Stim test which is more accurate and was 8 times over the normal limit. She was immediately put on Prascend.
When considering whether to pts, I always look at quality of life. If the horse can live a normal, even if slower, life with the usual companions, eating well and following a usual turnout routine.

 

[Kmurf83]

Yes it was. Not heard of the other test, will speak to vet about it, thanks. He seems happy enough. It's just his condition that's worrying me and it's also not nice to see him struggling for breath. He even has a coughing fit after rolling

 

[AmyMay]

If he’s struggling for breath, time to say goodbye ?

 

[Kmurf83]

If he’s struggling for breath, time to say goodbye ?

He is some days, some days he seems great. That's what makes it so hard. I think he's happy enough now but I think next winter will be worse so may have to say goodbye before then

 

[Firefly9410]

I pts my old horse for the same reason. We reached the point where there was nothing more that could be done. Needed to be kept as fit as possible for breathing issues but needed workload limited for arthritis. Looked fine still bright but stayed slim when usually fat in summer. Muscle mass went pain I am guessing kept looking thinking there are fat pads but yet not looking over weight took me a while to work it out. So we did not do another winter. The only thing I feel guilty about is wondering whether I was right to give that last summer or if I should have done it in the spring. But guilt is part of grief so I put it down to that. On balance I think mine enjoyed the summer and we can only do what we think is right at the time. Hugs to you. It is difficult.

 

[Kmurf83]

I pts my old horse for the same reason. We reached the point where there was nothing more that could be done. Needed to be kept as fit as possible for breathing issues but needed workload limited for arthritis. Looked fine still bright but stayed slim when usually fat in summer. Muscle mass went pain I am guessing kept looking thinking there are fat pads but yet not looking over weight took me a while to work it out. So we did not do another winter. The only thing I feel guilty about is wondering whether I was right to give that last summer or if I should have done it in the spring. But guilt is part of grief so I put it down to that. On balance I think mine enjoyed the summer and we can only do what we think is right at the time. Hugs to you. It is difficult.

That's exactly where I'm at. I know in the summer he'll look good (he's a truly handsome bugger) but wont have enough weight to keep him good through next winter. His breathing is worse since I retired him last year and he's dropped all his muscle. He needs to work but cant really work. I've just got to the point where I feel like it's an uphill battle. I'm thinking of giving him this last summer and then PTS, but then I feel guilty and like I should be trying other things to get him right.

 

[View]

It's so hard, isn't it. But we owe it to them to ensure that we don't let them suffer and that they go while they still have good quality of life. Better a day too soon is so true - it's horrible to let them go on too long, have to make the call in an emergency and then regret it.

We're due some good weather this week. From what you have said, I would make the call, let him have a couple of days in the sun and go peacefully eating his favourite food.

Hugs.

 

[Kmurf83]

It's so hard, isn't it. But we owe it to them to ensure that we don't let them suffer and that they go while they still have good quality of life. Better a day too soon is so true - it's horrible to let them go on too long, have to make the call in an emergency and then regret it.

We're due some good weather this week. From what you have said, I would make the call, let him have a couple of days in the sun and go peacefully eating his favourite food.

Hugs.

Thank you. I think you've all helped me to decide I wont try to get him through another winter. I'm not sure it's an immediate issue and don't know if I'd be able to get a vet out now due to the current situation, but I really dont want to leave him too long either

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I pts my old horse for the same reason. We reached the point where there was nothing more that could be done. Needed to be kept as fit as possible for breathing issues but needed workload limited for arthritis. Looked fine still bright but stayed slim when usually fat in summer. Muscle mass went pain I am guessing kept looking thinking there are fat pads but yet not looking over weight took me a while to work it out. So we did not do another winter. The only thing I feel guilty about is wondering whether I was right to give that last summer or if I should have done it in the spring. But guilt is part of grief so I put it down to that. On balance I think mine enjoyed the summer and we can only do what we think is right at the time. Hugs to you. It is difficult.

We have said that perhaps we should ahve pts our breathing difficulties mare at the same time as her companion ws pts, about 3 months before we let her go. We thought she was ok but looking back her quality of life was not as good as it should have been. It is never an easy decision and you just do what feels right at the time.

 

[paddy555]

Was that the ACTH test? Our mare with breathing problems tested within normal range, then she had the TRH Stim test which is more accurate and was 8 times over the normal limit. She was immediately put on Prascend.
When considering whether to pts, I always look at quality of life. If the horse can live a normal, even if slower, life with the usual companions, eating well and following a usual turnout routine.

if your horse has lost a lot of muscle I would consider cushings. Mine tested negative (very negative) twice. He had lost copious amounts of muscle and had infection problems as do many cushings horses. Testing further may not be easy at this time. For my horse the vet put him on a prascend trial. The difference was remarkable, all the muscle came back and the horse went from a skeleton who was eating a whole bale of hay a day plus feed and losing weight (he was 500kg so not a big horse for the amount of hay he was getting) to a normal horse. Infections were gone. ACTH tests have sometimes been shown to be unreliable.

If you are considering PTS in the autumn and explain to the vet I cannot see you are going to lose anything by trialling prascend (the cushings medication)

I wouldn't worry about it until the Autumn. Anything unrelated could happen to your horse in the meantime so worrying would be a waste of time. Then the question for me would simply be quality of life as above. Was the horse happy, could bute or danilon control hock pain if needed, All the things in the final sentence above.
I take it the teeth have been well checked. I had an older horse who just kept losing weight despite the dentist doing his teeth. Then a dentist trained vet came out, sorted the teeth and several years later he is a lot fatter and still here.

 

[Kmurf83]

I will speak to me vet again but she was quite adamant that pracsend wouldn't help him. His hocks aren't really a huge issue, it's only mild and flares up in cold weather or when stables. Yes he's up to date with everything including teeth. Thanks for your help

 

[paddy555]

she was quite adamant that pracsend wouldn't help him.

so was mine. I insisted. Vet was very surprised at the results. I asked if trialling prascend could do the horse any harm. (my alternative was PTS he had lost so much muscle and couldn't keep weight on) She told me no it wouldn't harm him so I said no reason not to try it then. Only thing it was going to hurt was my bank balance. It doesn't mean it would work for your lad but at 22 I would be wondering.

how is his coat now? all of ours are well on the way to being out and shedding normally. (they are rugged) If yours is the same then OK but if you are still at shaggy yak stage that could be an indicator.

 

[Kmurf83]

He's shedding quite normally and doesn't have an unusual coat. I will speak to my vet again but I honestly don't feel that he has Cushing's (I have owned a pony with cushings previously)

 

[meleeka]

When you’ve tried everything you can and the thought of seeing them suffer is worse than letting them go.

 

[Kmurf83]

When you’ve tried everything you can and the thought of seeing them suffer is worse than letting them go.

Thank you! A very logical way to look at it.

 

[Firefly9410]

Unfortunately there is no magic wand. Mine was not struggling to breathe but would have if I had retired completely. But lived to work so retirement not an option anyway. I read it somewhere breathing troubles are worse when lying down. Maybe you could hang around until yours lays down then see if you still want to do the summer. Unless breathing is better in summer? Mine was affected by pollen too so summer was worse. I think cushings is irrelevant I cannot see the treatment helping with breathing.

 

[Kmurf83]

Unfortunately there is no magic wand. Mine was not struggling to breathe but would have if I had retired completely. But lived to work so retirement not an option anyway. I read it somewhere breathing troubles are worse when lying down. Maybe you could hang around until yours lays down then see if you still want to do the summer. Unless breathing is better in summer? Mine was affected by pollen too so summer was worse. I think cushings is irrelevant I cannot see the treatment helping with breathing.

Yeah it's a shame as I think in his head he'd still like to work. I sit with him sometimes when he lies down in the field and his breathing seems okay. It's when he does something like canters, trots or rolls that he starts coughing and struggling. He's not affected by pollen and is only bad in summer when its particularly dry and hot. Thank you, it has been most helpful to have some one who's been through similar share their thoughts.

 

[ycbm]

When you’ve tried everything you can and the thought of seeing them suffer is worse than letting them go.

I'm sorry Meleeka, but some people suffer so much at the thought of letting their horses go that this moment is far too late for the horse. In fact I think this is a real welfare issue for pet animals of all kinds.

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[ycbm]

He's shedding quite normally and doesn't have an unusual coat. I will speak to my vet again but I honestly don't feel that he has Cushing's (I have owned a pony with cushings previously)

I've come across a lot of horses with Cushings and none have had any symptoms but foot problems.

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[Kmurf83]

He doesn't have foot problems either. I'll trust my vet with this one.

 

[paddy555]

I've come across a lot of horses with Cushings and none have had any symptoms but foot problems.

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I am sorry to disagree and whilst it doesn't apply to OP but I am posting just in case anyone else reads this thread. Cushings horses have a LOT of problems that are nothing to do with the feet. In fact I think the feet for many could be one of the lesser problems. Mine for example would have been PTS for welfare reasons due to skin and throat infections and his need for large doses of antibiotics at far too frequent intervals. That was of course leaving aside all of his other problems which magically disappeared with prascend. Cushings presents many problems and many of those are nothing to do with abscesses and laminitis.
This was not a horse I came across this was a horse whose journey I lived with for 20 years and who had cushings for a lot of that time part of which was undiagnosed. He was also a horse that I literally tore my hair out trying to make sense of his symptoms as none of them made sense and cushings info was far more limited then. Similarly 2 others that I personally owned rather than came across.

Whilst OP's horse has had cushings ruled out it does affect horses in many different ways.

 

[Kmurf83]

I am sorry to disagree and whilst it doesn't apply to OP but I am posting just in case anyone else reads this thread. Cushings horses have a LOT of problems that are nothing to do with the feet. In fact I think the feet for many could be one of the lesser problems. Mine for example would have been PTS for welfare reasons due to skin and throat infections and his need for large doses of antibiotics at far too frequent intervals. That was of course leaving aside all of his other problems which magically disappeared with prascend. Cushings presents many problems and many of those are nothing to do with abscesses and laminitis.
This was not a horse I came across this was a horse whose journey I lived with for 20 years and who had cushings for a lot of that time part of which was undiagnosed. He was also a horse that I literally tore my hair out trying to make sense of his symptoms as none of them made sense and cushings info was far more limited then. Similarly 2 others that I personally owned rather than came across.

Whilst OP's horse has had cushings ruled out it does affect horses in many different ways.

Yes I agree with this. This is why we Cushing's tested him initially. Facts are with my boy though, he has had respiratory issues since way before I had him but has always been manageable with an inhaler. His breathing has become worse since he retired and so has his condition. The weight loss is a battle every winter as he's a large sports horse living out.

 

[paddy555]

Yes I agree with this. This is why we Cushing's tested him initially. Facts are with my boy though, he has had respiratory issues since way before I had him but has always been manageable with an inhaler. His breathing has become worse since he retired and so has his condition. The weight loss is a battle every winter as he's a large sports horse living out.

Good luck with him, let him have a good summer and things may then become much more obvious for you.