How do you, personally, ask your horse to go in an outline?

[maya2008]

I have been doing this too long so it’s more automatic muscle memory than anything else. I am pretty sure it involves my core, but as far as describing it to someone else, I get on, gather up my reins and put my leg on. For baby horses, I use the flexions method to teach them initially.

So…why am I asking? Well, my son wants to know! His pony pretty much just pops her head down neatly when you pick up the reins, but that doesn’t work (for him) on our other family ponies. I get on and they drop their little noses just in front of the vertical, engage and go, but I cannot for the life of me explain what I do differently to him! Our regular instructor isn’t having too much luck either. To make matters worse, they all like to drop into a pretty outline if you pop his 7yo sister on and there’s no way she is doing that on purpose!

So I am asking here in the hopes that someone can describe it well enough that he can understand!

Any recommendations for how to build core muscles off the horse gratefully received also!

 

[ponynutz]

I've always struggled with my girl and it's rare I manage to get her to work properly for very long but it means I get an outline on most other horses that I've ridden. So I think some are harder than others.
When I get it at the end of a ride, that's great but I'm more looking for her to be working correctly. I have plenty of pictures of her tracking up, lifting her core, with her head down but you wouldn't describe her as 'in an outline'. I've attached one. (Pfp is one of the rare occasions we've got it 'properly'). I think it's her build that makes it uncomfy for her to be honest.
Therefore I'd reinforce to my son that getting an outline isn't the be all and end all and pony going nicely is the real goal.

However, here's what I do at the start of flatwork to get them working correctly:

I work them from behind initially, make sure that they're tracking up and moving and lifting their own core underneath me. This I do with some rein back and working on squares rather than a circle to engage their hind legs more. Leg yield helps too occasionally if they can do it properly.

I then work on a circle asking for flexion while still implementing the same things I asked at the beginning and start making plenty of transitions.

Then when they start to feel like they want to stretch I'll quietly just squeeze the reins with my fourth finger alternately. Bit stronger if they don't react. Stop when they give me what I want then engage my own core and lift my hands slightly to make sure it's comfortable for them to trot around like that. That's it really.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I wouldn't expect young children to be able to ride most ponies into a frame, they just aren't strong enough. Equines need to be ridden through from behind to be able to be said to be 'in an outline', it isn't about where the head is.

 

[stangs]

I don’t.

I strongly believe in horses doing whatever they want with their heads, whatever feels right for them in their bodies. The head comes down in its own time when the back lifts and the hind gets going. As a rider, my job is only to ask them to perform exercises that will encourage this, and to make sure they are strong enough to lift their back and resist my weight.

To be frank, I suspect many horses who curl their necks nicely, when their rider gets on, are horses who have been trained to hold their heads in a specific position, with strong rein pressure or gadgets, and therefore aren’t actually in an outline.

But, as PaS said, I wouldn’t expect a kid to need to achieve an outline - for the simple reason that they’re probably not yet experienced enough to understand how to school a horse without instruction. The head position is just a side effect of that.

 

[I'm Dun]

 

[ponynutz]

Re core strength a thread was posted on here not too long ago:
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/core-strength-exercises.818711/

 

[emilylou]

Forward, then straight, then collection and they come up and together nicely.
But achieving that simple sentence can take months and you need a strong core, a good seat, soft hands and strong legs.
I find most people who struggle don’t get the horses going forward enough to begin with and ride slightly in front of the movement. So start with generating enough energy in the horse and lots of no stirrup work for the rider to get them sitting in the right place.

 

[honetpot]

I would not expect a child to understand how to get a pony truly working from behind until they have learnt to use their seat, weight aids, and almost forget about the front end of the horse, for most adults it takes years.
When I was first trying to learn this I started when coming home from a hack, most horses are more energetic coming home. Trying to keep that forward power while, controlling it with your core body, and soft hands, so it literally steps into your hands. The horse wants to go forward so you're not constantly using leg, you should be able to feel the horse stepping underneath you, so all you are doing is controlling the power, not stopping it.
I think for children it is important for them to learn that pulling the front end does not mean they have control as early as possible. That even their lighter body weight and position can affect speed and direction, and I hate it when they have been taught to fiddle with the reins, they get fixed wrists, shoulders, elbows and a hollow back.
If the frame of the horse front and back matches, the legs are going underneath, can maintain a rhythm and know how to alter that rhythm, with their body, is a good start.

 

[eahotson]

I wouldn't expect young children to be able to ride most ponies into a frame, they just aren't strong enough. Equines need to be ridden through from behind to be able to be said to be 'in an outline', it isn't about where the head is.

Love.

 

[ycbm]

I can't help with what a child should be able to do with a pony, but I describe getting an outline as a feeling of hooking the trailer of the articulated lorry onto the front unit with the steering and controls in. It actually feels like that to me, a raising of the wither and hooking over something into a connection. Then the head drops, the horse lets me "into" its back, and everything goes fluid and flexible. So although it does start from behind, it's not an entirely "from behind" feeling. I get it from a deep seat and a clear moment of calves in a push inwards into a momentarily ungiving hand, which is given as soon as the horse gives.

I don't know if that will make any sense to anyone else!
.

 

[Red-1]

I ask him for transitions, either within the pace or between paces, as well as changing bend etc. It is the paying attention to what adjustments that he will need to make in his body that encourages him to hold himself in a way that he could easily make those changes for me. It is him not being able to anticipate what the future changes will be that helps encourage him to be up and ready to do them, in any direction, so that is balance.

I am talking whole body though, not specifically the head!

We only go floating round, as in not making many adjustments, when we have a lovely feel, with the power coming from behind and softly landing in the hand. At the moment, baby horse manages about 5 strides, if I'm lucky. I would call this holy grail self-carriage.

To me, it feels like we are recirculating energy. I am riding the wave of energy, it circles round over the top to the front, circles round back to the back legs.

Baby horse's biggest block at the moment is lack of energy! Hard to ride a wave of energy when there is little there. Rather than flap at him, I find it best to play with what we do have, so gather it up in shortening/slower, so we are consolidating what we do have, then when I ask him to move on, he can do so with a push from behind.

Relaxation isn't currently an issue!

 

[milliepops]

I also think this depends on a child being quite advanced in their riding.

I'm going to buck the hho dogma of ride it forward and it'll go in an outline...it might work with a generous schoolmaster but anything that has an educational requirement will not necessarily. I think you have to start by teaching the horse how to yield to the bit. They have to understand the aid before they'll work out the correct response.

Then, pick up your contact. A horse needs to feel the contact in order to respond to it. A horse that tucks its nose in without this is generally not through, and while it might be on an outline, it's not "on the bit"
Then for me, if the horse hasn't read the manual, and hollows, leans or generally doesn't get it, it's a case of feeling where you have resistances and working through them while keeping the horse between leg and hand. (This is where the "from behind" bit comes from IMO and you have to assess this against the horse's natural paces and balance because being too ambitious can put them off balance and then worse in the hand). The resistance may be in the jaw, poll, neck or back, ribs etc or just in the horses mind. And using whatever exercises are appropriate to untangle those little "no"s. But you do need to use your reins imo. If you don't then your horse will never figure out that the bit has a purpose for communication.

 

[scats]

Keeping a nice consistent contact (not fixed, not fiddling) and then I just ride. Straightness is key, you don’t want them bulging on one shoulder or you’ll lose your connection.
Sometimes you have to work out what level of consistent a horse likes. Polly likes a very firm feel or she just runs through the bridle, whereas Millie likes it slightly softer.

I’ve always likened it to a feel that is very difficult to teach. You instinctively know through your body and what the horse is doing, how you need to achieve it, but I don’t think I could put that feeling into words to explain to someone. Not very helpful, I know!

 

[milliepops]

.

I also think this depends on a child being quite advanced in their riding.

I'm going to buck the hho dogma of ride it forward and it'll go in an outline...it might work with a generous schoolmaster but anything that has an educational requirement will not necessarily. I think you have to start by teaching the horse how to yield to the bit. They have to understand the aid before they'll work out the correct response.

Then, pick up your contact. A horse needs to feel the contact in order to respond to it. A horse that tucks its nose in without this is generally not through, and while it might be on an outline, it's not "on the bit"
Then for me, if the horse hasn't read the manual, and hollows, leans or generally doesn't get it, it's a case of feeling where you have resistances and working through them while keeping the horse between leg and hand. (This is where the "from behind" bit comes from IMO and you have to assess this against the horse's natural paces and balance because being too ambitious can put them off balance and then worse in the hand). The resistance may be in the jaw, poll, neck or back, ribs etc or just in the horses mind. And using whatever exercises are appropriate to untangle those little "no"s. But you do need to use your reins imo. If you don't then your horse will never figure out that the bit has a purpose for communication.

^that's not riding front to back BTW, just putting a feeling front on, for the back to work towards! It feels like it's against HHO rules to say you pick your reins up.

 

[scats]

.
^that's not riding front to back BTW, just putting a feeling front on, for the back to work towards! It feels like it's against HHO rules to say you pick your reins up.

I remember a friend getting very confused because she kept hearing about pushing from the back and, sure enough, she got her horse powering round nicely, but she completely forgot about the front end so all that lovely energy was firing out the front and her horse was having a jolly time with his nose in the clouds.

OP- it does also depend very much on the horse and it’s previous training and sometimes even it’s general temperament. My experience is there’s no one way that works for all. It’s about riding that individual horse and figuring what is going to be the best way to join the dots. That’s something that comes with experience and may not be easy for a child to work out.

 

[palo1]

I was taught, quite usefully to start with putting myself in an outline (ie to put myself 'on the bit' lol); to sit correctly legs nicely draped and supporting rather than gripping; to engage my core and sit 'up' with my seat connected but not tensing (no clenched buttocks lol) and then to take up the reins with the same contact that you would for holding a child's hand (a compliant child lol, not one trying to leg it hahahaha) so that there is softness but also clarity there. I was also taught about the muscular impact of the seat and legs which help to bring the hind into the conversation. When the legs and seat are in the right place, with a clear contact a horse will always find it easier to work 'through' and it is usually a very obvious feeling when they engage their quarters and back. I was never taught to niggle away at the front but some teachers like a firmer contact than I was taught.

ETA - getting myself in the right outline is still a 'choice' - I am perfectly capable, sadly, of coming off the mark, especially during or after a long ride but it takes considerable muscular strength for both horse and rider to work in an engaged way for a long time so I try to forgive myself, at the same time as always doing some engaged work every single time I ride. Hopefully the horse is stretching but in fact if you are slopping along, not engaged, the horse probably isn;t. I try to remember that too....

Further edit....It can be useful to think of 'gathering' the horse together with the legs and seat bringing the hind end under and the hands asking for the horse to not throw away the power at the front. It feels 'tidy' but not 'tight ime.

 

[TheMule]

I also think this depends on a child being quite advanced in their riding.

I'm going to buck the hho dogma of ride it forward and it'll go in an outline...it might work with a generous schoolmaster but anything that has an educational requirement will not necessarily. I think you have to start by teaching the horse how to yield to the bit. They have to understand the aid before they'll work out the correct response.

Then, pick up your contact. A horse needs to feel the contact in order to respond to it. A horse that tucks its nose in without this is generally not through, and while it might be on an outline, it's not "on the bit"
Then for me, if the horse hasn't read the manual, and hollows, leans or generally doesn't get it, it's a case of feeling where you have resistances and working through them while keeping the horse between leg and hand. (This is where the "from behind" bit comes from IMO and you have to assess this against the horse's natural paces and balance because being too ambitious can put them off balance and then worse in the hand). The resistance may be in the jaw, poll, neck or back, ribs etc or just in the horses mind. And using whatever exercises are appropriate to untangle those little "no"s. But you do need to use your reins imo. If you don't then your horse will never figure out that the bit has a purpose for communication.

Absolutely this, thank you!

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Mim will pop her head down neatly as soon as you pick up the contact. And absolutely nothing happens to her core.

I ask Mim to engage her core by teaching it in-hand.

I use a lunge cavesson over snaffle bridle (or the attachment on her Micklem bridle), a roller, and side reins that are only at ‘light contact’ level. That is not to strap down the head at all - that’s the opposite of what I want - but to rather to simulate the kind of contact she can expect when I ride her. I also use a schooling whip to lightly touch the area I’m asking her to engage, never anything more than a tickle because I never want her to associate the whip with punishment or pain.

I stand at her shoulder and face towards her quarters, so I am walking backwards when she moves.

I get her to walk on and when she has settled into the contact, I use a schooling whip to tickle her belly and she will engage her core. I get a few steps and then give a fuss.

I often find it’s easier to get the first steps coming out of a corner or turning down the center line, when the inside hind is coming further under the horse anyway.

I build up more and more steps slowly because it’s hard work for them.

When I start to ask under saddle, I pick up the contact (Mim is very light so I am very light with her), keep my seat soft, use my calves to ask her to move forward into the contact and then back up with a tickle of the schooling whip. As soon as a get some nice steps, I will give a fuss and leave it.

I’ve done this when backing her, and I’m redoing it now because she’s had a month off as a holiday. It will take me about 3-4 weeks of building up before I will ride a 20 min schooling session in an outline.

I’m in about week 2 now and I don’t need to use the whip often at all, only if she’s being distracted and looky or if she’s tired but then I usually get the engagement once and then pat and leave it.

The other thing which really helped me was working on my own core. The horse will find it very difficult to work through properly if the rider is “collapsed” through their own core. It really shouldn’t be an issue for children because they are usually active, supple little people but for me, with my hours behind a desk all day, this has been a necessary consideration.

Also, to add, another benefit of doing the in-hand work is that you can see the horse’s back muscles and core muscles working. I found it really interesting to see how the muscles behind her withers where moving differently too.

 

[maya2008]

Thanks all, I’m going to make notes on anything that might help him and go from there! He wants to do what his parents can do; what his instructor does; what he does every day on his own pony, but on anything - not just the one who is being nice to him and helping!

In terms of his ability, he’s nearly 10, has backed a fair few ponies, can ride in all gaits and jump without a saddle (from 10.2hh shetlands to 14.2hh New Forests) and is jumping 70cm courses on current pony while gradually increasing her fitness. She's a complex soul due to her pssm and SJ breeding, so it was only this year that I was convinced he was strong enough to get her fit and jump her. Unfit, no jump in sight, walk and trot only, she'll potter along out hacking sweetly with anyone on her. Fit, she once did multiple laps of our old field with terrified teenager attached, completely unable to stop, because their weight was in the wrong place and she thought they wanted to gallop. Jumping is similar - ride her correctly or she'll gallop flat out at the first jump she sees, with no regard for the need to stop or turn on the other side. Ride her correctly though and she's a dream: jumps as high as you'd ever want to go, doesn't touch fences, doesn't care about fillers and is as fast as you'd ever need for the jump-off. He's spent months getting the hang of her, and can now trot or canter round a course in a nice, flowing rhythm. Most recently, we've been working on weight aids, using them to regulate her speed within gaits and for downward transitions.

And there's his frustration really - he can do so much now he couldn't before, ride the pony his friends ooh and ahh at...and yet my 12.2hh laughs at his attempts to ask her to go in an outline, and our cob allows it in trot but not in canter. It's not their training - they go beautifully with minimal input from me - I literally get on and pick up the reins, they lift under me and off we go. Same for the kids' instructor.

I really like the idea of holding yourself the way you want the pony to go, as it's an easy visual for him to imagine - I remember something like that from my teenage days, something about imagining a string attached to your head pulling you up, and pulling the pony's back up with you.

 

[eahotson]

I can't help with what a child should be able to do with a pony, but I describe getting an outline as a feeling of hooking the trailer of the articulated lorry onto the front unit with the steering and controls in. It actually feels like that to me, a raising of the wither and hooking over something into a connection. Then the head drops, the horse lets me "into" its back, and everything goes fluid and flexible. So although it does start from behind, it's not an entirely "from behind" feeling. I get it from a deep seat and a clear moment of calves in a push inwards into a momentarily ungiving hand, which is given as soon as the horse gives.

I don't know if that will make any sense to anyone else!
.

Kirsten Alexa Hansen is a trainer I much admire and follow on Facebook.She talks a lot about connecting the back end to the front.I think you explain it well.

 

[Tarragon]

This is all so fascinating! This is why I completely fail to learn anything by just reading the usual sort of instructions given in a typical magazine article or instruction manual. Riding is such an art form, based on a feel and instinctive tiny adjustments to adapt to the reactions of another living being. So hard to put it into words.
It is only now that I am schooling my unbacked pony with the help of someone who follows Phillippe Karl, that the penny is beginning to drop. I realise that for the last 50 years I have just been the product of typical Pony Club (lower levels!) and hacking and my definition of riding has been is the pony going where I want to it at the speed I want it to. Don't get me wrong, we have covered many happy miles doing this, but there is so much more! Now, aged 60, I am starting again, and doing something more like LadyG and working in-hand first and then building up from that. The in-hand will always be a few steps ahead of the ridden work.
I am really enjoying and appreciating these considered responses - though I am not sure it will help the OP much!

 

[SEL]

I've got 3 very different horses here and it isn't one size fits all. The microcob used to look very pretty with her head tucked in but wasn't on the bit - I suspect she'd been taught with side reins or similar at some point. In the hackamore I struggle to stop her going on the forehand and can feel my core working hard to steady that forward movement and get her to engage her core.

My newbie is a baby cob with a big action and naturally hollows. He was backed by a very experienced lady so understands the rein but my challenge is getting him almost forward and down (which isn't "down" at all - just him stretching into a contact). He gave me some lovely strides yesterday where you could feel his back come up and then there's that lightness which means they are truly engaged.

I wonder if your daughter is just sitting quietly with a consistent rein aid so the ponies have a lovely soft contact to work into. I've seen it with complete beginners before - walking round while you explain the basics of holding the reins and putting legs on the suddenly you have a RS pony working in a fab outline. I'd probably stop your son trying so hard. I was definitely working on basic lateral work as a kid before anyone started making a fuss about where I put the horse's head

 

[eahotson]

I've got 3 very different horses here and it isn't one size fits all. The microcob used to look very pretty with her head tucked in but wasn't on the bit - I suspect she'd been taught with side reins or similar at some point. In the hackamore I struggle to stop her going on the forehand and can feel my core working hard to steady that forward movement and get her to engage her core.

My newbie is a baby cob with a big action and naturally hollows. He was backed by a very experienced lady so understands the rein but my challenge is getting him almost forward and down (which isn't "down" at all - just him stretching into a contact). He gave me some lovely strides yesterday where you could feel his back come up and then there's that lightness which means they are truly engaged.

I wonder if your daughter is just sitting quietly with a consistent rein aid so the ponies have a lovely soft contact to work into. I've seen it with complete beginners before - walking round while you explain the basics of holding the reins and putting legs on the suddenly you have a RS pony working in a fab outline. I'd probably stop your son trying so hard. I was definitely working on basic lateral work as a kid before anyone started making a fuss about where I put the horse's head

You can learn a lot sometimes by watching complete beginners.

 

[Tiddlypom]

But you do need to use your reins imo. If you don't then your horse will never figure out that the bit has a purpose for communication.

This. I'm on a steep learning curve atm, as the tried and tested TP method of offering a very soft and relaxed contact, and expecting the horse to raise its back and round to the contact, doesn't work on the RS horses that I've been riding recently!

They are well schooled, but they expect to be 'asked' to accept the contact, and it's been quite a challenge for me to get this right without fixing my elbows and hands.

A very useful experience for me, and hopefully not too traumatic for the horses! All done under expert instruction.

 

[oldie48]

Essentially I agree with MP. I also think that different horses respond to different exercises depending on their level of training, conformation, age and suppleness etc. I don't have anything like the level of skill or experience that some people have but tbh I don't expect any horse I've ridden to "go on the bit" immediately, I like to spend time warming them up, encouraging them to bend and flex, make sure they keep a rhythm, are in front of the leg and willing to soften in the back and I do that by using exercises. My current ride is no longer young and needs plenty of time to warm up (bit like me). For me it's all about the movements/exercises that I use and that will to some degree depend on how the horse feels. I tend to learn what works for a particular horse and what doesn't but I do have a contact and I personally find that having short enough reins so that I can give clear positive aids is pretty key. My daughter started learning to ride her pony in an outline about the same age as your son and her trainer also exercises eg 10 metre circle in walk, keep the rhythm, have the correct bend, don't let the outside shoulder pop out etc so the focus was not about putting the pony on the bit it was about doing the movement as well as possible but if she did the exercise well, hey presto the pony was starting to work nicely. I also think it's helpful for the child to understand that "on the bit" ie through isn't about the head being in a particular position, it's about the whole way of going, so if they give the pony a stretch the shoulders should still stay up and the pony should still be coming through. It took me ages to understand why it often attracts double marks in dressage test, but basically it's generally not done very well and the horse is just on the forehand and going nowhere. I think it's great that your son wants to ride better, the penny dropped with my daughter when she was getting DCs but never getting placed because her Dr mark was rubbish!

 

[smolmaus]

This. I'm on a steep learning curve atm, as the tried and tested TP method of offering a very soft and relaxed contact, and expecting the horse to raise its back and round to the contact, doesn't work on the RS horses that I've been riding recently!

They are well schooled, but they expect to be 'asked' to accept the contact, and it's been quite a challenge for me to get this right without fixing my elbows and hands.

A very useful experience for me, and hopefully not too traumatic for the horses! All done under expert instruction.

Similar here. My previous RS instructor preferred a light contact on all her horses and they would drop into it with a good leg aid and a tiny sponge down the rein so that was my automatic go-to. The current RS likes you to have short reins and a stronger contact at all times on hers. The contact I feel like I wanted to have previously is "washing lines" now and I never feel like they are ever really light in the hand even when they are going nicely. They are still well schooled horses, just differently schooled, and I am certainly still learning useful things.

The TP method still my preference!

 

[Palindrome]

Shoulder in and ground poles are good exercises to have the horse going in an outline, I would practice those.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Shoulder in and ground poles are good exercises to have the horse going in an outline, I would practice those.

I still remember, over 40 yrs on, the moment my 4 yr old TBxWelsh went in an 'outline' for the first time. We were on our way home, going uphill in trot at the end of a hack.

 

[shortstuff99]

This is a hood video of mistakes when trying to 'make an outline'

 

[Cob Life]

I also think this depends on a child being quite advanced in their riding.

I'm going to buck the hho dogma of ride it forward and it'll go in an outline...it might work with a generous schoolmaster but anything that has an educational requirement will not necessarily. I think you have to start by teaching the horse how to yield to the bit. They have to understand the aid before they'll work out the correct response.

Then, pick up your contact. A horse needs to feel the contact in order to respond to it. A horse that tucks its nose in without this is generally not through, and while it might be on an outline, it's not "on the bit"
Then for me, if the horse hasn't read the manual, and hollows, leans or generally doesn't get it, it's a case of feeling where you have resistances and working through them while keeping the horse between leg and hand. (This is where the "from behind" bit comes from IMO and you have to assess this against the horse's natural paces and balance because being too ambitious can put them off balance and then worse in the hand). The resistance may be in the jaw, poll, neck or back, ribs etc or just in the horses mind. And using whatever exercises are appropriate to untangle those little "no"s. But you do need to use your reins imo. If you don't then your horse will never figure out that the bit has a purpose for communication.

This ^

we do loads of transitions, circles etc and get them thinking forwards then I start to ask with my hands and this is where I find I differ on each horse.
Blue likes fairly still hands but if he gots heavy I give and retake with my inside rein, one of the others is happier if I move my ring fingers very slightly alternatively but they must keep going forwards, written down it sounds easy but I can guarantee Blue has tried every evasion in the book before it clicked! He used to manage a few strides, now he can happily do 5 or 10 minutes in walk and trot, canter still needs more work.