How does kissing spine happen and success stories..

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EquestrianFairy

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It seems my boy has kissing spines, quite suddenly from nowhere. X-rays will confirm but he's showing all the clear signs. I am gutted.

Can it just suddenly happen?
 
I owned a little mare for four years who was sensitive but never showed any signs of KS. She was one who always carried herself in a slightly tense short outline, but that was how she was naturally in the field. She competed BE and did reasonably well, being very athletic and with good natural balance. I sold her as she was too small for me to ride and I wanted her to have a long term home where she'd be appreciated for what she was. She was then reschooled and worked in a much less tense frame, the difference in the way she went was dramatic, she was scoring even better at dressage than she had done as she looked able to relax and to look at she was almost unrecognisable from the muscly compact little thing she'd been. Then the problems started and eventually they got a diagnosis of KS.

She'd passed a really tough vetting when I sold her and had I had any inkling that she had any sort of problems she'd have stayed with me as a pet, she was the horse I'd dreamed of when I was a teenager and a sweetie to have about.

I am strongly of the opinion that changing the way she naturally went made a difference to her back. I have something similar to kissing spine myself. Only a strict upbringing of always sitting up straight and never slouching, combined with old-fashioned ballet tuition has kept my back from causing me no end of trouble.

I don't believe it suddenly happens, I believe in some cases it's due to a change in the horse's management and/or the way it's ridden. So if you've changed something in your horse's management over the past months then I'd suggest changing it back to how it used to be and seeing if, given careful reconditioning, he reverts to his old self.
 
It is thought to be a combination of genetics, getting older and POSSIBLY a different way of going...I had my lad for 2 years before he was diagnosed but horses are very stoic about pain so really he could have had it all his life???
 
My vets think my boy had some sort of trauma that kicked it off. Two processes touching he was in a lot of pain and luckily I knew his behaviour was completely out of character I had only owned him 6 months. It's been a long old job as I lost my confidence badly but we are all sorted now the experience has made me a better rider and he is just awesome.
Hi op was Oct 2012.
There is a brilliant Facebook Group 'Horses With Kissing Spines' you should join. Everyone has had different experiences and different journeys.
 
It is unheard of in New Zealand. I had to google it when I started reading this forum, as even after 40 years of horses, I had never heard of it.
 
NZJenny said:
It is unheard of in New Zealand. I had to google it when I started reading this forum, as even after 40 years of horses, I had never heard of it.
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That's interesting as I searched James Rooney's (DVM) book, The lame horse, for KS and found no mention of it except that (he writes words to the effect of) the overriding of the spines of thorasic vertebrae may be seen on X Ray but that it is not (as previously thought) a separate entity but is the result of excessive dorsiflexion of the spine.

ps. Sorry op I have no direct experience of kissing spines and wish the best for you and your horse.
 
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Just had 1 of mine diagnosed last week, by Professor Denoix, world expert on equine locomotion. He recommends mesotherapy for KS, and it is not expensive. He is not in favour of surgery. Mesotherapy is the route I'm taking. PM me if you like.
 
See, I'm such a sceptic, the minute I see things like "world expert", I wonder which world and how one qualifies for that. Amandap, I have never found it in a vet book either.

And what is mesotherapy?
 
My mare had the symptoms as a yearling. It took years for the vets to work out what was going on. I suspect it was the result of a fall over backwards that I witnessed, but will never really know. Certainly it wasn't incorrect work or age... her relatives and siblings are out doing endurance and racing so it's unlikely to be genetic.
 
NZJenny said:
See, I'm such a sceptic, the minute I see things like "world expert", I wonder which world and how one qualifies for that. Amandap, I have never found it in a vet book either.

And what is mesotherapy?
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Well, he didn't tell me that! Various people in the industry did.
Here's a bio: http://www.equinesportsmassagetherapy.co.uk/blog/professor-jean-marie-denoix-dvm-phd/
Umm, I wasn't aware there was another world...

Here's an explanation and picture of mesotherapy. Interesting, and obviously a lot less invasive (and expensive) than surgery. http://www.bevet.com/services_and_treatments/services/mesotherapy/


KS has even been observed in rhinos. It is something quadrupeds with large heavy guts that pull the spine down are susceptible to, I imagine. The %age of riding horses with it, showing no apparent symptoms, is quite surprisingly high.

You've never found it in a vet book? Really? I just reached for the one nearest to me on the shelf, Capt M Horace Hayes FRCVS - "Veterinary Notes for Horse Owners", 1987 edition (yes, not exactly at the cutting edge of modern vet medicine) and it is in there, pages 269-70.
 
NZJenny said:
It is unheard of in New Zealand. I had to google it when I started reading this forum, as even after 40 years of horses, I had never heard of it.
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And largely in North America. It's known by not the go to diagnosis it seems to be here.

It's not new - I have a book from 100 years ago discussing it - but obviously much of the change is in ease of diagnosis.

As to the idea it comes on 'suddenly' I'm not convinced. It's either bony changes or conformation, depending on the details. Neither changes over night. But conditions always reach critical mass at some point. I think the usually is some change that brings things to a head but considering horses are organic and things are always changing, there is an almost infinite number of options.
 
kerilli said:
KS has even been observed in rhinos. It is something quadrupeds with large heavy guts that pull the spine down are susceptible to, I imagine. The %age of riding horses with it, showing no apparent symptoms, is quite surprisingly high.
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So it should be quite common in brood mares ??? And if they are showing no symptons, how do you know that apparently lots of horses have it? And all due respect to Horace, but I think we have moved on since 1987.

See here's the thing: Navicular is one of those things that horses have been getting for years. But no one has every really identified exactly what it is or what causes it. I have seen a horse being pin fired and for years it was an acceptable treatment for horses.

I wish you luck with your horse and I hope everyting goes well. However, like I said, despite 40 years of horse ownership, I had never heard of a case of it here and still havn't, yet it seems to be very common in the UK. So how come?
 
kerilli said:
KS has even been observed in rhinos. It is something quadrupeds with large heavy guts that pull the spine down are susceptible to, I imagine. The %age of riding horses with it, showing no apparent symptoms, is quite surprisingly high.

.
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That's interesting. Some people were encouraging me to breed from my mare because she's got some great bloodlines and was basically retired at six years old. I didn't because I couldn't see how it could be fair to put a mare in foal that had such a problem with her back. It seemed logical to me that it could cause more pain.
 
NZJenny said:
So it should be quite common in brood mares ??? And if they are showing no symptons, how do you know that apparently lots of horses have it? And all due respect to Horace, but I think we have moved on since 1987.

See here's the thing: Navicular is one of those things that horses have been getting for years. But no one has every really identified exactly what it is or what causes it. I have seen a horse being pin fired and for years it was an acceptable treatment for horses.

I wish you luck with your horse and I hope everyting goes well. However, like I said, despite 40 years of horse ownership, I had never heard of a case of it here and still havn't, yet it seems to be very common in the UK. So how come?
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The only one I know of here was a young pony that was seriously overworked for age and broke down was blamed on having KS (not sure where the diagnosis came from however). Saw it a few years later back out eventing looking fine.
 
KS may be common in broodmares, but since the symptoms don't usually show until they're ridden we're not going to know.

There are a number of reasons we may be seeing more of it now. In the TB population especially it could be genetics, the gene pool is small and the overriding trait that's being picked is 'fast'. That's already changed the pelvic girdle such that intervention (caslick's) is needed for mares to remain infection free and hold a pregnancy. I don't know if that tilt in the pelvis is squashing the spinous processes or if the size and shape of the spinous processes has changed, along with the pelvis.

Years ago, an unrideable horse was sent to the knackers. With so many more in 'pet' homes, and with insurance and improved diagnostic techniques, the preferred choice is to find the 'why' of the behaviour.

OP, my own TB who had kissing spine had never had a good experience of being ridden. She was started in a racing yard and thought of as tricky. She was sold to my friend who sent her for breaking. When the roller was put on she threw herself on the floor, bucked like stink and ran through the arena fence, breaking her nose. When ridden she attempted to scrape the rider off up the side of a wall, was tense, miserable and terrified.

She was then diagnosed with KS and had the op, two processes removed, then she was given to me. Rehab was started and then she went lame with navicular syndrome. Shoes and pads and good farriery solved that. She's now unshod and sound and two years after the op is being started again. She's being ridden, whilst she's sensitive and over reactive, she's not showing any signs of pain or discomfort. She has a kind and generous temperament, thank goodness. The worry had been that as she'd never had a good experience of being ridden she would not be able to overcome the fear and remembered pain. Frankly, I'm amazed by her. There are lots of success stories out there. While some people are sceptical, if the treatment for KS spine is the only thing that has been done and an unrideable horse becomes rideable, then one can only assume that the KS was the problem.

Good luck with your horse.
 
Thankyou all.

It's a fairly fast turnaround for me.

He fractured his pelvis as a youngster and when I got him (5yo) we spent lots of money on physio to correct it as best we could.. Within 6 months he was as level as possible and never showed signs of problems since. He's always gone to the back of his stable to be tacked up but he's done it since we had him so I've always put it down to remembered pain from his pelvis. He's also always been a little narky about being girthed, I have a professionals choice girth so bought the best I could afford.
Saddle always checked every 6 months and same physio who treated him in the beginning also every 6 months without fail.

He went on loan and came back a few weeks ago, had physio out and she noticed a sore spot along his spine, days after he wasn't happy to be ridden initially, hunching under saddle when Mounted so had saddler back out and a new saddle fitted.

Whilst he doesn't now hunch he is very nappy which again isn't like him, he is also normally a giraffe pony but his head is almost constantly to the ground which is slightly unnerving as if he did decide to buck there's no neck there!

Had vet out yesterday for various issues and two things came to light, he was very reactive to palpitation (dipping away from it but not upset about it- no face pulling etc)
- and his hind is flaring on the inside causing him to walk toe-in.

It's all so sudden regarding his back, I'm gutted truth be told.
 
NZJenny said:
However, like I said, despite 40 years of horse ownership, I had never heard of a case of it here and still havn't, yet it seems to be very common in the UK. So how come?
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In NZ, if a horse has behavioural problems under saddle, do they commonly take back x-rays? I'm trying to work out whether NZ horses don't suffer from kissing spines at all, or if it is a case that they are just not being diagnosed because back x-rays are not being done?
 
NZJenny said:
So it should be quite common in brood mares ???
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Yes, but nobody's trying to ride them, so I very much doubt their low-grade pain is noticed. They get sway backs though, and I'd suspect that a sway-backed horse's DSPs get closer together, and possibly impinge.

NZJenny said:
And if they are showing no symptons, how do you know that apparently lots of horses have it?
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I know that lots of horses have it because in studies, a surprisingly high (imho) percentage of lame horses (but not necessarily horses showing clear back pain) were found to have KS. There have been lots of studies, here's one, the first I found on Google:
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/28562/kissing-spines-common-but-not-career-ending-aaep-2011

I've heard percentages of 40% and even higher.
The rhino example is a classic - an animal that has obviously never been sat on, never asked to work in an outline, etc. It seems that DSPs of that shape + a very heavy gut pulling the spine down can cause this.

NZJenny said:
And all due respect to Horace, but I think we have moved on since 1987.
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Yes, of course we've moved on since 1987... exactly my point, thank you!
I didn't quote from the book, I mentioned it because when you asserted that you had never heard of it in 40 years, and "never found it in a vet book" I was boggled, since I found it immediately in the first one I picked up, 27 years 'out of date'!
This isn't a new thing. I had a horse operated on for it back in about 1991...

OP, we were told last Friday at the lecture/demo that horses with back pain will often go in a high outline ('a giraffe pony' as you said) because that way they can get the pain constant and deal with it. (my mare was doing the same, took a lot of persuasion to get her to round her back and step through, and then she couldn't always maintain it.) I do the same when my back is bad, I try to lock the muscles, because it's easier to endure than a stabbing pain. If your horse is now going with his head very low he is at least pushing the DSPs apart more in that position...
Don't despair, there are treatments, ways and means of making them more comfortable. :)
Good Luck.
 
TGM said:
In NZ, if a horse has behavioural problems under saddle, do they commonly take back x-rays? I'm trying to work out whether NZ horses don't suffer from kissing spines at all, or if it is a case that they are just not being diagnosed because back x-rays are not being done?
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I just googled "Equine Vet NZ kissing spines" and the first two things that came up proved that it is known in NZ. (of course!)

https://www.facebook.com/CanterburyEquine
specifically this image, a little way down the left column of the page:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...65669031.91145.239621686090449&type=1&theater

and

http://www.equinetherapy.co.nz/back-problems-xidc77054.html

So, I don't think NZ horses are superhorses which never suffer from this condition... unfortunately.
 
My boy was diagnosed with kissing spines in 2011, i was 'gifted' him in 2010 so no vetting done etc. i rode for a few months and he soon started napping and getting anxious when his saddle was put on, got the vet up and he could tell immediately, xray done and yes severe kissing spines, not just touching but fused. He told me that the reason he had it was most likely because he was backed so young (he's an ex flat racer) luckily for me he's just a naturally nice horse and even with a sore back never bucked or reared, just had a miserable air about him.He was operated on in the June (3 processes removed) and after the rehab I was back riding in October. He's still funny with saddles no matter how much i get them and his back checked by multiple people! But he's much nicer to ride and a lot more eager. I've never heard of it just coming on all of a sudden, there are a lot of people who say after the operation if they have time off it can come back. My boy had to have a good few months off in 2012 because he tore his DDFT, his back didnt change, he saw the vet that did his surgery and she was thrilled with how good his back was!I just want to say don't let it get you down, a lot of people think it's the end but it's not, i found surgery to be the best option and have never looked back in any kind of regret.
 
To be fair to the NZ contingent, I think it's more a comment on the fact that clinical KS seems to be endemic here now and the feeling is it requires immediate and significant intervention in all cases.

This might indeed be the case. Time will tell. But the fact that horses have worked successfully in the past and continue to work in areas of the world where the thinking is different suggests that there is a middle ground in there somewhere.

Perhaps KS is just a fact of life and comes to us all? In which case do we treat horse prophylacticly? Or only when they are symptomatic? What about when it's not clear if the problem is the back? I don't think there is one right answer
 
I think some horses have it and cope, some have it and it slowly develops to a point they can't cope. They develop a way of going that is comfortable for a time or for good.

I also believe that it's advances in veterinary diagnosis that make us more aware.
As my horse was new to me after a break from riding I put some of the quirkiness down to new environment etc. when the quirkiness became downright dangerous I knew that something was wrong.

I had to ignore a few...he's a rogue, he needs a job, gallop him in a ploughed field comments but it didn't take much effort to ignore them.

Someone even told me that he was probably riggy and it was because there were mares around.

But no he was in pain, a lot of pain I went straight to vets you know the old have you checked saddle teeth back scenario. It's what I did.

He is a lovely horse with a beautiful temperament and a big heart. It was keyhole surgery and both of us had confidence issues but we got through it and came out the other side.

It has been really hard work but he has been worth the effort and tears and has made me a better rider too
 
Hope you boy does not have kissing spine but if he does I do have a success story. Our boy was a nightmare, difficult to handle, impossible to hack, take out etc. He was diagnosed with KS in October 2012 but they proved to be a short term fix and in February 2013 had the full op on four impingements. We followed the recovery programme to the letter and we have never looked back. He is the sweetest horse with a lovely temperament who must have been in terrible pain.
A year after the op he went cross country schooling and is now back out eventing.... You would never know he had ever had an issue.
My daughter is on the Facebook Group for Kissing Spines..
Good Luck with him... Do put updates on his progress.
 
To add to this, don't think anyone else has mentioned saddle fit as a cause of KS but it may well have been the cause of my horse's KS. Before I owned him he had a made to measure saddle that was fitted to his high withers with heavy over stuffing and was probably too big for him,repeatedly dipping sway from the saddle can lead to impinging processes.

Currently very happy in a semi flex saddle and had some real success with treatment from a holistic vet.
 
Were 5 wks post op had T15,16,17 removed, also had SI joints and hocks injected and we also have SL damage.KS horses quite often have other things going on. There is a mixed opinion on the cause,conformation,trauma ,their way of going. I've had Darcy 2 yrs and was poor lacking muscle and hadn't done much for sometime. When I look back all the signs were there but you just think "she's unfit,lacking muscle , bit green, stubborn ,excitable ect " she really seamed to go down hill after being in over winter and level of excersise dropped off wasn't quite right sore back ,more nappy. It's not the end look at the Horses with KS on FB lots of advised and success stories. Rehab is intense but hopefully it will be worth it :) good luck xx pm if you want .
 
My ex-racer had 5 impinging spines and had 3 removed two years ago. He also has sacroiliac issues. After all the rehab and doing everything slowly the most I have been able to do with him has been 5 mins of trot work. He is too sharp to be a light hack so now he has joined my other retired horse as a very expensive pampered pet.

I think the fact that he was broken at 18 months and raced as a two year old had a big part to play as did his conformation (v short backed). He was also ridden in a terrible saddle before I got him aged 7. I managed to get him looking really well and when I took him to the vets with a hind leg issue no-one thought he had a problem with his back until it showed up on the scintigraphy scan.

Management is key and a good dose of luck.
 
My boy has kissing spines - he was vetted when I bought him & never showed any signs of pain and it wasn't until he went to Rockley for rehab on his feet that it was discovered as he was not putting on any weight or topline despite being in work. Got the vets out to scope him for ulcers and they said it was kissing spine, not ulcers and x rayed him & found that he had 7 fused DSPs under where the saddle went. It had obviously been like this for a very long time, but it explained why he couldn't build up muscle as he couldn't actually move that part of his back. He was operated on the same week he came back from Rockley and had 4 processes removed - that was in June 2013. I started riding him again in January of this year and he feels so much better. He has put on lots of muscle and is able to work through from behind now though it is hard work for him as he's now using muscles that he couldn't before. I have done 3 32km graded endurance rides on him, dressage and have started jumping him, all with no problems so far. I do have the physio check him regularly also. So far he seems to be going from strength to strength. He is an ex racehorse and his KS were probably caused by being ridden at too early an age as his looked like they had been squashed and looked like mushroom tops on the x rays. Thankfully he did not display any of the usual behaviour associated with KS so no remembered pain to contend with.
 
Busybusybusy said:
My boy has kissing spines - he was vetted when I bought him & never showed any signs of pain and it wasn't until he went to Rockley for rehab on his feet that it was discovered as he was not putting on any weight or topline despite being in work. Got the vets out to scope him for ulcers and they said it was kissing spine, not ulcers and x rayed him & found that he had 7 fused DSPs under where the saddle went. It had obviously been like this for a very long time, but it explained why he couldn't build up muscle as he couldn't actually move that part of his back.
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My experience was exactly the same. I have one horse who was excellent working, would always place at eventing and hunter trials., but couldn't get weight or muscle on properly. It only came to a head when he came back from winter holidays and got extremely narky and his coat got bald.

Got x-rayed and it turned out to be kissing spine. Vet said he'd been in pain for ages, but most horses just get on with things and live with the pain. The KS had become unmanageable for him because he's been on field rest and lost whatever muscle was stopping the pain being excruciating. I'd well believe horses have it and people don't know. Looking back the only sign he gave was tension in canter and certain moves. I would have put all my money on it that it was ulcers, but he was clear of them and only the xrays showed the cause.
 
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