how hard is to hard?

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mountainview22

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I'm looking for opinions, how hard/rough is to hard/rough?

I know it's a very touchy topic, but during basic handling training, is pussyfooting around the answer?

Or a stern telling off for double barreling enough?

Please note, I am not saying to beat or not to beat. I'm looking for opinions for no reason other than interest after some comments I've recently heard.
 
Horses, like all animals, like fair, consistent handling. Sometimes this means you have to be firm but not rough.

A horse that kicks out usually does so for a reason - and beating them won't result in a change of behaviour, just a venting of anger or fright by the person in the firing line.

Without knowing the specifics though it's hard to comment.
 
Personally i think it depends on the horse.
My girl is very sensitive and all i have to do is raise my voice a little & she knows she's done wrong.
The little sec a on the other hand sometimes needs a good shove back if he misbehaves.

I've had both of mine from youngsters so they have been taught from day 1 how to behave so theres no need for rough handling. :)
I always prefer to by youngsters for this reason - can't stand bad manners! :(

ETA: i don't pussyfoot around any horse, they have to get used to everyday life and trying to kick/bite/barge me is not it!
 
I'm not sure if I understand you on the right terms... You're basically asking how hard/strong you should be with handling?

I 100% use the reward system and ignore the bad. If I did this all the time with my 2yo welsh cob though, she'd start to take advantage. The firmness I use with her is a pretty gentle shove in the shoulder if she attempts to walk too fast when leading, I just lean my body weight into her shoulder, make her stand and think about her actions :p then she proceeds perfectly.

In the field she gets in my personal space too much, but I don't have to use any force, just takes a tap on the chest and voice command for her to move back and out of my space.

My ex racer is very polite, she has moments where she will just switch and I have to be careful with where I stand... But once again, ignoring and giving her a moment is what's best. If I used force I'd just add more minutes to her cool out time as it would stress her even more.

Funny really, a horse used to bite and kick at college... He strangely enough, without knowing the student would only do it to the ones he knew would hit him for it. I used to love getting him ready, he'd test you and throw legs and teeth but if you don't flinch and talk to him, he turns into the most loving horse ever.

A horse does not understand being told off, to them, their actions are always always justifiable. So we gain nothing. I've seen people train with horses that are shire size and learnt their size... Force isn't their technique either. God, if they used force they'd be in for a game against a shire...
 
Sorry Fiona, late night and early morning :rolleyes:

The general opinion seems as I suspected worded differently.

I can't go into alot of detail, but my reply the the main comment/request was simple, a horse is a big animal, respect and training are the only things that will allow you control, you won't often out strength a horse and I'm un willing to try.

It's hard to describe the situation or an improvised situation, but in general, what are your opinions of screaming/shouting or some sort of physical contact to gain the animals respect?

It's very hard to word I'm sorry it doesn't make for easy reading.
 
Totally agree on the 'outstrength' thing and it amazes me how many people think they will get a long way with brute force. I think shouting, screeching, flapping and slapping about can generally just inflame the situation.

But horses for courses and all that.

However, I have squared up to a big, bolshy cob that just had no respect or manners (owners were lovely but not clued up about discipline and manners). He'd walk all over you/through you given half a chance. I put myself in front of him (slightly to one side) made myself as big as possible and 'shooed' him out backwards out of my personal space whilst telling him (not shouting) loudly and firmly to get out of my space and learn some manners.

Worked for him but if I'd behaved the same way to my old Sec D, he'd have wet himself and ran for the hills!

I think you have to adjust to each horse accordingly - but shouting and flapping or brute force rarely achieves anything IME.
 
mountainview22 said:
Sorry Fiona, late night and early morning :rolleyes:

The general opinion seems as I suspected worded differently.

I can't go into alot of detail, but my reply the the main comment/request was simple, a horse is a big animal, respect and training are the only things that will allow you control, you won't often out strength a horse and I'm un willing to try.

It's hard to describe the situation or an improvised situation, but in general, what are your opinions of screaming/shouting or some sort of physical contact to gain the animals respect?

It's very hard to word I'm sorry it doesn't make for easy reading.
Click to expand...


I just think it must be horrible for the horse. God, imagine being one yourself. Some odd looking creature, coming up and making a loud noise that makes no sense, combined with physical aggression...

In fact, I'm shocked at how many horses put up with this. Only time I've shouted at my welsh is for a joke when I see her charging up to the wheelbarrow to push it over. She kind of knows though as she drops her head and canters up to me to say sorry... SO I guess they can respond to shouting, it can depend on the situation and I am usually laughing when I shout at her so probably doesn't count...

Anyway I'm just babbling now, sorry :p
With regards to handling in that way though, not one theory back it up. It does not aid in allowing the horse to understand, it does not allow the horse to 'calm' down with whatever is going on and it does not allow the horse to see us as a leader when we are trying to use our tiny little force against them.

If you notice the pecking order in the field and how they communicate, it's mostly body language and things usually sort out before anything too physical happens.

You can train a horse to change their gait simply by breathing when you lunge, so if they are that sensitive to body language, what must aggression do?
 
Taffyhorse said:
Totally agree on the 'outstrength' thing and it amazes me how many people think they will get a long way with brute force. I think shouting, screeching, flapping and slapping about can generally just inflame the situation.

But horses for courses and all that.

However, I have squared up to a big, bolshy cob that just had no respect or manners (owners were lovely but not clued up about discipline and manners). He'd walk all over you/through you given half a chance. I put myself in front of him (slightly to one side) made myself as big as possible and 'shooed' him out backwards out of my personal space whilst telling him (not shouting) loudly and firmly to get out of my space and learn some manners.

Worked for him but if I'd behaved the same way to my old Sec D, he'd have wet himself and ran for the hills!

I think you have to adjust to each horse accordingly - but shouting and flapping or brute force rarely achieves anything IME.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, but it's very positive compared to brute force or flapping like you say. By making yourself bold, you're coming across confident in what you're doing and reminding the horse that it's not okay to take advantage. I like this kind of firmness. No flapping involved :)
 
Depends entirely on the horse really. Being either too hard or too soft isn't constructive.
A yard I worked at had a tb who'd been severely beaten in a past home, & being a big lad had learnt the best way to avoid being hurt was to attack anyone threatening. For example if you groomed him loose in his box, he'd pull faces & snap the air & swish his tail, which if you ignored would go no further & generally ended up with him totally relaxed. But if you tied him up short & even raised your voice, let alone hit him he would have put every effort into going for you. But on the surface, the best way looked like being too soft.
At the other end of the scale, I also knew a very stroppy mare who was used to being in charge. If she put her ears back at you, a swift 'oy' & making her move over or back away would immediately get her respect. Whereas if you ignored it, she'd threaten to bite, then bite you, then get handy with her back end to see how far she could get. But with her, what seemed to be an over reaction to just putting her ears back was the kindest way to deal with her.
 
mountainview22 said:
It's hard to describe the situation or an improvised situation, but in general, what are your opinions of screaming/shouting or some sort of physical contact to gain the animals respect?
Click to expand...

I get told all the time what a delight my horse is, how well mannered he is, how easy to handle. They're right, he is but he knows that I expect good behaviour! Good behaviour = heavily rewarded, bad behaviour is dealt with immediately. As a result I can't even remember when I last raised my voice or had to correct him :)

It really does depend on the horse though, with mine I keep things very quiet, very non-confrontational but with the other horse I handle on a daily basis - he is still at a stage in his (re)training where I need to be more 'in his face' about things. He is a horse that was very nearly pts for being dangerous and unpredictable to handle; he wasn't, he was just so used to having no leadership that he had to take control himself.

Yes I've shouted at him, yes he's had a smack when I was in danger of being injured. He's a 17.2 Irish boy and he just doesn't do 'subtle' at the moment - it will come - however he is a much much calmer, more settled boy when he knows what is expected of him :) We'll get there, if you have a clear definition of what is acceptable/not acceptable and are consistent then they do figure it out eventually :p

For me, rather one smack or shout than a hundred niggles. Rightly or wrongly, it works for me :)
 
I learn all about this from the best teacher( s) in the world a mare who was senior in my group I have just copied her and it's stood me in good stead.
 
Depends on the horse and what they have done. When I hadnt had the yellow pony for very long and he didnt have many manners for various reasons yes I would be a lot harsher than I am now. He wouldnt stand still tied up so every time he moved for the first few weeks he was put back exactly where he was before, ott maybe but now although he moves he doesnt run round in constant circles like he used to. He also went through a stage of biting people so he was bitten back the first time he did it to me and he has never done it to any one again *prepares to duck for cover*.

He is now generally a very polite horse and I can trust him to be handled by any one no matter how small or nervous. He does occasionally need a little reminder after he has been done by my parents a few days a week as mum tends to just feed him so he can become a little monkey but nothing that a few mins reminder doesnt solve. When he gets nervous he can be a bit ruder but its only generally at competitions with a bigger athmosphere than he is used to but I have no doubt that with time he will be better.
 
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