How important is a 'correct' position??

[NewHeights_SJ]

Recently i've had some training with a different trainer and yesterday he proceed to take my riding apart. Now, i know i have alot of bad habits and most likely will never look perfect in the saddle, and whilst he wasn't horrible to me i did fnd it a little disheartening. However, i proceeded to show him that we we're both very capable at SJ, jumping 1.30 (which is the biggest ive ever done!! YeY) and him finishing the lesson by saying he was very impressed.

So, i guess my question is - how important do you think it is that a rider rides 'correctly'? I've seen *alot* of sjers who have a terrible position or an altogether very 'different' style yet are very effective riders. On the flip side, i've seen some very correct riders who have problems.

Obviously the ideal would be to have a mixture of both. I'd appreciate your thoughts....

 

[Rachel1]

I can only speak for dressage (but assume it applies to any discipline) that having the correct position is sooooo important! How ever effective you are you will always be 100 times more effective if you sit correctly and you'll find it so much easier to apply the correct aids. Anna R-D has really drummed this into me and she picked my position apart when I first went to her and it has really made a huge difference. Particularly as you move up to the higher levels, and if you don't get into the habit of sitting correctly at the lower levels you'll find it so much harder to adjust later on.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Between/on approach to fences I believe position is critical.
Over the fence as long as the rider doesn't interfere with the horse in any way (balance, freedom etc) then i dont think it matters a bit provided you can get the correct position back quickly on landing.

 

[LEC]

My horse cannot jump at the moment due to his back so I am having my riding pulled apart which I have never really had done and I have been riding for 22 years. I have been going through agony using muscles in a completely different way. I have had a lunge lesson and a position lesson and found them really helpful in improving my seat. I am hoping this will pay off in the SJing with my lower leg and seat being much improved.

 

[NewHeights_SJ]

TF - It was actually on the flat that he took my position to pieces, aparently over a jump (on approach and landing) i am "a different rider"....

 

[Weezy]

Oh Fee you sound like me! My instructor thinks it is hilarious that I sit far, far better between fences than I do in a flat lesson - ask me to engage my horse in canter in a flat lesson and I struggle, but when I am jumping I am far more effective - go figure!

 

[pinktiger]

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I can only speak for dressage (but assume it applies to any discipline) that having the correct position is sooooo important! How ever effective you are you will always be 100 times more effective if you sit correctly and you'll find it so much easier to apply the correct aids. . if you don't get into the habit of sitting correctly at the lower levels you'll find it so much harder to adjust later on.

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DITTO THIS ^^^^^^ SO TRUE!!! position is weight distrubution/balance/effective aids/ comfort for the horse/stickability/we owe it to our horses to be sat fair!!!

 

[mistered]

stand at any BSJA show and you will see a multitude of styles and until recently i thought, as a general rule, that as long as you rode consistantly (adopting the same position) on approach, your horse, given time, would adapt to you style, however...

...recently our area arranged a training day with susie gibson. She taught a cross section of riders and horses ranging from real novice riders and young riders just off ponies to a couple of international riders.

having taken part in the first session I stayed to watch the remaider of the sessions. The entire content on susie's lessons (1hour 15mins) was geared towards improving each riders position - on the flat, over single fences, related distances, dog legs etc etc. the difference in each horses techniques towards the end of each lesson was amazing.

Each horse and rider combination did exactly the same drills and could not move onto the next element until they had perfected the previous.

i know strongly feel that the only way to unlock your horses potential in the ring is to sit correctly. Spend some time at a national or international show watching the collecting ring, the successful riders have many things in common.

 

[seche]

Sounds like I need her help!
I think a good firm solid lower leg is essential! cannot stand leg swinging - thuogh I am probably guilty too!

 

[conniegirl]

personaly i think an effective position is much more important then a perfect position.

My sister's position is never critisised no matter who teaches her, however ask her to get a lazy horse going forward or sit a bucking napping horses protests or indead an uncooperative horse going round and on the bit then she just cant do it.

Me however i have a hideous position and i'll happily admit to it, I have a habit of pointing my toes, riding with my legs to far forward (not hugely but deffinately too far forwards), i also tend to look down and ride with my hands too low, when im nervous i grip with my knees. However i can sit bucks, i can get a lazy horse going forward and i can get a horse going in a proper outline.
so is it realy that important that your position is perfect?

 

[Rachel1]

I would bet my life on it that your sister would be an even better, more effective rider if she had a perfect position. Ask any olympic rider and I am sure they would say the same thing. That's my opinion anyway, for what it's worth!

 

[PapaFrita]

I'm sure a correct position makes things easier for horse AND rider but in the case of SJing it's also about having a good eye for a stride, a feel for the right canter, etc. There are a lot more variables when you're jumping than in other disciplines and of course you're right; plenty of very successful SJers have unconventional styles

 

[KatB]

"position" in the classical sense isnt the be all IMO, balance and feel is....

 

[Rachel1]

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"position" in the classical sense isnt the be all IMO, balance and feel is....

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Yep you definitely need those too, I guess what i think is that you should always work to the ideal (which I know is not easy) so that you can be the best you can be. And if someone had the perfect position, balance and feel then they would be one hell of a rider!

 

[KatB]

Yeah agree, and in some cases position is compulsory to a point to get balance and feel.... but not eveyone fits the "stereotypical" shape needed for a classical position...

 

[dressager]

Again, coming from a dressage aspect... I think position is very important. If you cannot be conscious of your body at all times and control yourself then how can you expect your horse to do the same, when the aids originate from the rider? The ideal riding position has developed over many years for a reason, not just to make our lives harder. I cannot think of any (dressage) riders I admire who do not have an enviable position.

With regards to bucking... some horses do actually buck if they feel unbalanced or the aids are not given appropriately so that is worth thinking about. I know this well, I have a youngster!

 

[conniegirl]

Dressager i think thats a very narrow way of looking at it.
Disabled riders are not always in perfect control of thier bodies, but look at the para olympics most of them can get a far better tune out of a horse then i can or will ever hope to get. I certainly admire all Disabled riders and thier positions are not perfect but they get on with it and get good results from thier horses.

If you watch some Videos of showjumping in the past then you'll see alot of people in the arm chair position that was favored quite alot on the hunting field, it certainly did its job and is very very far removed from the dressage position of today and even from the modern jumping position.

Perfect position is a matter of opinion and if you can get a horse going well then what does it matter if your leg is 2 inches to far forward or if your heels rise up a bit particularly in jumping.

 

[TarrSteps]

Obviously there are many factors that go into making an effective rider and then end result is a collection of the parts but that's not the same thing as saying the parts are unimportant.

Think of it like a cumulative construction - each "skill" or "ability" (position, education, feel, balance, reactions, fitness, horsemanship, competitive desire - many, many factors) is put into the pot in whatever amount and it's having all of them, in the largest amount that makes for the most success. That doesn't mean having a lot of one can't make up for having not much of another - many people succeed at lower levels that way - but it does mean that someone with a great ability in one area who also works to develop the weaker areas won't succeed best in the end.

Added to that the other partner, the horse, that may be more or less able to absorb a rider who is less than ideal. Some will have a rail every time if the rider drops back, some have enough scope and strength this is never an issue. Most horses these days are not jumping anywhere near their maximum scope so can put up with all sorts of deviations, which, of course, doesn't make it a good situation. Riding well is not only a short term benefit but it can, over the years, impact on how sound and enthusiastic a horse remains. Of course, since there is rarely a direct cause and effect it's easy to miss the connection some times.

The top riders in the world are remarkably homogenous these days. There used to be all sorts of "odd balls" with unusual styles but really, you hardly see that these days. There are a still few people with odd habits that don't really affect the horse and even a few who are so talented in some ways they get away with things, but these people are not the norm. At the top end almost everyone is a good talent and a hard worker, in varying amounts. Most of the top riders I know have done - and continue to do - a great deal of work on their riding. As mistered said, position can make a big difference to a horse's form and no one (hopefully) wants to have a rail because of something they could have worked on!

I thought it interesting the younger Whittakers were dispatched to ride with an equitation trainer in the US for a bit. I have my issues with the greater subject of competitive American equitation but at the top end it produces lovely, correct, effective riders. (These kids also tend to catch ride a lot and are effectively young professionals so obviously the best get opportunities to put form into function a lot!) Of course the Whittakers (and Jan Tops, Emile Hendrix etc) have also taken in promising North American young riders - which only goes to show how important those people think developing ALL the skills is to making a well rounded rider.

 

[dressager]

I do not agree that there is a "perfect position" which involves sitting still and not moving. Position is dynamic and should change accordingly, of course you move your leg back to give the aids for a half pass, or initiate a turn by slightly moving the shoulders and lengthening that side of the body. But once you have given the aids your body should assume a resting, more passive position so you are not constantly nagging the horse or hindering movement. The horse should carry the rider, with the rider using minimal effort.

As Rachelskeff pointed out, you do not see top dressage riders with bad positions. And as she also said, dressage riders always strive for the ideal, why not have a good position if it will help the horse?

I have never discussed position with a disabled rider, but I imagine they utilise their weight to compensate for their disability, and actually I think our top disabled riders have very good positions, balance and feel. I have no idea if they train the horse from scratch (I know Lee Pearson is very involved with day to day training) but the whole point is, we recognise the fact it IS more difficult for a para rider than for an able bodied rider who can maintain a position easily and apply equal aids from both sides of the body etc.

Not all riders are the same body shape or height which is why everyone will look slightly different in the saddle. Isabell Werth looks totally different to, say, Hubertus Schmidt, but I can appreciate they both ride with correct and effective positions, which results in their horses going well.

 

[Booboos]

I think the mark of a great rider is that they have a great position independent of the horse. The riders I admire just sit there correctly as if they are saying "I am in the right place and won't be affected by the horse being crooked, being on the forehand, bucking, etc.", the horse has to balance itself under them rather than the other way round, i.e. a crooked horse throwing a rider off to one side.

 

[CrazyMare]

Correctness and effectiveness are linked to an extent. Yes some very correct riders don't achieve alot, and equally some effective riders don't look correct in the classical sense, however I personally feel those at each end of the spectrum are rareties, and the more correct a position then the more effective the rider can manage - on the whole. Standard diviations and probabilities tell us that there are always extremes and differences.

A rider who is not correct in that they look down and lean forwards does not enable their horse to transfer its weight to its hocks and work from behind as their weight is being carried over the horses shoulders.

When I'm teaching friends I always go back to position and often find that just while working on getting the rider more secure and correct in their seat and aids the horse responds by going better as they are more able to.

 

[ann-jen]

Fee - first of all 1.30m!! Wow!! Well done that is HUGE!

As far as position is concerned - I do think it makes a huge difference - I have a whole range of faults that I'm trying to improve on but the main one is trying to stay behind the movement - or at least not being in front of it. Trying to sit up and feel Jenny take off before folding. If I sit up and keep the weight into my heels and don't get ahead of the movement I get a fab jump whereas if I forget and fold too early or lift my hands on the approach (I used to be really bad for this but only do it once in a blue moon now) -->crappy jump. I don't sit like I would in a dressage test in between fences but I do sit in a much more upright position than I used to because as my instructor says - I can't influence the length of stride if my bum isn't in the saddle. Which isn't all that easy if Jen puts in a big buck LOL! She has suddenly decided that if we need to do a flying change it is essential to buck when changing behind.

 

[Partoow]

Position is vital.
a good position , regardless of the legth of stirups = balanced, we need to be balanced to be able to feel the horses balance, or lack of. The rider , [ still , is relative to the horse ,stiff is 'stuck' and does not require poise] is therefore the reference point for the balance and the challenges to balance the work we do represents.
Every step the horse takes = a change in balance , a good position is dynamic , it has poise and enables the rider to effect change in the horses balance.
No matter whether you are doing dressage , jumping or hunting you will reduce fatigue and injury if you are able to develope this poised position.
You will be able to 'feel'.
The difficulty is it is hardwork to develope and even people who you think make it look easy will spend hours perfecting it. There is no end to the development of a good position as it is challenged by every horse we sit on and every 'ask' we make.
many trainers are 'lazy' and will not go down the route of exploring the improvement of position as it is mentally exhausting taking people apart and rebuilding their bodies and their learnt muscle memory without destroying them.
The horse will do exactly what you ask from it if you are really asking with your body and using that to effect a shift in balance...
You only have to see all those SJ riders looking at the fence to their left with their heads but their body is stuck to the right, loosing the shoulder and then failing to make the turn.... hmmm

 

[NewHeights_SJ]

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Fee - first of all 1.30m!! Wow!! Well done that is HUGE!

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Haha thankyou!! It was huge!! But Fee made it feel easy!

An interesting set of replies...i wasn't expecting so much response!!