How important is yard safety?

[Mr_Ed]

I'd be surprised if everyone didn't answer this as " very!" - but I'd hate to second-guess.

What I'm trying to find out is your experience of the safety competence of those who run yards or riding schools.

It would be nice to find out what sort of safety training those people have received, but I guess in many instances many of us won't know. We are more likely to see it in the results of how they and their staff manage their businesses on a day-to-day basis. However, if you are someone running a yard, and have received any safety training, what form did it take, and was it any good?

Safety is really just good practice, and should be part of the business. There are some out there who do it very well and some who are appalling.

One personal example comes to mind: when I moved to a new livery yard, on the surface everything seemed fine. The horses were all in stables within an enclosed barn. However, shortly after I moved there I noticed some cigarette butts in the barn. Then I saw one of the livery owners actually smoking. I was going to have a word with the yard owner -- who also came in smoking. I voted with my feet, and very quickly.

Yard safety is paramount to me. What are your thoughts?

 

[serena2005]

im on a livery yard, not sure about any training, but YO's are quick to ask questions about people riding others people horses when owners arent around, for saftey reasons.

theres first aid kit in the kitchen, and notices up everywhere saying we ride at our own risk, theres no smoking on our yard and no dogs and no way a horse could get out of the yard

 

[Chex]

I know my YO hasn't had any safety training, but they are just setting up, so maybe it'll be done at some point, especially as they're wanting BHS approval. There is a no smoking rule, absolutely no smoking in the barns, and preferably not it in the vicinity of the yard. The yard is probably not very safe, due to it being a working farm, there's bits of machinery everywhere, mad sheepdog and its generally a bit of a mess! Obviously though if I believed Chex could come to any harm I wouldn't keep him there!

The YO is a nurse though, which comes in handy!

 

[airedale]

leaving machinery around is a definite NO

smoking also - allowed in own cars in car park - that's all

no climbing onto anything - stacks of hay, etc - forbidden

no use of any electrical equipment unless connection supervised - i.e. trimmers or whatever and earth leakage thingy needs to be used and shoes are checked to be rubber.

no interfering with anyone elses horse and no handling anyone elses horse

only permitted to feed titbits to own horse - and ONLY inside it's own stable so as not to wind up the rest.

no borrowing of anything from anyone unless both lender and borrower both present

no riding in anything other than approved hat

no jumping without body protector worn

no jumping without an adult on site

no riding out without leaving word of route and taking mobile

no leaving gate at end of drive open

etc etc etc

all is written down in a formal H&S contract that accompanies the livery contract

plus no riding in shorts/trainers !

 

[Vicki1986]

I think stipulating YO have formal/documented safety training is just more red tape TBH, on a subject that really is just common sense. My yard doesnt have any strict rules as such and i know my YO's dont have any formal training either, for anything, but by christ they are the best YO's ive ever known in respect to first aid and handling a crisis.

 

[Mr_Ed]

Common sense is not always so common to someone who may be young, or inexperienced or doing something new for the first time.

If you employ someone, providing safety training is a legal requirement and makes good business sense.

I hope we can get past safety being just "red tape". Take the example of turning a horse out. There's a safe way and an unsafe way to do it. Doing it the safe way minimises the risk of being injured. Is potentionally stopping someone being injured by providing knowledge to protect them through training just "red tape"?

 

[Vicki1986]

This is very true and i think in the case of youg or 'newcomers' to the industry as it were, this would be a very sensible approach. but i cant see already well established, more senior YO/YM's going on courses so they can display a certificate on their wall! not saying i agree with that point of view, but i think a lot of them wouldnt do it unless mandatory and even then perhaps not. I think a YO would know a safe way to turn a horse out and if they didnt they shouldnt be handling a horse let alone running a yard!! that example sounds a bit BHS to me.

 

[no_no_nanette]

There are increasing numbers of farmers who are getting into the livery business - many of whom know next to nothing about horses, and often don't care! Our YO would have very little idea about how to catch/TO a horse, or deal with one in a crisis. So we are VERY reliant on the other liveries. Our livery is great for the people and for the freedom that we have (no bossy/intrusive YO) - but the flip side is that there is very little understanding of safety. Examples : tractors fly around the yard too fast; no salt provided when hard standing ices up in the winter;track down to fields like an ice-rink when it rains; electric supply to fences often fails ... I could go on! We stay because the horses are incredibly happy and settled, and the liveries are all great. But I think there is a real need to have at least minimum standards for livery yards; I just hope that it doesn't lead to a whole lot more expense and red tape!

 

[Christmas_Kate]

TBH most of the yards I've been on have been owned by at least a BHSAI. I've never been on a 'posh' yard, all have allowed smoking (except current yard, but it's a private yard and I choose not to). Nowhere's 100% safe, accidents do happen. The more 'regulated' the yard, the higher the livery prices, which leaves lots of room for cheaper livery yards, where safety may be compromised. It's all down to what people can aford to pay for. And no good saying that people shouldnt have horse unless they can afford a good safe yard, it just doesnt work like that.
Some yards go OTT, which I suppose is for insurance reasons but gone are the days when we used to ride bareback from the fields and have a rope swing from the dutch barn roof over the hay stack.

 

[Vicki1986]

i think in that sort of situation safety standards would be very useful and neccessary. but for example i cant see my yo (who has run racing and hunting yards all his & her lives) being instructed on how to T/O a horse - if you see where im coming from!

i think guidelines sent to yards are a good idea but as for compulsory training etc, im not so sure. i mean its like the BHS approved yards etc - a lot of yards arent and choose not to be - so by having safety standards (which i presume the BHS approved livery yard scheme already provides) there will be no difference to yards which choose not to comply and ones that do choose to comply will probably be up to standard anyway

i agree safety on a yard is paramount, especially where children are involved, but it is down to a horse owner to decide where they wish to keep their horse and if it be on a yard that has unsafe proceedures which they disagree with then probably best to move to another yard!

 

[Vicki1986]

couldnt agree more Kate26. i miss the old days of riding bareback from the field etc. sitting on the highest of haystacks to eat lunch as a child!

 

[OWLIE185]

Any business must carry out an annual Health and Safety Audit, COSH Audit and Fire audit.

Therefore the yards you keep your horses at must keep dated records of the audits and the results of them. If they do not do this and there is an accident which is reported to the authorities or insurers then they will ask to see records of the audits.

A new business needs to carry out the audit before opening and then at least every year.

The Health and Safety executive will not accept ignorance of the legislation as an excuse.

 

[dwi]

[ QUOTE ]

no borrowing of anything from anyone unless both lender and borrower both present

no riding out without leaving word of route and taking mobile



[/ QUOTE ]

You can't borrow your friends's wheelbarrow by prior arrangement?

I do leave notice of my route and I try to take a mobile but I like to reserve the right to ride without it if I forget to take it to the yard. I don't really think its any of their business if an adult chooses to ride their own horse off the YOs land. A mobile is no guaruntee, the reception near us is rubbish and I'm always convinced that I'll land on my mobile and smash it.

I wouldn't stand for someone telling me I couldn't ride my horse if in my adult judgement the risk was acceptable. The worst injury I've ever had was falling down the stairs at home, riding is a risk sport and you aren't going to stop yourself from breaking your neck because you took your mobile

 

[Mr_Ed]

There is a very real danger of misleading those reading this thread.

The HSE lists 10 things on their website that you must do if you are a business.

Audit is not mentioned.

see: http://www.hse.gov.uk/smallbusinesses/must.htm

An associated document - An introduction to health & safety for small businesses - also does not mention audit.

see: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg259.pdf

The important point is to identify and manage risks. Monitoring is key but this is often best undertaken by a yard owner which can be achieved through minimal training.

Therefore I have to suggest that you are wrong in what you say.

Even the Management at Work Regulations 1999 state under Regulation 5 (1) "Every employer shall make and give effect to such arrangements as are
appropriate, having regard to the nature of his activities and the size of his
undertaking, for the effective planning, organisation, control, monitoring and review
of the preventive and protective measures."

Control and monitoring are the key. But if I'm wrong then do point me at the legal requirement for audit you mention.

Sorry to all involved with this thread for going into so much detail but health and safety really isn't that difficult and it's not about red tape and certificates on walls but about protecting people from harm and in our case our horses as well. It also keeps businesses in business. Kept in proportion and managed sensibly it really does save lives - or a lifetime of incapacity. So let's be careful not to frighten people with it.

 

[Llwyncwn]

Last March I was away from yard for a few hours. A time served livery with lots of experience put hay over a field gate (not in middle of field) and all the horses galloped to the hay. A yearling was cornered and tried to jump the gate, the gate collapsed and the yearling was impaled and died shortly after (with help of vet). I am responsible for this as YO. The livery in question had years and years of experience. I had made it known that any hay in field was to be put away from gates and fences. The buck still stops with me though. Common sence aint common.

 

[teapot]

Having worked in a medium sized BHS yard and still ride there - so know both sides. Following rules are there

No smoking obviously anywhere in the yard
Anyone under 18 - BPs to be worn for flat, jumping and hacking. Those over 18 - jumping only

Hat at all times whilst riding.
Livieries under age of 14 to wear hat turning ponies out
Lessons - kids now get on and off in the school so they're not getting on/off onto concrete (rubber arena surface is nicer to land on if anything happens)

Livery children arn't allowed to ride on their own. Definately not to hack on their own either

Trying to think of what else. Anyone under 16 must be under adult supervision. Not allowed to run around the yard, approach ponies unless asked too

I worked there before and after a lot of the safety things like the BPs for jumping rule came in. Having seen the fall that was the final straw - can understand why the yard brought it in for everyone including staff members

I think they're being safe and then there is being stupidly over the top

 

[PeterNatt]

We regularly have Health and Safety Officers attend our premises and they require to see evidence that we are complying with the various requirements.

By carrying out regular documented audits we can demonstrate this and therefore minimise the chances of them serving a notice on us.

 

[Mr_Ed]

Quote: I think they're being safe and then there is being stupidly over the top.

Thanks for your comments teapot.

On the latter part of your sentence "then there is being stupidly over the top"; I agree with your sentiments completely.

Sometimes, out of fear of litigation, someone makes an irrational decision to prevent an activity taking place without making a proper assessment of the risks. Sometimes this isn't completely their fault as they haven't been trained on how to correctly undertake risk assessments - they look at worst case scenarios without taking into account the combination of likelihood and severity amongst other criteria.

Another reason may be that someone external to the business, who has limited or no knowledge of equestrianism, may look at an activity and declare it dangerous. That decision often goes unchallenged.

Let me give you an example. A couple of months ago I was at a conference where part of the conference was on a practical basis in a riding school. One of the UK's top trainers was giving a practical demonstration on jumping. A member of the audience challenged the trainer saying that they had been told that they could no longer use ground poles for safety reasons. The trainer swiftly responded by saying in his 20+ years of teaching/training many thousands of horses and riders he had only ever had one accident caused by a horse stumbling and going down on a ground pole - resulting in the horse being off work for a couple of months. Therefore, based on this information the likelihood is low and severity low -- medium, making it a reasonably low risk. He further went on to add that it is the professionals who have to make these assessments taking into account many varying factors which can alter day-to-day.

I can only suggest that when there is "stupidly over the top" those professionals who work in the industry and are the experts in their field need to challenge such decisions and come to a collective view.

 

[Mr_Ed]

Peter, thanks for your comments.

It's commendable that you're taking Health & Safety seriously and apparently have good systems in place. I'd be interested if you could add a little clarification and amplify on who the Health and Safety Officers are; i.e. Local Authority inspectors, HSE inspectors, insurance representatives, approvals inspectors, consultants and probably more!? How often do they visit you?

Who undertakes the audits and in what form are they?

I'm sure you'd agree that a documented audit isn't in itself evidence that relevant legislation is being complied with. Managing safety requires active involvement and safety isn't just a paper exercise. Notwithstanding that comment there is absolutely no doubt that record-keeping provides part of the evidence to support that safety is being effectively managed.

It's an interesting perspective that you come from - and fully understandable - about minimising the chances of having notices served upon you. I'd look at it in a slightly different way that you are minimising the chances of serious accidents occurring and all of the associated unpleasant fallout from such accidents.

 

[Mr_Ed]

Just going back to the provision of safety training, which by the way doesn't cost the earth, I'm aware of three sources of safety training:

Warwickshire College/Equistudy run a Vocational Qualification Level 2 course - "Health and Safety with Horses" - see:

http://www.warkscol.ac.uk/equistudy/equistudy/coursepage.asp?courseid=9

Keits (and I'm sure others) offer safety training as part of their National Vocational Qualification courses - see:

http://www.keits.co.uk/index.asp?id=93&IDside=1&section=Horse+Care&set=1

And I know in the past that the British Horseracing Board have also sponsored dedicated health & safety training courses.

I just wondered whether anybody else knows of any other safety courses on offer?

 

[Dovorian]

BHS Approval is not necessarily a guarantee either! Of course all may have been perfect for the inspection but the worst yard I ever had a horse on was BHS approved - so bad they put 1 small bucket of water into a field of 4 with no other source of drinking water + only checked it once a day!

 

[OWLIE185]

We seem to have been adopted by an inspector from the Health and Safety Executive who has paid us regular visits over the last few years (every 6 - 9 months).

It has proved to be very useful and interesting and keeps us all on our toes.

 

[Mr_Ed]

The visits from the HSE sound very useful. I'd be interested to know a little more if that's possible?

Was their attention drawn to you because of any particular problems?

Which sector is your business in? Usually the HSE only visit racing establishments or agricultural premises.
Riding schools come under the remit of Local Authority inspections.