How lame is too lame?

Clodagh

Clodagh

Playing chess with pigeons
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My old companion loan (sort of!) horse has got very lame. He has been retired for 10 years with back trouble and front hoof lameness but now his hocks have got very stiff. If he has been resting he can hardly move, it is sad to see. I spoke to his owner who got him 14 days worth of danilon and it has made such a difference and made me realise how depressed he had got, as it was gradual I had put it down to old age. He is much brighter now and going around with the other two a lot more.
His owner doesn't want to get more bute, he says he has had a good retirement, which is true, and he will be off to the kennels. I now feel awful for him, he is a nice old boy and very useful to me so I could get my vet out and get him a box of bute, perhaps, that would at least give him the summer. Can't decide what is best for him, he can't go on without pain relief but even on the danilon he is lame, just not as much.
So, how lame is acceptable!?
 
Tough one, horses vary some are more stoic about pain. Sounds like he is a brave one. I would want him to have a lovely field of long grass for a few days at least before the final good-bye. If he is moving around ok on the 'bute then a summer out would be nice for him surely.
 
He's only going to get more lame, and suffer more pain. It's not temporary, it's chronic, and it's degenerative.

If he is still lame on danilon, then even after being pumped full of drugs, he hasn't got a great quality of life.

Tbh, I think his owner has the right idea, he has had a long and happy life, and he's only going to go downhill.

Saying goodbye is always sad, but it sounds like it's the right thing to do, he's an old chap, let him go before he suffers more.
 
I think you are right hnmisty but like pp says it would be nice if he could have the summer. I think I will go with the owners recommendations and not argue the toss but he has coped OK all this poxy winter and it seems unfair he has got worse now the sun has come out!
 
I wanted one last summer with Obi but he told me in March that he'd had enough.

They let you know when it's time.
 
If he is bright in himself, like he was on the danilon, then I think a bit of lameness is fine. However, if he is to have no pain relief, then it's time to let him go. Personally, I would fund the danilon myself in your shoes, if, as you say, he is useful to you etc. When he no longer looks happy on danilon, then he needs to be PTS.
 
I read about your Obi, it was sad. It has to be the time they choose, not the time we decide I suppose.
 
Wagtail said:
If he is bright in himself, like he was on the danilon, then I think a bit of lameness is fine. However, if he is to have no pain relief, then it's time to let him go. Personally, I would fund the danilon myself in your shoes, if, as you say, he is useful to you etc. When he no longer looks happy on danilon, then he needs to be PTS.
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I agree with this, if he were mine I would be letting him have the danilon and at least let him have the summer, we have had quite a few old horses at our yard on it and they have had several good years, that they would not of had without it!
 
I believe, and having a horse with lameness issues its one I've thought carefully about.
If its not obvious that the horse has had enough (in a way that everyone says you will "know") then resting a front foot would be one- most horses don't rest front feet- I know some do but if its out of the normal then this would be a sign to me that its time.
 
Agree with above.... I dont believe in pumping full of drugs "so they can have the summer".
 
It's his quality of life that matters.....very lame means he is in pain and as he doesn't think like humans - he lives in the moment - I would have him -pts....Personally I would have him pts at home and then let the huntsman collect his body.....less stress FOR HIM!!
 
Alyth, he has hunted hounds for years in his youth so going to the kennels won't be stressful for him.
Anyway, I have got my vet coming to see him and will decide from there. He doesn't rest a front hoof and in fact now that he isn't obese, as he was when I got him, he isn't too bad in front, a bit scratchy on hard ground perhaps. He has cheered up so much on the danilon that it seems worth getting a professional opinion.
I am lame but would prefer not to be shot!
I assure you I will not take it any further if the vet advises not. I will keep you informed.
 
wench said:
Agree with above.... I dont believe in pumping full of drugs "so they can have the summer".
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Why not? We do it for humans. Some days I am in a lot of pain and have to take strong pain killers. I can then happily go about my day. I don't see why it is so bad giving animals pain killers so that they han happily live in retirement. :confused:
 
I think either the kennels or the bute is fine, if the bute keeps him happy and comfortable. IIWY, I'd try the bute for a bit longer but if the horse still displays signs of discomfort - just better than he is without the bute isn't good enough, he needs to be moving around comfortably - that's when i'd personally call it a day.

ETA, just read the OP again, if he's still visibly lame on the danilon, I wouldn't be persevering down that line, sorry.
 
If the pony can be kept on painkillers and seems happy in itself, can still wander round the field, eat, drink, get up and down and socialise with its friends I wouldn't be wanting to pts because it was lame unless it was obviously distressed.
I'd have been shot years ago with my dicky foot/knee etc. but it wouldn't be my choice.
 
Wagtail said:
Why not? We do it for humans. Some days I am in a lot of pain and have to take strong pain killers. I can then happily go about my day. I don't see why it is so bad giving animals pain killers so that they han happily live in retirement. :confused:
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That is what I ws thinking, I can hardly get out of bed some mornings but once I am up and walking I'm OK. Nurofen is my friend. I can't run very well either (am only 43, God knows what I will be like if I make 80!) but I am happy and still work, ride and do everything.
I feel that I have a benchmark now - before the danilon he had started standing on his own a lot, not even following the others if they went down the other field (only for a few days, I wouldn't have left him any longer like that), but now he is with them all the time and is much brighter.
The vet looked at him last year and was happy with him, he has got worse since then but I will see what they say.
 
wench said:
Agree with above.... I dont believe in pumping full of drugs "so they can have the summer".
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see, I don't believe in doing it so we can keep them in work but if the horse is happy (ie eating, content, not being bullied, able to interact etc etc) then I think its ok to give them the summer. I couldn't do it for my horse, had to have him PTS in March but if I could have without risk to his health and happiness I would have done.
 
Wagtail said:
Why not? We do it for humans. Some days I am in a lot of pain and have to take strong pain killers. I can then happily go about my day. I don't see why it is so bad giving animals pain killers so that they han happily live in retirement. :confused:
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We have a choice Wagtail; we can make that choice, an animal depends on us to make the right choice for it and we should always look at quality of life without pain as a first step.

FWIW I would never keep something going that always needed medication as it was lame/unwell without it.
I know it's hard OP but I do believe the owner is very right in this case and anyway, many times the summers are as bad for them as winters with the hard ground (which certainly won't help his joints) and pesky flies too; it can be the final misery for them rather than the happy time we imagine.
 
Wagtail said:
Why not? We do it for humans. Some days I am in a lot of pain and have to take strong pain killers. I can then happily go about my day. I don't see why it is so bad giving animals pain killers so that they han happily live in retirement. :confused:
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Exactly my view if the people looking after the horse are happy to medicate it why not .
But on the other side I also have no issues with people who PTS.
However given OPs description of how stiff the horse is behind I would not be asking it to travel.
 
That is a point, GS, perhaps when his time comes it would be better done here. I hadn't thought of that.
Vet in an hour.
 
Maesfen said:
We have a choice Wagtail; we can make that choice, an animal depends on us to make the right choice for it and we should always look at quality of life without pain as a first step.
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So IF a horse could choose, and it could be kept comfortable with bute, and was bright and happy in itself like the OP has said this horse is (on danilon), you honestly think it would rather be shot?

FWIW, I don't think we should bute a horse up just so it can work, but if it is retired, why ever not? Other than cost, of course.
 
But OP says it's still lame on Danilon, just more mobile than without it. That doesn't strike me like a happy medium. If it is still lame that means it's uncomfortable so the only one you're helping in this case is yourself, which is selfish.

I totally agree that it should be PTS at home, it shouldn't have to travel if it's uncomfortable but if it's going to the kennels, I'm sure the hunt staff would do it at home for them and then remove.
 
Well vet was inconclusive! (of course).
She thinks a lot of his problems all stem from the front foot lameness and he has adapted his way of going for so long the extra wear then moved backwards. She thinks an intensive couple of weeks on pain relief might improve his way of going and therefore his mobility. So, he is on 2 bute a day for a week, then slowly cutting down.
We shall see. He didn't look too bad trotting up on the grass.
 
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