How long is it fair to leave a dog in a create??

she has room of her own 99% of the time Tia, and I really don't think she would like it outside in a kennel - she would sit there shivering and barking - although we can't really test it out to be fair.

Like Soots says - all dogs and people are different. A person on here who has given me some fab adivice advised me to get a crate - and i'm glad we did! Just a shame we abused it today, alltough she would have been just as upset left in the house and not in the cage.
 
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one is prison and the other is freedom.

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Sorry Tia but i totally have to disagree with you - How is being in a outdoor kennel freedom??? I think given the choice i would rather be somewhere nice and cosy if small in my house than out in the cold in my yard! IMHO they are both prison - so is my office but life is sh*t! We have to pay for Star's hols!
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Mine aren't locked up though. Not in any shape of form. They have free access to outside 24 hours a day and we do not have a fenced in garden - they have the run of the farm.

That was not my point though. A kennel/run allows normal movement and exercise - a crate doesn't.

A dog is a dog - a dog is not a human and even if they were, a tiny house is not comparable to a crate. A small cupboard with no toilet facilities is far closer.

Life is what you make it. I think life is great
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My dog wouldn't last a week as an outdoor dog.

I know that Buckybee has a Spaniel (right?) and they are potentially outdoor dogs, but every dog is different. When we walk in winter, I'm the one who has to drag my dog outside and get her moving; she'd much rather be on the sofa curled up in front of the warm pipes.

I know we're getting away from the issue of crates -- and god knows, many people do abuse them -- but, from working in a NY rescue shelter, I have met many nervy dogs, dogs that voluntarily go in their crates and hang out there for hours chewing on a toy or simply dozing.
 
She has a Short Haired Pointer.......so a little less tolerant to the cold......I have 2 dogs crated at the moment in my house and my back door is wide open, so are their crate doors......neither have moved from their crate in the past 4 hours
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......ones a colli and ones a Wire Haired Pointer..............Every one has different circumstances and beliefs.............Like I said we simply would not beable to rescue without them........used correctly they are great.....and give dog esp those from previous rescue situations a great sense a security.
I have 2 dogs in a kennel with big runs.....neither even venture from the kennel.......I cant kennel any of the others as they would bark the place down
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We have had alot of people simply ready to re-home or PTS their dogs through destruction...........I think a crate is a far better option.......as PROSE said most well behaved house dogs dont actually move from their beds when left so basically a crate is just a bed in the shape of a crate........used correctly I think they are fine.
There are some great toys and long lasting treats u can leave in the crate to keep a young dog occupied.....which I think is very important when leaving for a dog in a crate for a period of time.

Crates dont have to be permanent.........once a destructive/messy dogs learns to spend time in a space alone where it does not have the opportunity to be destructive.......it does not seem so daunting to be gradually let in a bigger less enclosed space without displaying unwanted behaviour....but it does take time.
I think in general we more commonly work out of the home environment.....and although its not ideal its life.
 
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My dog wouldn't last a week as an outdoor dog.

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Oh I expect she would last significantly longer than a week. Providing she was not eaten by any critters, I'd say she would last years and years. She would go outside to go to the toilet when she chose to do so. If she didn't want to, then she would stay inside - it would be her choice and she wouldn't be dragged anywhere. I expect she would have the time of her life; playing for as much of the day as she wanted and snuggling up throughout the night...or not as the case may be.

I'm into allowing as much freedom of choice as is within reason and encouraging animals to make certain decisions themselves. I guess that's why I cannot bear people having hamsters and guinea pigs and rabbits shut up in cages....mind you comparatively speaking I guess a hamster has a massive space compared to a dog in a crate.

Of course that is my opinion; if others think it is acceptable then that's their opinion. There is a big difference between an animal chosing to go into their bed ..... and being physically locked in.

Yes I agree; this subject has wandered slightly. Buckybee is no doubt doing her best for the dog under difficult situations....but she did ask for opinions.
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My dog wouldn't last a week as an outdoor dog.

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Oh I expect she would last significantly longer than a week. Providing she was not eaten by any critters, I'd say she would last years and years.

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Well, you know nothing about Boston Terriers. As a single-coat breed with little body fat, they cannot tolerate cold for any period of time. It would be downright cruel to keep one in an outdoor kennel. And I don't "drag" my dog anywhere; if I used it at all, it was simply a turn of phrase.

I know my dog couldn't have a better life than the one I give her.
 
yes of course crates are invaluable - as an aid to toilet training - for safety in the car or indeed to keep a youngster safe for SHORT periods - it is however - in my opinion- wrong to shut a dog in its crate and go off to work -I find it amazing that there are folk on here that justify this ? - this is not some stuffed toy but a living sentient intelligent animal - it may well give up and sleep because it has no other options but how right is that ?.

I am a little surprised that a rescue facility keeps dogs in crates for long periods - do you not have kennels ? - ( a minimum requrement I would have thought for any rescue centre
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- ) - how can these dogs be socialised or allowed to express normal behaviours ? -


No-one forces you to take on a dog - if you cannot provide at least the basic care needs then simply don't take one on until you can -
 
I must say I am a crate convert! Our dog's breeder recommended we got one and I must say I found it invaluable, as Milor says, for toilet training, in the car, to keep her safe when left for short periods, etc. However, I am home everyday and the pup had companionship and freedom to exercise most of the day. Now she is older we don't shut the crate door and as soon as she sees me put my coat on she goes into the crate and lies down of her own accord! I have heard people say that dogs in the wild create a den area where they feel safe to spend a lot of time sleeping, and because of that being confined to a crate for a dog is much less unnatural than a grazing animal like a horse being confined to a stable.

My main concern with crates is that it seems some people use them to keep a pup when they don't really have the lifestyle to do so, and keep the pup confined for long periods of time. My personal opinion is that if you take a young pup away from it's mother and litter, you need to compensate by giving the pup the reassurance of your company and attention. If people are using crates to lock a pup all day on its own whilst they go to work, then, in my book that is wrong.

However, in the case of rescued or problem adult dogs, then if the use of the crate can help prevent problems and stop a dog being PTS or passed on and on, then I think they are a good thing, although still care must be taken to ensure they are not abused.
 
I have to agree on the whole Tia..even to point that we have guinea pigs and keep them in a stable instead of a cage
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and the fact I don't stable my horses. Unlike dogs in crates, a horse has to walk and sleep where it wees and poos!! How gross must that be....
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My personal opinion is that if you take a young pup away from it's mother and litter, you need to compensate by giving the pup the reassurance of your company and attention. If people are using crates to lock a pup all day on its own whilst they go to work, then, in my book that is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]I think that if this were the case then there would be MANY people that couldn't have dogs... not everyone is lucky enough to work from home/work part time ....

I think crates are an excellent thing... both our dogs are in them, Tinker is in an actual crate the biggest you can buy and Finn is in a play pen!!
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Tinker would mess everywhere if left out of the crate and shred whatever he can find, gets up on the sides (it seems) and generally be a menace.

Finn would chew .. not every day he is left does he chew but occasionally - he chewed through the aerial cable for the TV!!
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(which I didn't know was fixed to the wall behind the futon - OH's house) so immediately the decision was made to crate the monkies whilst we were at work.

Also it does stop them becoming boisterous and one of them getting hurt or the chance that one might get fed up with the other and lash out!!!

I would class neither dog as naughty - but give temptation and they may get carried away and chew etc

Saying that I go drive 25mins home each lunchtime to spend 10mins with my boys, let them out and have a quick play and then drive 25mins back to work.

They are crated from 7ish til 12ish then 1ish til 4ish .... and obv overnight.

Neither dog is fussed they have toys/bones/water and a comfy bed - all they do is sleep. They do big yawns and wake up when we come home!!
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In the summer they are in the garden all day - however I still go home at lunch to have a squish and a play
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Tinkers crate in background.
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Finns playpen side in background. (4 sides)
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But at least Finn had Tinker for company when he was tiny, and you do go back at lunchtime to let them out. Whereas to leave a pup crated all day with no human or canine company seems very unfair.

I like to think of a crate for a puppy as like a cot for a baby. You put them in them overnight, and for short periods during the day for a nap and you can be secure in knowing that if they wake up without you knowing they are not going to get into trouble or danger.
 
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But at least Finn had Tinker for company when he was tiny, and you do go back at lunchtime to let them out. Whereas to leave a pup crated all day with no human or canine company seems very unfair.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes actually I do agree with that - a single puppy/dog should have human company - I would have hated Finny to be home alone... however when Tinker goes out with 'daddy' finn just settles down in his beds and sleep, Tinker on the other hand, when Finn leaves cries and then gives up.
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I like to think of a crate for a puppy as like a cot for a baby. You put them in them overnight, and for short periods during the day for a nap and you can be secure in knowing that if they wake up without you knowing they are not going to get into trouble or danger.

[/ QUOTE ]LOL - that I much prefer calling Finns 'cage' his 'puppy play pen' sounds so much more humane!! LOL!!
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Funnily enough we have a huge outside run for the dog. When the chickens finally died we dismantled our existing dog run and changed the area where the chickens lived into outside dog accommodation. It is like a courtyard between the house and a row of outbuildings, with fences at either end. One of the sheds has been made suitable for dog use. So, you have a lovely, sunny courtyard area opening onto the garden, with a lovely big airy shed with beds in, or a cage in the house. Guess which Morgan prefers...
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QR - a lot of you are saying as if she is left all day everyday which is totally not true! she was left for a long time yesterday becasue the person coming to pick her up couldn't get in the house. Normally she is left for 4 hours max twice a week which I really don't think is unreasonable.

It's great for Tia having a massive big farm for her dogs to roam freely but unfortunaly not many people have that privilage. If only people who don't work/work at home and lived on a farm there had dogs there would hardly be any dog owners left!

I understand that our situation with Star is not ideal - but that doesn't mean that she doesn't get as much love, attention and excercise as any other dog. give us a break! I am trying. I think suggestions would have been better than just 'Thats not acceptable and "that is cruel" if someone would please give me a sensible alternative of what to do woth her when we go the work then i will happily try it!
 
As you say her normal routine is a max of four hours left......and that fine.....you/your brother could not get into the house one day to see to her......you know now you wont let it happen again.

She was obviousley less stressed than u at the thought of being in the crate that long....otherwise she would have shredded her bed and messed in the crate/barked the house down.....which Im sure the neighbours would have informed u.
 
Buckybee, this is from the American Dog Trainer's Network:

"Crating Duration Guidelines


9-10 Weeks
Approx. 30-60 minutes

11-14 Weeks
Approx. 1-3 hours

15-16 Weeks
Approx. 3-4 hours

17 + Weeks
Approx. 4+ (6 hours maximum)



*NOTE: Except for overnight, neither puppies nor dogs should be crated for more than 5 hours at a time. (6 hours maximum!)"


It sounds as if you're working toward integrating your dog successfully into the house, and won't need the crate forever. I actually hate zoos and circuses, but don't have an issue with crates when they're used properly i.e. maximum time four hours, which is what you usually do.

A better assessment of how things are going would be to ask how many hours of exercise a day your dog is getting. If you meet/exceed the GSP's requirements, well, that's surely fine and dandy.
 
Well as a non-funded rescue.......so not actually rescue center......we manage fine with the crates infact the majority of homes that we re-home to did indeed trawl the rescue kennels in their words(filthy unpleasant places to keep dogs) these are places that people see dogs bouncing up at the bars....with unbearable noise levels.....circling and demented/with very little if any stimulation.

When they come to us they see our rescue dogs playing together in a large area......and see the dog room.....which contains their crates.....which they stay at bed time and during times they cannot be supervised........It would be to dangerous to leave these dogs together unsupervisedI/ we choose not to kennel them..... in my opinion in a rescue situation having a majority of dogs kenneled causes all sorts of behavioural problems.
Our dogs go out well adjusted to fit into a family life.

I think with the problems/reasons they come into us......and the time we spend re-habilitating them.....residing in a crate up to 4 hours a day and over night or being PTS is the least of their problems.

Alot of dogs we get in are not house trained.....because they have been in a kennel......I damn sure me/my mam/or our forsterers are not going to have dogs crapping all over our houses when there is a simple solution to the problem.

We re-home more dogs because people dont want them from a kennel environment.....as most people work and some of those choose to rescue a dog..........Its far less stressful for our dogs to be re-homed with their crates it makes the transition period less stressful for the dog.....although the environment changes they still have their little security den/crate.

When our emmaciated greyhound was dropped off at 11pm at night the greyhound rescue man..........commented on how quiet/well behaved the rescue dogs where at my mams.....as they where all in their beds/crates
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as opposed to his kennels.

And believe me if a dog does not like to be crated they dont just give up because there is no choice....they destroy the bed/defecate/urinate/bend the bars/and bark the place down.
Much the same as a dog that is kenneled.......I have known many a dog chew/dig its way out of a kennel only to escape and cause/be involved in a serious accident.

Everyone will have their reasons for and against.....some just have more choice/option than others.
People have to work.....this does not mean they should not have a dog.
 
Just for a bit more info on the US crate training method. I read an article on the net, by a very well respected(US) protection/guard dog breeder and trainer. He says, "No-one, not even my own family, approaches any of my dogs and strokes or talks to them. I alone feed, train and crate them. Without me, they are lost. They are caged most of the day, until I decide to take them out and they are gratefull, only to me."
Well, that just about says it all.
 
Damn milor you got me – that’s just why I got a dog so I can shut it in a cage all day so that it appreciates me when I let it out – what other reason would I want a dog for???

For goodness sake, that guy is obviously a nob but are you saying “it says it all” about all dog owners who use a crate at some point in there dogs training?? Be reasonable please.
 
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Just for a bit more info on the US crate training method. I read an article on the net, by a very well respected(US) protection/guard dog breeder and trainer. He says, "No-one, not even my own family, approaches any of my dogs and strokes or talks to them. I alone feed, train and crate them. Without me, they are lost. They are caged most of the day, until I decide to take them out and they are gratefull, only to me."
Well, that just about says it all.

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That guy is obviously a knob. I don't know of anyone who leaves their dogs in the crate all day long.
 
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That guy is obviously a knob.

[/ QUOTE ] Nicely put, Prose
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. Just because some cretins use crates in an abusive manner doesn't mean that everyone else who uses one does!
 
Yep............this guy is an individual and certainly will not make up the WHOLE OF the training institute......you will always get muppits like this.......certainly does not count for the majority.
 
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In the summer they are in the garden all day - however I still go home at lunch to have a squish and a play


Call the RSPCA, she's squishing her dogs in her lunch hour!
If you really must carry out this barbaric ritual a quick scrunch is a much kinder option
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no ..I'm saying "it says all" about some American crate training methods in response to the American recommendations posted on here ....keeping dogs crated for very long periods is much more acceptable there than here - possibly because it is an 'instant ' solution to a problem and does away with the irksome task of actually training your dog !- I do accept that crates have their uses - after all I crate my dogs when they are in the car ...or to keep them safe for SHORT periods ....but locking them up whilst you are at work is just plain wrong....as your experience shows ,anything can happen to delay your return and the poor animal remains unable to move freely, without access to water or able to relieve itself unless, in desperation, in lies in it's own mess.
 
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QR - a lot of you are saying as if she is left all day everyday which is totally not true! she was left for a long time yesterday becasue the person coming to pick her up couldn't get in the house. Normally she is left for 4 hours max twice a week which I really don't think is unreasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]That is certainly NOT unreasonable and she is a VERY lucky dog!! - As I said above my dogs are left all day apart from a quick squidge and cuddle at lunchtime (which takes me round trip 50mins)
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I understand that our situation with Star is not ideal - but that doesn't mean that she doesn't get as much love, attention and excercise as any other dog. give us a break! I am trying.

[/ QUOTE ]STOP RIGHT THERE!!!
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Don't let ANYONE make you feel like you need to justify your 'routine' with Star... you are a FAB owner and my boys would LOVE to have someone there 90% of the time... for us though that is not possible... for you and your OH it is and that is wonderful!!!

Star is VERY lucky and at no point have you been cruel.... you didn't plan to leave her in the cage all day - you made provision for her to go out/be collected unfortunatley these things happen and sometimes plans don't always work!!

She clearly wasn't bothered and just slept her way til she heard mummy/daddy coming home. xxx
 
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Call the RSPCA, she's squishing her dogs in her lunch hour!
If you really must carry out this barbaric ritual a quick scrunch is a much kinder option
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Noooooooooo don't call the RSPCA.... call child line...

...It's ME that really gets squished at lunchtime by my 8+ stone puppy!!!!
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Agreed........1 little mistake....Im sure she forgot all about it by now.......probabley thought nothing of it in the first place
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.......enjoy ya weekend out with her BB...Im sure she will love it
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Thanks guys! Thats made me feel much better.
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I don't think she will hold a grudge.
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Hopefully will have lots of pics next week of Star's summer holiday!
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