As per title, would you expect a decent discount for a young unproven horse that has been seen to windsuck? Would it affect a vetting & insurance as it's been highlighted by seller? I'm asking as a buyer not a seller.
How much does a windsucker devalue a young horse?
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It has a massive impact on price and sell-ability, in my experience. Horse market currently a buyers market so easy to find something without a vice. Hard to sell on. Not a desirable trait at all.
And I have a serial cribber so know the troubles! If you think there's the slightest possibility you will want to sell in the future, steer clear.
Saying that, you can get yourself something very nice at a cheaper price if you're willing to put up with it. There are some downsides - if a cribber usually a bit stiffer through the neck, might have ulcers, some harder to keep weight on, it can also be annoying/stressful to watch.
And I have a serial cribber so know the troubles! If you think there's the slightest possibility you will want to sell in the future, steer clear.
Saying that, you can get yourself something very nice at a cheaper price if you're willing to put up with it. There are some downsides - if a cribber usually a bit stiffer through the neck, might have ulcers, some harder to keep weight on, it can also be annoying/stressful to watch.
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I would expect a serious reduction in price, less if it was an older proven horse but in a young one that has yet to prove itself in competition then the price must reflect a vice, insurance may not cover for any gut related issues so no colic cover, usually important as it is potentially a killer, also no cover for ulcers which may be the reason for windsucking and cribbing treatment is expensive and may be long term if the horse has them.
That said it could be a super young horse, one of mine cribbed with no health issues his whole life, well none involving colic or keeping weight on, sometimes a change of yard, some proper work and good turnout means they stop doing it.
That said it could be a super young horse, one of mine cribbed with no health issues his whole life, well none involving colic or keeping weight on, sometimes a change of yard, some proper work and good turnout means they stop doing it.
It would be a deal breaker for me, unless it was a superstar proven horse, I wouldn't be interested whatever the price and even then I would be very wary about the underlying reasons for it doing it.
Most vices are simply stereotypies caused by being bored, confined and stressed out. So I wouldn't really worry about an "underlying cause" - it's being in a box. However, once the behaviour's become a habit, it can be a really tough one to break and even 24/7 turnout won't always fix it (though often it does). So while I wouldn't be concerned about the behaviour at face value, I'd want to assess how likely it is I could stop it before going ahead with the purchase... I.e. can I keep the horse out 24/7. Can I make sure it has a fat and fibre diet... Can I ensure it has plenty of company to encourage social interactions. Will it be in fairly regular work to keep its mind occupied... Etc etc. And does the horse appear to exhibit the behaviour CURRENTLY when turned out. If not, there's a very good chance it'll stop entirely with proper management.
If I wasn't able to provide conditions that would facilitate breaking of the habit, I would not buy. The increased risk of colic and ulcers would be enough of a concern if it were allowed to persist... And then there's the difficulty of ever reselling.
I'd still expect the price to be considerably lower than a comparably vice-free horse regardless simply to reflect the current market.
If I wasn't able to provide conditions that would facilitate breaking of the habit, I would not buy. The increased risk of colic and ulcers would be enough of a concern if it were allowed to persist... And then there's the difficulty of ever reselling.
I'd still expect the price to be considerably lower than a comparably vice-free horse regardless simply to reflect the current market.
How on earth can you generalise about it most likely being a stereotypy.
I think that's a very very dangerous assumption.
I think that's a very very dangerous assumption.
It used to be thought that windsucking and cribbing were stereotypies; however it has been proven that windsucking produces a dopamine response which relaxes the stomach relieving pain from e.g. ulcers. Of course the dopamine response is also addictive, and the windsucking/cribbing continue once the underlying physical issues have resolved.
I would be highly concerned about a young horse with such an issue.
I would be highly concerned about a young horse with such an issue.
I also believe that the old thinking that it was a stereotypie had been disproven and also that it wasn't 'catching' (the belief that other horses would copy the habit was what caused a lot of livery yards to refuse to have cribbers and windsuckers).
I read a report recently linking windsucking with a very high incidence of colic so it would concern me.
I read a report recently linking windsucking with a very high incidence of colic so it would concern me.
I'll be watching this thread with interest. A few months back, I bought back a homebred horse after his future appeared to be less than certain. He had been very successful as a 4 yr old, (I sold him as a foal) then was sold to an experienced yard to go eventing. Because he was naturally a "fatty" he was kept in a stable, with no feed to slim him down. When I finally got roped in, he was a weaver,, cribbed and windsucked, none of which he had done before. The damage is done, he has those habits for life now, although he is hugely improved when stabled, and doesn't do any of these things out at grass. When I do decide to sell him, of course his full history will be given, and a home chosen very carefully. It took five weeks for this horse's guts to start working properly, and he is now starting to look like he used to. Obviously he is worth a great deal less than he was a year ago, so I shall probably get a competition record on him to help sell him. He has never shown any signs of colic, although, we were pretty sure that he had hind gut ulcers when he came, as he was desperately uncomfortable in his lumbar region, and that, apparently, is the sign for hind gut ulcers.
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I'm pretty sure that scientific research shows that it is most often the case though.
It's interesting that the pros I've spoken to on this seem to have a bit of a different attitude...one 4* rider said "I don't care what they do in their spare time, as long as they don't do it when I'm on their backs".
I've got a windsucker, bought him with full knowledge...apparently started doing it at 4 when stabled 24/7 on a dressage yard. Now 9, lives out 24/7 and still has to windsuck after feed. It increases if he's in pain/uncomfortable, so definitely a dopamine release for him. Scoped fully clear of ulcers, never had even a hint of colic despite horrendous amounts of veterinary treatment and issues with eating etc.
I would probably buy another if it was the perfect horse, although would want veterinary history with it.
I've got a windsucker, bought him with full knowledge...apparently started doing it at 4 when stabled 24/7 on a dressage yard. Now 9, lives out 24/7 and still has to windsuck after feed. It increases if he's in pain/uncomfortable, so definitely a dopamine release for him. Scoped fully clear of ulcers, never had even a hint of colic despite horrendous amounts of veterinary treatment and issues with eating etc.
I would probably buy another if it was the perfect horse, although would want veterinary history with it.
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Interesting, so would a horse which has ulcers then start to windsuck to relieve them, or is there sometimes no link..........?
Personally I don't think it should have a massive effect on the price, either people will accept a windsucker or they won't IMO. I had one years ago, took me a year to sell her purely because so many people were put off before they'd even come to see her (funnily enough, the first person to view her bought her). I must say that now I've had one I don't know if I'd have another, just because she used to destroy the top of our fence posts cribbing on them (she would do it on fencing and even on the downward motion of pulling hay from her haynet) and because she was so hard to sell. However, I would want to see if there was a reason for it like if the horse was kept stabled 24/7 then just chucking it out in the field might help hugely.
Research shows most cases of windsucking are stereotypies - as someone already pointed out. edit: have some papers, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2746/042516402776180241/abstract and http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2746/042516403776114216/abstract And here is why I mentioned diet: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749073909000042 Colic and ulcers appear to be the result of windsucking, not the other way around. edit: here's a paper: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=D93A3DC23AB5A70C4B4A1324ADDC91D2.f04t02 And, yes, there is evidence there is an associated dopamine release and it is therefore effectively addictive, which is why it's very hard to stop it once it has begun. But dopamine release is not about pain relief... Dopamine is released during all sorts of activities.
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He is not 16.3, sane and otherwise sound is he?? (sorry, sick of looking for a sound and sane horse!).
No, sorry, only 16 hands. I have a super 17 hander though but unbroken, so no use to you, I'm sure.
In my experience it hugely affects their value and only once for that reason did I buy one. That was a proven JA pony for my son and so the category of experienced competitor referred to by most others on this thread. I had no trouble selling her either. For amateur's horses or any you might plan to sell again or need to quickly I would avoid.
Some horses will be more prone to developing stereotypies than others. Same as some dogs are.
Therefore, there's an underlying cause however you dress it up.
If you don't care and you can guarantee the horse will live with you forever it doesn't matter if you buy one. But since the OP was speaking about it specifically devaluing a young horse, she presumably does care.
Therefore, there's an underlying cause however you dress it up.
If you don't care and you can guarantee the horse will live with you forever it doesn't matter if you buy one. But since the OP was speaking about it specifically devaluing a young horse, she presumably does care.
We had one! He was wonderful. He was a little quirky, had to stick to his routine or he stressed, but he was on all the pony club teams, bought home countless frillies and lived til a ripe old age. We did actually scope for ulcers and it was clear. He never had colic, even once. He was a windsucker rather than a cribber, and only really did it when stressed. Would I buy one now? Not sure, but then our budget is bigger! Wouldn't have changed a thing about him!
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hi why do you have to sell him again-the poor thing knows he is getting past about and very sad....
Interesting to see most think the same as me, that it greatly devalues a young unproven horse, but wouldn't worry you with a proven record. I have access to good grazing, 24/7 in spring, summer & autumn but prefer them in overnight in winter with tons of hay, and fibre only feeds.
Or do I just buy a baby? Food for though, thank you.
Or do I just buy a baby? Food for though, thank you.
For me, having had one, the issue is that it can be nigh on impossible to really get to the bottom of what is causing it and there are huge variances on how severe it is. I think (from personal experience) it can be genetic as well as my horse and 4 siblings out of the same sire, all cribbed. All kept on different yards, well cared for. 3 out of the 5 colic'd as s resign of the cribbing.