How much hay for winter forage for my cob

[MazzMara]

Hi there.. I'm a first time (elder.!) horse owner of a lovely Trad Irish Cob, 15.1or so, here in Ireland. Had him since last April.
He's on a busy livery yard of 20 or so horses, good summer turnout, winter pads. All livery users are friendly and I know 3 of them.
Thing is, with my lack of knowledge, I'm not sure if my boy is getting enough hay.. He shares a pad w another cob, the hay box is always empty by mid morning or so, and doesn't get hay again til 5pm when they're all brought in. There's new high hay racks now in stables, and seems to be less hay given now for night feed.
The YO is OK but not very approachable, I don't enjoy her lessons (she doesn't allow other teachers on to yard.. Miss my teacher.. ?) and am a bit wary of her as she is sharp w me re questions, so I've stopped asking her anything and relying on friends.
Should I be concerned re 6hrs of no forage.? In a small pad w other horse..
Thank you.. ?

 

[Widgeon]

When you say "pad" do you mean like a dry all weather turnout pen, i.e. no grass? And does he have straw bed to nibble on? When he's turned out is there a bit of grass left? I think all those things would influence whether or not I was worried about this, if it was my horse. If he has access to some sort of forage (straw, grass, hay) for the other 18 hours of the day I probably wouldn't be panicking about it - but others may well disagree, my view is probably coloured by the fact that I also have a 15.1 cob and he will eat everything he's given immediately - if I topped it up he'd just keep going and become enormously fat. I wonder if yours is also taking this approach.

Your YO doesn't sound very nice to be honest - could you and a friend hire a trailer and go elsewhere for lessons? It can't be much fun if your YO / instructor is not supportive.

 

[MazzMara]

When you say "pad" do you mean like a dry all weather turnout pen, i.e. no grass? And does he have straw bed to nibble on? When he's turned out is there a bit of grass left? I think all those things would influence whether or not I was worried about this, if it was my horse. If he has access to some sort of forage (straw, grass, hay) for the other 18 hours of the day I probably wouldn't be panicking about it - but others may well disagree, my view is probably coloured by the fact that I also have a 15.1 cob and he will eat everything he's given immediately - if I topped it up he'd just keep going and become enormously fat. I wonder if yours is also taking this approach.

Your YO doesn't sound very nice to be honest - could you and a friend hire a trailer and go elsewhere for lessons? It can't be much fun if your YO / instructor is not supportive.

Thanks Widgeon..
The pads are asphalt and our one is quite wet. Nothing else. Other horse owner and I share the poo picking daily.
Yes I guess my fella would just keep on eating, he being a cob and all.! But it all seems a bit sparse, I'm sure he's clearing his nightly hay each within a couple of hours..
The poor fella has had 8 weeks rehab in that pad after rig surgery, no grass other than my hand grazing. He's not mad fat just 'cobby' looking, but I'm just starting work w him now, will be short hacking out in a week or so, light arena work now.
Feel sorry for him..

 

[MazzMara]

Thanks Widgeon..
The pads are asphalt and our one is quite wet. Nothing else. Other horse owner and I share the poo picking daily.
Yes I guess my fella would just keep on eating, he being a cob and all.! But it all seems a bit sparse, I'm sure he's clearing his nightly hay each within a couple of hours..
The poor fella has had 8 weeks rehab in that pad after rig surgery, no grass other than my hand grazing. He's not mad fat just 'cobby' looking, but I'm just starting work w him now, will be short hacking out in a week or so, light arena work now.
Feel sorry for him..

BTW.. Probably not a goer re lessons, most are more experienced riders and wouldn't need to move for lessons, YO more interested in show jumpers.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

Are you sure this is the yard for you?

Yes you should be concerned if your horse is going with no forage for 6 hours plus maybe standing with no hay during the night also. My mare is similar to yours in that she will hoover through whatever I put down, can you hang small holed haynets around the pen to try and make the hay last longer?

What is your livery agreement re hay? Is it adlib? Because if it is then your horse shouldn't be without hay (unless restricted for medical/weight purposes)! And if it's not you should have the option to buy more hay from the YO or have space to buy your own and store. I was on a full livery yard and I went down once around 8pm and my mare had no hay left, she was going to be in until 6am! I refilled her hay net and sent a message to the YO to let her know i had done it, I got the impression she wasn't best pleased but I paid for ad lib hay so I was going to have ad lib hay!

 

[holeymoley]

Can you dot lots of small holed haynets instead of using a hay box?

 

[Widgeon]

The poor fella has had 8 weeks rehab in that pad after rig surgery, no grass other than my hand grazing. He's not mad fat just 'cobby' looking, but I'm just starting work w him now, will be short hacking out in a week or so, light arena work now.

That doesn't sound great really - I think I'd agree with holeymoley, you probably need to find a way to slow down his eating rather than having him left for ages without anything to eat. Small holed haynets and upping the hay rations (as he isn't fat) both sound good, the only other thing I can think of is that you said he shares his area with another horse - are you happy that the two of them are eating equal amounts of the hay? Or could the other horse be eating more? I know there may not be much you can do about that but it would be useful to know if h's being done out his share.

I think my bigger concerns would be a) your YO isn't being very supportive or helpful, and b) YO seems to be happy to leave two horses to stand all day without anything to eat, without doing anything about it. Neither of those things say much about her level of care for her liveries, human and horse. Also, it sounds like she's being patronizing and rather rude re. your lessons - you may not be a showjumper but you are just as deserving as anyone else of quality teaching tailored to your level of riding! Particularly if she won't allow you to bring your own instructor on site. Honestly I would be looking to move. A good YO will support and encourage you, not sulk about having to teach a novice and get cross when you ask questions - you deserve (and are paying for) better than that. I wouldn't last five minutes on your yard...I'm a novice who asks questions ALL the time! Good luck getting the forage situation sorted, and I hope that ultimately you can find a yard that's more friendly and supportive.

 

[P.forpony]

Personally I wouldn’t be happy at all to have my horse standing empty for so long.
And no outside instructors always sets alarm bells for me, why not? What are they worried about?

Livery is a funny thing, there’s a tendency to feel trapped and helpless like a bad relationship when it’s not going quite right.

We need to remember sometimes that it’s not a relationship it’s a transaction.

You are paying for a service!

Whatever the terms of your livery are, what you or your horse receive should not be at the whim of the YO, or if they like you or not, or just don’t feel like it that day.

You get what you pay for.
If you don’t like it or it turns out you’re not getting what you pay for, don’t hang around, life’s too short.

It may be that a quick chat is all it takes to sort things out with your YO.

But if not there are plenty of yards out there to suit all owners, finding the right one can be a bit of a faf but absolutely worth it in the long run.

 

[Bob notacob]

Seriously ,hay is not that expensive ,you spend more on bedding!. Should be ad lib .

 

[PurBee]

If youre not there feeding hay and he’s sharing with another on a dry pad, and little hay is being given out - they’ll be competing for hay and inhaling it quickly. Not a good situation.

15h 500 kg cob would roughly need between 7.5-10kg of hay per 24hrs - thats between 1.5-2% bodyweight, if given no other forage, as yours isnt. With there being 2 cobs thats 15-20kg per day minimum, maintenance. If your hacking/schooling more will be needed.

7.5kg is around 5 flakes of irish small hay bales, each flake weighing 1.5kg average. (I weigh everything! ?)

I’d buy a pocket size digital suitcase weighing scales and turn up as theyre being fed nightime hay - launch it into a haynet and weigh it. If its not at least 4kg - i’d be moving the horse to another yard - unless you have the option to be there to feed hay yourself to make sure he’s getting what he needs?

Feeling frost from the YO doesn’t sound like a sustainable arrangement. You need support and encouragement as said by others....YO should be happy to be that as you’re paying and its their **** job!

Sorry youre having these issues as a new owner at a less than joyful yard...its not a great start for you as i hear on here others talk often of the support from yards they get....aswell as hassles sure...but mostly human interractional bitchy hassles, not at the level of hay is being scrimped on....that’s dire.
Keep an eye out for other yards, put the feelers out....dont settle for frosty YO and hay scrimping.

 

[MazzMara]

Dear everyone.. Thank you so much for your friendly, insightful and knowledgeable support.. ?
Sorry for delay getting back to you all, busy day or two and time for thought as well..
Re hay.. Forgot to mention, the YO put up a notice on our WhatsApp group recently that all hay has to be given by her and partner ONLY, that people are 'helping themselves' and they can't run a business like that.. There was no response from anyone, interestingly..
Chatted w a very nice livery lady re same, she has known YO for years, but I diplomatically mentioned my hay dilemma with her and she kindly gave me her hay and refilled her haynet quietly.
Since then, there's has been more hay in the box for the 2 cobs.. ? She may have had a word with YO, don't know.. I'm hoping this will continue.. I like the idea of several haynets for them.. ? But means a discussion with u no hoo..
PurBee, if I mentioned to YO the figures you mentioned, I'd likely get an ear full.. But thank you.. ?
(BTW.. The other cob has only been on the yard for a week) my cob not fat, can just see ribs and saddle still fits after 8 wks of no work. He looks a bit forlorn, but hoping work will perk him up.. (any supplement needed.??)
Re YO /support etc.. I have 3 patient, willing, generous, encouraging and lovely horsey friends on the yard without whom I would have sold my horse and be long gone by now.. I have had some help from YOs, but only when I've been overwhelmed and me and my horse really needed it.. But they're of the 'show him who's boss' school and 'just figure it out' as a solution.. I have never once had an expression of interest or Well Done/how are you doing etc.. She gets very defensive and I have to be careful of how I go/engage w her.
Re Another yard.. There are yards, but further away for me and I won't know anyone, at least now I have great friends and hacks etc..
I was 'allowed' to have a teacher in last week to get me going w my cob after rehab, 2 sessions and even she was reluctant to come back.. Shame cos I know her well and she'd be so helpful.. ?
Anyway folks...sorry for long post, I really appreciate your help and I feel better for it.. Thank you all.. ?

 

[MazzMara]

Dear everyone.. Thank you so much for your friendly, insightful and knowledgeable support.. ?
Sorry for delay getting back to you all, busy day or two and time for thought as well..
Re hay.. Forgot to mention, the YO put up a notice on our WhatsApp group recently that all hay has to be given by her and partner ONLY, that people are 'helping themselves' and they can't run a business like that.. There was no response from anyone, interestingly..
Chatted w a very nice livery lady re same, she has known YO for years, but I diplomatically mentioned my hay dilemma with her and she kindly gave me her hay and refilled her haynet quietly.
Since then, there's has been more hay in the box for the 2 cobs.. ? She may have had a word with YO, don't know.. I'm hoping this will continue.. I like the idea of several haynets for them.. ? But means a discussion with u no hoo..
PurBee, if I mentioned to YO the figures you mentioned, I'd likely get an ear full.. But thank you.. ?
(BTW.. The other cob has only been on the yard for a week) my cob not fat, can just see ribs and saddle still fits after 8 wks of no work. He looks a bit forlorn, but hoping work will perk him up.. (any supplement needed.??)
Re YO /support etc.. I have 3 patient, willing, generous, encouraging and lovely horsey friends on the yard without whom I would have sold my horse and be long gone by now.. I have had some help from YOs, but only when I've been overwhelmed and me and my horse really needed it.. But they're of the 'show him who's boss' school and 'just figure it out' as a solution.. I have never once had an expression of interest or Well Done/how are you doing etc.. She gets very defensive and I have to be careful of how I go/engage w her.
Re Another yard.. There are yards, but further away for me and I won't know anyone, at least now I have great friends and hacks etc..
I was 'allowed' to have a teacher in last week to get me going w my cob after rehab, 2 sessions and even she was reluctant to come back.. Shame cos I know her well and she'd be so helpful.. ?
Anyway folks...sorry for long post, I really appreciate your help and I feel better for it.. Thank you all.. ?

PS.. I'm the least experienced rider/owner on the yard. I get the impression the YO just wants people who come and go, sort their horses themselves with no questions or problems for her.. She does seem to have a much friendlier relationship w them and they do 'keep in' w her..?

 

[PurBee]

I’d still be moving mazzmara, especially after thats whatsapp message. You cant give your own horse hay?! Wow....i think that is rare for a YO to enforce such a strict policy on hay....others on here at yards hopefully will chime in with their experience, but most places have an ‘ad lib hay’ included in the price.

Is it full livery you’re on or part...? Whats the deal?

Its still worth weighing what your horse is getting...so you know, based on the rough figures i mentioned how much below the minimum amount he should be getting.
If you can see ribs on a cob with a winter coat on, he’s underweight...(or parasite burden,illness but its likely under-feeding in this case, as youre trying to assess) Youve said he’s not been in hard work so he’s not athletic ribby, like sports horses.

I realise you have support from some liveries on the yard and youre new to horse ownership, but your horses needs are as important as your social needs. You dont feel you can talk to YO to even address the issue....it’s a check-mate situation. YO doesnt want problems (who does?!) but they are supplying you a service and if you have issues with that service you have the right to address it.
So its a case of approaching the YO confidently and firmly, as you are concerned with your horses welfare....basic welfare of receiving enough forage.

As he’s on just hay and no turnout onto grass or any other feed but the hay - you’d want to supplement his feed with nutrients/minerals commonly missing in hay. Its called a ‘balancer’ generally. There’s different ones available. (Do a search for balancers on this forum, a large thread recently was discussing this)
The most widely available basic economic one in Ireland is from Gain feeds, called Opti-Care, 25kg bag. You’d give a cob of 500kg about 1kg of that per day. You could also soak 1kg of speedibeet and mix with the opti-care - to give your boy an extra kilo of fibre. Its great as a night feed if youre visiting him at night.
I presume you’re allowed to feed hard feeds to your horse or does YO want to control that too?

Gain also do ‘Easy Go Cubes’ - a high fibre, low starch pellet feed. It also contains some nutrients. I’d use that in the winter to keep weight on mine - its alfalfa based, 17.5% fibre, 10% protein, is not loaded with ‘sugar fuel’ or molasses like many bagged feeds.
1 kilo of that per day (morning feed) ontop of hay and balancer/beet (evening) kept my gelding looking great, who’s prone to losing weight on just hay in winter.

I’m sorry youre having issues with a YO who doesnt want to be approached by liveries issues, but thats their job....to provide a service for horse owners horses to be cared for by them. There are some dire yards and great yards...many on here change yeards if issues of welfare arise that YO isnt interested in sorting out.

Dont let YO intimidate you...put on the big girl pants and confidently approach! That why i said to weigh the hay he’s getting...then you have facts, to bring to the conversation.

A large pile of shaken out hay can easily weight just 1.5kg, while 3 slim flakes looking not much as its compressed can weigh 4kg.

Fingers crossed for you both you get sorted ?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

It is a fallacy that all cobs need to have their intake restricted. Very often, when they get used to ad-lib access to forage (hay/haylage) they will calm down and stop inhaling it as soon as they see it. In order to get to that stage they need ad-lib access but some of their forage should be straw. I strongly dislike haynets and refuse to use them but there are other hayfeeders that slow feeding down, if you want to go down that route.

I wouldn't want to stay on your yard tbh, the inability to bring another RI would ring alarm bells for me - is there something to hide? Well yes, there is, the fact that horses are standing around with nothing at all to eat for 6 hours. I would start looking round for a more suitable yard, if I were you.