How should a judge handle this?

scats

scats

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Accompanied a friend to a very local fun show this weekend. She decided to have a crack at her first ridden class and a couple of inhands. Her horse is a cob, hogged and clipped out. He is overweight and she is working hard with vets to get it under control- restricted turnout, soaked hay etc.
Anyway, she was pulled in 3rd out of 4 but when the rosettes were being given out, the judge absolutely berated her infront of the other competitors for how overweight he is and she came out of the ring in tears. My friend is quite timid and rather than tell the judge that the horse is being closely monitored by vets and she is doing everything she can, she just sort of shrunk away and didn't say anything.

My friend then withdrew from the in-hand classes as they were under the same judge and she was too upset and embarrassed to present him again.
Unfortunately his ridiculous skinny legs don't help matters as, when I looked at him next to some of the others in the video I took, he is probably similar weight wise, but his little stick legs that are clipped then make his body look totally out of proportion. Last year she tried him as a traditional but the judge she was under suggested he would do better as a cob, hence why she hogged him.

I totally agree with judges telling people when their horses are overweight, so I am not disputing this at all, I just wonder if it could have been done in a slightly better way, perhaps mentioned to my friend while rosettes where awarded, but perhaps the telling off could have happened outside the ring if the judge was hugely concerned? The judge was speaking to her for 5 minutes and my friend said it was just a 5 minute tirade of how she was abusing her horse, so much so that the other competitors were starting to look embarrassed.

Just wondered what others think really. I suppose judges are in a difficult position, but I wonder if there is a more tactful way of dealing with this. How would those of you who judge deal with it?
 
Crikey that judue got on her high horse! There is absolutely no need for that behaviour! I would be emailing a complaint to the show secretary and they hopefully won't ask her to judge again!

Most judges would simply say - your horse is too chubby for my liking - as they hand out the rosettes to the exhibitor themself not out loud in front of the whole class. And most would either start or finish with lovely pony! Regardless of what they actually thought!
 
I think there will be a few complaints. The previous class had just one rider in it and the judge gave her a lesson in the ring. It was very strange. I was talking to the girls mother and she seemed a bit embarrassed about it. She also said her friend had gone off to complain about the previous class because the judge had told her daughter off for having a badly behaved pony and then proceeded to give her a short lesson, to the embarrassment of the girl, who I think just wanted the ground to swallow her up! Interestingly, this same girl was 4th in my friends class and my friend said that once the judge had finished berating her about her cobs weight, she moved to the young girl and started telling her off again about her horses behaviour. Bizarre!
 
It is not fair for the judge at such a low level show to make such a exhibition of a competitor however fat they think the horse is it could have been done more tactfully and quietly, that said there are still far too many overweight horses, not just in the show ring, and if the judges do not tell people clearly and just hand out the rosettes they go away thinking they have done well and there is no need to change, not that this is the case with your friend and it should have been done differently.

If the cob in question has "little stick legs" I am not sure he is a true cob as they should still have plenty of bone under the hair and if he is really overweight without the bone to carry him then he is fatter than the others who probably didn't have stick thin legs although without seeing him it is hard to tell, it is tough for your friend but if he is really heavy he probably should stay at home until he reaches nearer his target weight, give her a boost by helping her gain her confidence, get her to aim for something when he looks perfect, where he will do well and she can put today behind her, maybe a lesson with someone who shows would be a good idea so she has more idea of what he will be suited to, the judge that said he is a show cob not a trad may have been wrong or trying to be polite on the day by suggesting it.
 
scats said:
I think there will be a few complaints. The previous class had just one rider in it and the judge gave her a lesson in the ring. It was very strange. I was talking to the girls mother and she seemed a bit embarrassed about it. She also said her friend had gone off to complain about the previous class because the judge had told her daughter off for having a badly behaved pony and then proceeded to give her a short lesson, to the embarrassment of the girl, who I think just wanted the ground to swallow her up! Interestingly, this same girl was 4th in my friends class and my friend said that once the judge had finished berating her about her cobs weight, she moved to the young girl and started telling her off again about her horses behaviour. Bizarre!
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The judge obviously took her "position" rather too seriously, giving a "lesson" in the ring is unusual but if she was the only one in the class and was having issues then I would probably have done the same, in a nice helpful way, as everyone needs to learn how to ride in the ring and it is something that will not often be covered by instructors judging from what is seen at many local shows, again it can be done tactfully and a judge who is too outspoken will not be invited back another year.
 
Sounds awful and not helpful to those who wish to compete at local shows, although I'm guessing she thought she was educating them. A simple "He's lovely, I might have placed him higher if he was a little less overweight" while giving out the rosette would have sufficed.

I've actually had similar said to me, that my pony would benefit from losing weight. It wasn't said horribly and if I was a novice and wanting to do well, it was good advice. As it was I just wanted an enjoyable day out so it was fine.
 
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I am surprised that the judge had time to spend 5 minutes on feedback for one competitor. All your friend needed to do was say "Yes, I know, I am working with my vet to get his weight down". No matter how timid she is, surely she can hold a 1-to-1 conversation with someone who is also interested in horses?

As for giving a lesson in the ring, what did the competitor expect the judge to do? Just let her pony misbehave for 30 mins or so until it was time for the next class?

Admittedly, there are ways to say things to people and berating them isn't a good one but if judges don't give feedback, competitors complain and if they don't like the feedback, they complain.
 
Agree the judge got completely above her station if in fact it was such a local fun show however as a judge I would expect them to give a little feedback and say the horse is a bit chubby to be placed higher.
TBH I'm the type of person that if the horse is that fat I'd be too embarrassed to take out in public until it had lost a bit weight.
The good thing is your friend is already managing the weight loss with their vet and and sure will have plenty of opportunities in the future to put this unpleasant day behind them.
 
Sounds like an old bat, who has her opinions and wants the world to know. She probably has the best interests of the horse in mind, but prefers horses to humans and it is her mission to improve the world. This sort of person is not the usual judge.

All your friend can do is put it behind her and better luck with the judge next time! Incidentally I think going to a show is a good way to slim down a horse. All the preparation, no eating, the time at the show, no eating and using up energy.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I am surprised that the judge had time to spend 5 minutes on feedback for one competitor. All your friend needed to do was say "Yes, I know, I am working with my vet to get his weight down". No matter how timid she is, surely she can hold a 1-to-1 conversation with someone who is also interested in horses?

As for giving a lesson in the ring, what did the competitor expect the judge to do? Just let her pony misbehave for 30 mins or so until it was time for the next class?

Admittedly, there are ways to say things to people and berating them isn't a good one but if judges don't give feedback, competitors complain and if they don't like the feedback, they complain.
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The judge spent ten minutes chatting to one competitor, during their pull-in to do their individual, about breeding! The next class was over an hour late, despite there being only 4 in this class.

I have no problem with judges giving feedback, albeit I do think they should remain curteous. But my friend withdrew from her next two classes and the show kindly gave her a refund, so that judge basically lost them money. Was genuinely curious as to how othe people feel issues like weight should be addressed.
Friend is very aware that horse is overweight, and beats herself up about it daily, so I think it just really touched a nerve, hence why she got herself so upset. She says the judge was very right, but she felt it should have been discussed outside the ring instead of in front of the other competitors.

Thanks for your replies, interesting to hear different views about it.
 
Unfortunately for your friend, the place for feedback is in the ring. It would be very unseemly for the judge to follow a competitor out of the ring, to discuss the horse. However feedback should be short and to the point.

I did once steward for a BSPS judge who had several child competitors in tears and yet I have stewarded for her since and she has been very nice to everyone. I can only think that she was having a bad day, the first time I met her.
 
Judges don't often speak to people outside of the ring as angry competitors hold nothing back outside of the ring! They tend to be a wee bit more restrained in it! A wee quiet - lovely pony but carrying a bit too much weight - with a smile whilst handing out the rosette if the most appropriate way of dealing with it.

This judge clearly didn't have half a scooby about what she was doing and wont be asked back if the show lost money and had many complaints, her name will also be circulated and she will find judging appointments very hard to come by in the future.
 
Although the judge had a point, you are right there better ways of dealing with it.
I think you need to learn to speak up. I once rode a horse at show that was a blob and the judge when handing out rosettes commented on her weight saying she was far too fat, I said I compeletly agree but I am not its owner, literally just riding it and dont maange ot all but will tell its owner that if it was slimmer it would do better and the judge was very nice to me once she relised the situation.

If I was ypur friend I wouldnt show until he was a bit slimmer.
 
The judge was correct in marking down the overweight horse. Showing societies are starting to crack down on this and asking judges to take weight into consideration when making decisions for the welfare of the horses.

The judge should have politely said "well done but I have had to mark your horse down for being overweight". Your friend should then have said "Thank you for your feedback, I know he is overweight and it is a welfare issue and I am working with my vet to remedy this"

The difficulty is that competitors often say they want feedback on how to improve their performance from the judge but when they get it, it is not always welcome. If the judge is judging several classes they have not got time to leave the ring, find the person and then give them feedback, so it should be done in the ring.
 
I think the judge was very high handed and could have made her thoughts known in a much nicer way. How awful for your friend ending in tears. If it's any consolation, I know someone who was the only one in a showing class and the judge awarded her second place!!
 
claracanter said:
I think the judge was very high handed and could have made her thoughts known in a much nicer way. How awful for your friend ending in tears. If it's any consolation, I know someone who was the only one in a showing class and the judge awarded her second place!!
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Bad day for the judge perhaps, but uncalled for nevertheless. However, I love the idea of presenting 2nd place to someone who was the only one in the class. Several times I have been the only M&M and been given a 1st when I truly didn't deserve it with pony's behaviour, it usually leaves me feeling very embarrassed & somewhat disappointed. I was delighted to be 'out' of the rosettes at one show last year because it meant I was not the only one in the class!!
 
claracanter said:
I think the judge was very high handed and could have made her thoughts known in a much nicer way. How awful for your friend ending in tears. If it's any consolation, I know someone who was the only one in a showing class and the judge awarded her second place!!
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If the judge doesn't feel the pony deserves to win they don't have to hand out the rosettes. At one show a judge started her placings at 4th because in her opinion the 3 mini shetlands in front of her were not of good enough quality to qualify for the championships taht standing 1-3 would have got you. The owner owned all 3 and kicked up a hell of a fuss but the judge was perfectly within her rights to with hold rosettes and qualifiers.
 
TBH I wish more judges would just send fat horse straight out of the ring the size of some show horses is disgusting .
No one would berate a judge for dealing with very skinny horses and most skinny horses can get back to full health with no long term ill effects whereas being much to fat will always affect a horse long term .
Much too fat is as bad as much too thin why should anyone pretend otherwise .
 
If the horse was as underweight, as it was overweight, would it be acceptable.

By presenting a fat (or thin) horse at a show, the owner is telling the judge they think it's acceptable. Personally I think you have to take what you get in that situation having chosen to put yourself in it.
 
Goldenstar said:
TBH I wish more judges would just send fat horse straight out of the ring the size of some show horses is disgusting .
No one would berate a judge for dealing with very skinny horses and most skinny horses can get back to full health with no long term ill effects whereas being much to fat will always affect a horse long term .
Much too fat is as bad as much too thin why should anyone pretend otherwise .
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Have got to agree with this. If you just rescued a horse that was skinny or if you had a horse that was thin after an illness you wouldn't think it appropriate to take it out showing, and if you did most people would realise that you are bound to get comments from the judge. So why do people think it is OK to take out a horse that is overweight (to the extent that the owner is working with vets to reduce weight) without censure? Also, just playing devil's advocate, are you sure the judge really 'berated' the owner? You say yourself that she is timid, so she may have taken upset over what may have been fair and sensible feedback. So many times I've heard people emotionally exaggerate what is actually good and fair advice as being 'told off' or 'berated', which is actually due to their own insecurities rather than being based on what the judge actually said. Plus if this 'cob' has really skinny legs, whilst still having the same size body as the other cobs in the ring, it does really sound like it is quite substantially overweight for its type.
 
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Thanks for all your replies. As I said, I couldn't hear what the judge said to my friend so could only go by what my friend told me through her tears.

Vets have said he is overweight by 60kg, she is working hard to bring it down. Interestingly, he was by no means the fattest on the show ground. Not that this makes it ok, obviously, but definitely seems to be a lot of people showing overweight animals.
 
I steward a lot and have done big and small shows, if the judge is rude to the competitors I always tell the show sec. Especially at small shows you rely on local people to attend, apart from being inappropriate a rude judge just drives away your customers.
Even at a county show a judge was so rude the chief steward went to the office to mark their card so they would not be asked back.

Showing is very subjective, in affiliated classes usually there is a known standard the judge is judging to, which should in theory make it easier to know what they are looking for. There are so many types of cobs, a show cob is nothing like a gypsy cob or a welsh cob.
I do not know what colour your friends horse is but this web site explains the types really well, ignore the colour.
http://www.bspaonline.com/types-breeds.html
Its coming up to winter, get her to hold off with the rugs and it will lose weight.
 
Judges can be very random. I competed a smart belgian warm blood in a working hunter class - only local level. He jumped the only clear out of 10 horses, apart from a Highland pony.We were placed 10th

The reason - because he was branded! Not sure how this made him less suitable as a working hunter than the Highland pony, who won.

He also competed (and was placed! ) at much higher levels so just chalk it up to experience and move on.
 
scats said:
I have no problem with judges giving feedback, albeit I do think they should remain curteous. But my friend withdrew from her next two classes and the show kindly gave her a refund, so that judge basically lost them money. Was genuinely curious as to how othe people feel issues like weight should be addressed.
Friend is very aware that horse is overweight, and beats herself up about it daily, so I think it just really touched a nerve, hence why she got herself so upset. She says the judge was very right, but she felt it should have been discussed outside the ring instead of in front of the other competitors..
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It sounds like your friend is very sensitive about the issue. If she'd replied and said yes, I am aware. I'm working with vet on a weight loss plan. I suspect judge would have ended the conversation. I do think to an extent if you present a horse in the show ring, you are asking for judge feedback.

And comments you know to be true, and are working to resolve shouldn't cause any offense.
 
Orangehorse said:
Sounds like an old bat, who has her opinions and wants the world to know. She probably has the best interests of the horse in mind, but prefers horses to humans and it is her mission to improve the world. This sort of person is not the usual judge.

All your friend can do is put it behind her and better luck with the judge next time! Incidentally I think going to a show is a good way to slim down a horse. All the preparation, no eating, the time at the show, no eating and using up energy.
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This sounds like me!! As an older judge, who doesn't do a lot of it now, I find the majority of competitors at the little shows are rather lacking in horse knowledge. As far as I'm concerned, the horse's welfare is important, and if i can point out in a nice way that the rider/handler could do things better, then I will. I recently judged a welsh cob at a RC show, who was a very nice type, but overweight. I told her that she had the best conformed horse in the class, but due to his weight (and I've seen a lot worse), he was unable to move as he should. She didn't agree with me at all, but I was justified later on, when he appeared under saddle, and proceeded to wheeze and puff round the ring. The same comments were made again, but as far as the rider was concerned, i didn't know what I was talking about.
Fair enough, after all, my homebred has qualified four times for the RIHS workers this season, as well as winning at BE Open Novice, all produced by me, but what do I know???
 
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