how sore is too sore ?

maggiehorse

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A cob on the yard im at had his shoes removed two weeks ago at the farriers suggestion to allow him to grow a better hoof wall which was crumbling around the nail holes. Hes out 24/7 and comes in once a day to be fed .hes very very sore on all 4 feet .not too bad on grass but very unhappy on the track and on the concrete yard .his owner is also taking him for 10 minute walks up the road which he hobbles along.is this normal for two weeks in barefoot ?
 

Oberon

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It can happen.

But that doesn't make it acceptable.

Probably best to leave it to the owner and farrier though unless they ask for your input.
 

Marley&Me

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No it is not.

Sounds like he is feeling it due to the grass he is eating. He needs a low sugar, low carb diet and to only walk on the surfaces he is comfortable on.

If he is out 24/7 he is very unlikely to be sound unless he is muzzled/on very sparse grazing or a track system.

What hard feed is he getting? Anything with molasses in (i.e. chaff) will also make his feet very sore.

He does not need to suffer..he needs boots, restricted grazing and only a low carb balancer, and to be walked on comfy surfaces....(sand, long grass)
 

ChwaraeTeg

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I have an ex-racer and a Welsh cob both barefoot. After 2 weeks, they are not normally footsore, but they have been shoeless a few years. Have never seen the cob footsore, but the thoroughbred has been. If I think soreness will be an issue (when we go out on the road), I use old mac boots for her.
Hope all goes well and the horses feet soon harden up. Am sure they have looked into diet and suchlike.
Teg :)
 

maggiehorse

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Im only posting this because I am very interested in keeping horses as naturally as possible and had thought I might try my tb gelding barefoot but if a cob gets this uncomfortable im not sure about trying it now im only posting about the cob to see if this level of discomfort is normal for a horse to be transisioning to barefoot
 

Oberon

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Whipping the shoes off and hoping for the best is not the way I would advise.

Hooves need movement to stimulate tissue growth and therefore helpful remodelling.

A sore horse won't want to move.

A sore horse will also brace and this will cause body pain and tightness.

Body pain causes hoof problems. Hoof problems cause body pain. And so we have a circle of pathology.

You also run the risk of bruising and abscessing to a thin soled horse - which sets things back, creates pain for the horse and worry for the owner.

There are many horses who manage just fine - my own was one of them (because I didn't know any better at the time). But I prefer to have Plans A,B and C ready just in case.
 

StorminNormin

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Well fair play to the farrier to suggest shoes off - I'm sure he wouldn't have said this unless the cob's hooves were in a sorry state.

Plainly the hooves need some serious, healthy rebuilding in this case, and my own suggestion would be that he needs to get off the grass 24/7 and in during the day with plenty of ad-lib soaked hay and turned out overnight only, possibly with a muzzle if he's overweight. Going barefoot isn't just about whipping the shoes off, the whole regime and environment must change and the farrier should have advised this.

It sounds like hoofboots need to play an important part here, and consider getting a qualified UKNHCP or AANHCP barefoot trimmer in to advise on diet and management.
 

maggiehorse

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So if I decide to go ahead i.d need hoof boots at first barefoot on grass or sandschool and gradually introduce small amounts of walking on a hard surface? Also hes on a lot of good grazing his weight is perfect I wouldnt be happy restricting him but apparently grass is bad for barefoot horses ?
 

LucyPriory

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A cob on the yard im at had his shoes removed two weeks ago at the farriers suggestion to allow him to grow a better hoof wall which was crumbling around the nail holes. Hes out 24/7 and comes in once a day to be fed .hes very very sore on all 4 feet .not too bad on grass but very unhappy on the track and on the concrete yard .his owner is also taking him for 10 minute walks up the road which he hobbles along.is this normal for two weeks in barefoot ?

There is a big clue in what you have written. 'Crumbling around the nail holes' often happens when a horse has low grade laminitis.

There are many horses that you can just take the shoes off and they are fine. But there are many more that will require dietary and/or management changes - as it is often the negative effects of poor diet/management that lead an owner to barefoot in the first place - eg crumbling hooves.

And cobs at the moment in some areas are really feeling the grass.
 

Nugget La Poneh

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Grass is not bad for barefoot horses.

Over-rich grass combined with over sugared, over-rich feeds and not enough exercise is bad for any horse, but can be masked with shoes in some cases.

Some horses can transition seemingly overnight, but they will tended to have had good, even horn growth and generally decent feet. Horses that can't keep shoes on generally have other issues causing being shod a problem and these horses can struggle with being barefoot.

It won't be hard sufaces as a rule that'll be the issue unless you end up doing a lot of work on roads in the beginning. I'll be the stoney ground that'll make your horse look like the world is going to end :D
 

Oberon

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So if I decide to go ahead i.d need hoof boots at first barefoot on grass or sandschool and gradually introduce small amounts of walking on a hard surface? Also hes on a lot of good grazing his weight is perfect I wouldnt be happy restricting him but apparently grass is bad for barefoot horses ?

High levels of sugar is bad for all horses.

The issue is that barefoot horses will feel it in the early stages whereas shod horses have comfort right up until their hooves explode off their coffin bones :D

It's not necessary to restrict grass unless you have a metabolically challenged horse who cannot tolerate grass - I certainly don't with my horses.
I feed fibre based, low calorie feeds with balanced minerals and this allows optimum hoof health and metabolism.

Diet creates good tissue.

Movement and exercise creates good hooves.

You need to make the horse comfortable enough to move - so hoof protection is very helpful for weak hooves in the beginning. Hoof boots and pads are a good investment.

This is a good book for beginners
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Barefoo...9874/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340572183&sr=8-1
 

Miss L Toe

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Im only posting this because I am very interested in keeping horses as naturally as possible and had thought I might try my tb gelding barefoot but if a cob gets this uncomfortable im not sure about trying it now im only posting about the cob to see if this level of discomfort is normal for a horse to be transisioning to barefoot
Each horse and its environment [grass especially] is different. Most people look at the route to barefoot rather than just remove shoes, it is all about diet and also grazing/stable management, and lastly trimming.
Pesonally I would rather my horse stood in a stable eating soaked hay during the day, with one Danolin per day if it is sore. If it is sore, there is no point in walking it on a stony road if it is making it worse.
I would advise against "commenting" because you don't have any more "education" than the owner may have, and it is unlikely she will ask for your advise, which may not be welcome.
 
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cptrayes

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Grass is not bad for barefoot horses.

There are, however, many barefoot horses that will not cope with stony surfaces in spring/summer unless their grass intake is restricted, even if that grass is poor quality in the first place. My grass is unfertilised hill meadow and I still need to keep about one horse in three off it during daytimes in order for them not to be footie on stones. That is also in spite of mineral balancing their feed.
 

Miss L Toe

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So if I decide to go ahead i.d need hoof boots at first barefoot on grass or sandschool and gradually introduce small amounts of walking on a hard surface? Also hes on a lot of good grazing his weight is perfect I wouldnt be happy restricting him but apparently grass is bad for barefoot horses ?
You won't know if you need boots until you remove the shoes, start by reading up [Feet First], feed a suitable feed including magnesium and other minerals http://shop.forageplus.com/Forageplus-Summer-Equine-Balancer ] Other minerals are available.
You need to wait till current shoes are ready to remove, and ask farrier for a pasture trim, ie don't over - trim the sole or frog, the wall should be rasped off and the foot balanced, but no need for trimming as hard as the farrier would do in preparation for shoeing.
The worse kind of grass is the farmers mono species ryegrass, the sort that cows are fed, the best kind of grass is old meadow, with a variety of herbs and grass species. Grass grows in spurts, spring and autumn usually has lush green grass [too rich in sugars] also during the day there are more sugars than at night.
 
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Oberon

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I'd need to see the horse's feet to reliably comment as to why.

Hopefully the owner will get back to the farrier and get the best advice :).
 

maggiehorse

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I didnt make myself clear I know the owner well and she has talked to me about the cob several times this week about him shes very concerned too and is following the farriers afvise to the letter I only posted using his case in order tp learn more so I can help het and possibly transition my horse to barefoot without crippling him
 

Oberon

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Can you get some pics of the cob's hooves (side view from the ground and sole views) to post on here?
 

AmyMay

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My little cob mare had her shoes taken off when she was retired. Absolutely fantastic, no probss at all.

A tb I had didn't cope at all, and I had his shoes back on after two weeks.
 

cptrayes

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There is a big clue in what you have written. 'Crumbling around the nail holes' often happens when a horse has low grade laminitis.

There are many horses that you can just take the shoes off and they are fine. But there are many more that will require dietary and/or management changes - as it is often the negative effects of poor diet/management that lead an owner to barefoot in the first place - eg crumbling hooves.

And cobs at the moment in some areas are really feeling the grass.

The trouble is that this particular horse can barely walk on smooth tarmac its pitiful to watch





I would not expect a cob to have problems like that. I think Lucy is probably onto something with her earlier post.


How fat is he - honestly? If you are taking foot pics can we also have a pic of the whole horse?

...
 

Equilibrium Ireland

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Since this is a barefoot thread I just want to post something real quick.

I've given this lots of thought and don't know if it makes sense. For years with my younger horses they were always on a strict 6 week schedule. Blacksmith always trimmed. Because I didn't know any better I thought that normal. My current blacksmith whom I've had for 2 years since the birth of my 2 YO filly. She got a smidgeon of a rasp back in October and a smidgeon of a rasp last week. Not because I'm cheap, but because she wears her feet nicely and my blacksmith takes the time to explain what's happening. This warmblood/TB cross filly has stunning feet and soles and is a rock cruncher. She struggled slightly in the winter when the ground was so wet but I pretty much live in a quarry. Hate the land here. I keep everyone on a low startch diet and strip grazing only at night. But it is my gut feeling that my other horses were compromised early in never really developing the proper foot because everything was overdone. Too much trimming. They do not have crumbly feet but have flatter soles. I would love to go 100% barefoot, unshod behind but I need to move to better facilities and I need to transition 4 with boots. Easier to pay farrier than buying all those front boots right now. Yes I know you all will get at me.

But does any of what I wrote make any sense?

Terri
 

paddy555

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Since this is a barefoot thread I just want to post something real quick.

I've given this lots of thought and don't know if it makes sense. For years with my younger horses they were always on a strict 6 week schedule. Blacksmith always trimmed. Because I didn't know any better I thought that normal. My current blacksmith whom I've had for 2 years since the birth of my 2 YO filly. She got a smidgeon of a rasp back in October and a smidgeon of a rasp last week. Not because I'm cheap, but because she wears her feet nicely and my blacksmith takes the time to explain what's happening. This warmblood/TB cross filly has stunning feet and soles and is a rock cruncher. She struggled slightly in the winter when the ground was so wet but I pretty much live in a quarry. Hate the land here. I keep everyone on a low startch diet and strip grazing only at night. But it is my gut feeling that my other horses were compromised early in never really developing the proper foot because everything was overdone. Too much trimming. They do not have crumbly feet but have flatter soles. I would love to go 100% barefoot, unshod behind but I need to move to better facilities and I need to transition 4 with boots. Easier to pay farrier than buying all those front boots right now. Yes I know you all will get at me.

But does any of what I wrote make any sense?

Terri

I would read it differently. You 2yo is rockcrunching because she is putting her diet into growing. Many youngsters are very sound. The owners wonder why on earth they need shoes. Then they get to about 4, need less food to grow and that coincides with the time they are broken and need to start road work. Suddendly the rock crunching youngster becomes footy as the diet doesn't get adjusted.

If your feet are flat I wonder if you still have a diet problem which is preventing the older ones from being successful barefoot. Are you feeding magnesium and a suitable supplement?

I don't think it is how often they are trimmed that is the problem but how much is removed. For some less is more.
What's wrong with a quarry? it sounds great.
 

Fellewell

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There is a big clue in what you have written. 'Crumbling around the nail holes' often happens when a horse has low grade laminitis.

There are many horses that you can just take the shoes off and they are fine. But there are many more that will require dietary and/or management changes - as it is often the negative effects of poor diet/management that lead an owner to barefoot in the first place - eg crumbling hooves.

And cobs at the moment in some areas are really feeling the grass.

So agree with this. We have had a lot of rain in the past two weeks. If he was turned out after removal of shoes and a trim he will be feeling it. Even if his condition score is perfect.
 

cptrayes

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I would read it differently. You 2yo is rockcrunching because she is putting her diet into growing. Many youngsters are very sound. The owners wonder why on earth they need shoes. Then they get to about 4, need less food to grow and that coincides with the time they are broken and need to start road work. Suddendly the rock crunching youngster becomes footy as the diet doesn't get adjusted.

paddy555 I'm so pleased to find someone agrees with my theory that many horses are shod at 3 or 4 not because their feet won't cope with the work they start when they are broken, but because their feet won't cope with their food when their metabolic rate slows due to being nearly full grown :D

Now, how can we get more farriers to persuade their clients to change their youngsters feed instead of putting shoes on just because a horse is starting working? Pigs; wings ... :rolleyes:
 

Goldenstar

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I think it's likely to be the grass too.
OP I would seek the advice of your vet but I think you should be thinking of restricting grazing at once .
 

maggiehorse

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hi all
no pics at mo as its pouring with rain here , hes on very restricted grazing , no hard feed and is a practically perfect bodyweight , owner is away this week so i,ll let you know how he gets on at weekend
 

criso

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hi all
no pics at mo as its pouring with rain here , hes on very restricted grazing , no hard feed and is a practically perfect bodyweight , owner is away this week so i,ll let you know how he gets on at weekend

My TB is spot on for weight, gets a sugar free diet and minerals carefully balanced to forage and is on a fairly rough paddock but at the moment needs night turn out only with a muzzle to keep him happy. Based on previous years, later on in the summer may be able to lose the muzzle but will will stick to night turnout.

It's easy to check, keep him off grass for a few days, if he improves it's an issue if not then need to rethink.
 

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Whilst we're having a barefoot discussion I would like to ask a question - Is it fair to keep a horse stabled during the day when they could be turned out 24/7 just because we want them barefoot? I know that shoes aren't natural for a horse and cause problems later on in life but then stabling is not natural either and most horses I'm sure would rather be out 24/7 than coped up in a stable.

Before I get shot down in flames, my horses are barefoot and Lana is finding it difficult this year because the grass just won't stop growing. She doesn't seem much different just keeping her in during the day but I don't want her in all the time as this seems unfair.

I sometimes wonder though if it's fair to keep her in because she stands at the back of her stable looking miserable. If she had shoes on she could live out 24/7. Am I being stupid? It doesn't help because other liveries say I'm cruel and should just put shoes on so she can lead a more natural life.
 
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