How successful is AI ?????

[Dippy]

As a complete novice/newbee to all of this (but learning as fast as I can) - does anyone have any idea (very roughly) what the success rate of AI is on the first attempt using chilled semem???

I am about to step into this world very soon - so all information greatly received?? - Many thanks

 

[TarrSteps]

It *should* be very good, but evidence would suggest it depends not only a great deal on the stallion (some just don't "ship" as well as others, even if they're not frozen) but on who your vet is. It's worth asking both the stallion owner and your repro vet for their own answers to that question.

 

[Alec Swan]

It depends entirely upon how you go about it, and these are entirely my own views. I have had vets visit my mares, whilst at home, and never yet had a mare hold, and that's from in excess of a dozen attempts. Visiting vets will tell you that they have a 70-80% success rate. They may with others, but not with me they don't.

Just because a mare appears to ovulate, and the evidence arrives via scanning, means very little.

If you were to use a competent stud, and selection is vital, then they probably stand a stallion, or will at the very least, have a teaser. Wrong I may be, but I do believe that the presence of an entire horse, will assist in a fruitful outcome.

By the chuck it in and chance it method, you may be successful, but then you may very well not.

Your best chance of success will centre around a specialist AI centre, or a competent stud.

Good luck.

Alec.

 

[ritajennings]

I agree with Alec, find a vet or AI center that knows what they are doing, try and find out about the stallions semen and how it chills and travels, even then your mare may have problem.

 

[JanetGeorge]

In my experience, results from chilled semen on 1st attempt is as good as results from natural cover,all other things being equal!!

Of course, all other things are not ALWAYS equal. Timing for AI is a bit more critical if you need semen over a week-end, and the ruddy mare ovulates ahead of schedule! And you need a good vet - and good semen! Fortunately, the mares I AI (primarily daughters of my own stallion) go to rita's lovely Archie - and his chilled semen is AWESOME!!

Of course, if a mare is going to be difficult it doesn't matter whether it's natural cover or chilled semen. At my last scanning session,I had two to scan to chilled semen, and two to natural cover. We had one out of two in both cases in foal. But with those who weren't in foal, it was down to the mare in both cases. One had suffered a bad foaling and was pooling urine in the vaginal vault, and the other was an old maiden with fluid retention problems that we didn't 'hit' hard enough! One was AI, one was natural cover, but that had nothing to do with their failure to get in foal.

 

[crellow4]

I have had 2 mares inseminated this season and both took first cycle. The mares were kept at home and the vet scanned at my premises. The vet did comment that the semen quality was exceptional and I suspect that this is a major factor. AI certainly gives you extraordinary choices.

 

[DW Team]

All 4 of my mares have taken first time with A1 this year.

 

[Whizz105]

I can only say from my own experience and I have done A.I twice now with my older mare and she took first time each time and using different stallions.

If done by competent vet/stud it should be very successful in my view xx

 

[JRR]

Over the past three years I am running at a shade under 50% success. If my Trakehner mare scans in foal on Monday I'll be up to 50%.

 

[Marchell]

It depends entirely upon how you go about it, and these are entirely my own views. I have had vets visit my mares, whilst at home, and never yet had a mare hold, and that's from in excess of a dozen attempts. Visiting vets will tell you that they have a 70-80% success rate. They may with others, but not with me they don't.

Just because a mare appears to ovulate, and the evidence arrives via scanning, means very little.

If you were to use a competent stud, and selection is vital, then they probably stand a stallion, or will at the very least, have a teaser. Wrong I may be, but I do believe that the presence of an entire horse, will assist in a fruitful outcome.

By the chuck it in and chance it method, you may be successful, but then you may very well not.

Your best chance of success will centre around a specialist AI centre, or a competent stud.

Good luck.

Alec.

Whilst percentage figures can be quoted and mean a lot to some, they also can be quite misleading.
By 'careful' selection of mares, A.I. centres can in fact increase their percentage positive figures thus making their actual figures appear much healthier. That said, I would actually be highly suspicious of your negative results Alec. 12 negatives suggests that something is radically wrong.

We are an A.I. centre and whilst we also have stallions on the yard and mares are obviously aware of their presence just by sound alone, I dont feel this is a requirement for a successful insemination.

Any vet carrying out scanning for A.I. needs to be experienced and this does not just mean being able to scan to determine pregnancy.The art with A.I. is knowing when to insert the semen and this can only be determined by accurate reading of the scan and taking accurate measurements for comparison on a 48 hourly basis.
We always inject mares in when inseminating with chilled semen otherwise they will no doubt be ripe for ovulation on a Sunday Not Good ! We scan / inject on a Friday and this has worked well for us, with most inseminations taking place on a Tue / Wed.

Semen quality is obviously paramount but in truth no provider should be offering for sale a product from a sub fertile stallion.Or indeed semen which does not meet the standard once chilled / warmed.

The mare obviously needs to be receptive for breeding and in truth the vast majority of Negative results fall on problems involving the mare BUT going back to your vet, they should be able to deterime this on first scan or at the very latest, second scan ( if the follicles are not progressing it will show at this early stage). Suseptible (dirty mares) will also be detected at this stage. (We have just sent home a mare home in foal to our RID stallion.She was inseminated with fresh semen but there is no way she woud have held without a washout and apparently, although she takes first time by natural cover, she always needs washing out so the actual insemination process is no different)

Lastly, but by no means least - you need the semen !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Couriers are notoriously problematic (hence why we use Royal Mail) and the best place for the semen is in the mare.

So to answer your question Dippy - you may get quoted all sorts of different figures but as Janet George says, it depends on all things being equal.

1. Sound breeding mare. (req for any breeding programme)
2. Fertile stallion (req for any breeding programme)
3. Good quality chilled semen.
4. A good Equine Reproduction Vet
5. Competent Inseminator.

 

[holiday]

Couldnt agree more with Marchell!!!

 

[Alec Swan]

Marchell,

whilst I'm not a diarist, I have kept a breeding diary. I've just checked my facts, and I was wrong to say that it was after "in excess of a dozen attempts". It just felt like that! The correct figure was 11, which is still bad enough.

With the exception of one mare, the remaining 3 have been known breeders, some times with foals at foot, and other times not. They have been between 8 and 14 years of age. As you say things have been radically wrong.

I should also have said that when mares are sent to a stud or an AI centre, then the visiting vet will rely heavily upon your input. The home visits which we've had, have been part of a daily round of visits for the vet, and with absolutely no knowledgeable support from us. I suppose that for all our failures, there have probably been just as many valid reasons for the lack of success. I'm not blaming anyone, but myself. The correct protocol hasn't been followed. Our previously haphazard approach hasn't helped, either!

I suppose that most of us think that if we have a home visit, then we're going to save money. That's all very well when it works, but false economy, when it doesn't. I've just paid a bill to a stud of £273. I've yet to receive the vets all in bill, though this will not include additional work as the mare had a major uterine infection, and the mare has come home, following a heart beat scan, and she's in foal, and to a single covering. The stud fee has been paid. Luck? I doubt it, more likely experienced stud work. When offered up against the thousands which we've spent on failure, that was cheap.

Semen quality is, as you say vital. Strangely, every single carrier has delivered semen and with perfect timing. I've also learnt that when I decide upon a stallion, then I leave it to the stud and the stallion owner to liaise with each other. Turning the process into a triangle seems to end in confusion!

From an equine view point, we live in a desert, with very few experienced reproductive specialists. Newmarket is a 2 hour drive, and in the future, that is the direction which we will travel in. There will be failures in the future, that's inevitable, but they wont be of my design, hopefully!

Others have succeeded with home visits. We haven't. There are enough competent AI centres, and reproductive vets dotted about the country, and I would recommend others to use them. These are just my gathered thoughts!

Alec.

 

[Marchell]

I think you may be doing yourself a disservice Alec ( and ourselves probably if the aim is to encourage people to use A.I.Centres LOL!

The mare ages you have quoted "on the face of it" would certainly not class them as "difficult breeding mares". Known fact that some mares with foal at foot will not conceive (either to A.I. or natural service - I have one myself ) so that fact may be problematic but as said, not just with A.I.
Uterine pooling is certainly problematic and one of THE main reasons for failing to get a mare in foal, hence the veterinery intervention required.
For clients who "prefer" in-hand or even worse, running out coverings, this can be problematic if they chose not to go down the intervention route but should not apply with A.I. obviously.

The mare owners input as regards A.I. is limited and I fail to see why you should or can blame yourself? If you say the semen has arrived on time with no issues (lucky you!) then that also is a plus factor.
Assuming that the mare is then inseminated CORRECTLY and at the right TIME then the only factors remaining are the mares breeding soundness and the semen quality.Lets assume the semen is of good quality and the mare is not turned out near other stallions or geldings,not unduly stressed for the next 14 - 18 days then what does that leave you with ?.......

.....Certainly for me my first point of doubt would be your vet, enhanced by a failure rate of 0 / 11 with different mares.Obviously I dont know the full facts and there may be other factors to take into account.

Believe me you cant be in any more of a "desert" than we are - Wales may be famous for its Welsh Cobs from an Equine point of view but thats about it ! We are though VERY lucky to have ONE individual vet who is with us more or less daily, scanning and washing out. Were it not for him and his dedication and interest in the subject we would be well and truly stumped from a vet point of view.

Whilst I agree that experience and convenience of an A.I.centre aids the A.I. process, I would in no way say that it is a requirement for a successful A.I. experience. Financially you are taking a different matter - home vet visits can be horrendously expensive (especially down South I believe) and of course multiple mare exams assist with costs as do Vet Packages.

Congrats on getting your mare in foal and cross fingers for a safe pregnancy but dont blame yourself for the failed attempts.

Jane

 

[Dippy]

Oh gosh - I am learning very quickly!!!!

Many thanks for all your responses - I have started the ball rolling now, so will post again in a few weeks when i have something (hopefully good) to report.

Again - thank you all - any more thoughts greatfully received?

 

[kerilli]

Semen quality is obviously paramount but in truth no provider should be offering for sale a product from a sub fertile stallion.Or indeed semen which does not meet the standard once chilled / warmed.

Sorry to hijack, but Marchell, please could you give me an idea of what you would classify as a "sub fertile stallion", and what the "standard" is (for Frozen semen, ideally, please)?

 

[AndyPandy]

what you would classify as a "sub fertile stallion", and what the "standard" is (for Frozen semen, ideally, please)?

Thought I'd jump in with my two pennies worth here;

For chilled semen, on arrival you hope to have 500 million progressive cells to inseminate with. Normally, in the UK, people send 1000 million (1 billion) proressive cells to allow for a 50% die-off rate during shipping. That 50% die-off is, normally, a worst case scenario.

People get obsessed with progressive motility, but it is NOT the main figure to consider. You need to know how many sperm were shipped, and multiply that by the progressive percentage on arrival to calculate how many progressive sperm cells you have.

For instance:

A stud send you 800 million sperm cells total, and on arrival the progressive motility is around 65%... great! 800 x 0.65 = 520 million progressive cells

A stud send you 2500 million sperm cells total, and on arrival the progressive motility is around 25%... sounds poor right? 25%? Well 2500 x 0.25 = 625 million progressive cells!!

In fact, adequate pregnacy rates have been achieved with lower numbers - around 200-250 million progressive cells, but 500 million progressive cells is said to be the optimum.

Frozen semen is a whole different ball game.

Firstly, a breeding dose will consist of 1 or more straws (up to 8), and those straws will vary in size from 0.25ml to 5ml (and larger "packets" are sometimes seen). The variation in size and numbers is not a concern, but there are two things you should be concerned with.

1) The post-thaw progression should be 30% minimum. This is an industry standard number, and although it does not guarantee fertility, it suggests that enough cells have survived the freeze-thaw process that the overall leveof molecular damage to the cells is low, and that the number of dead sperm cells does not cause an excessive amount of irritation to the mare's endometrium.

2) The total number of sperm cells in the dose, multiplied by the progressive motility gives you a result of 250 million progressive cells or more.

Eg. 1 dose of 8 x 0.5ml straws containing 100 million sperm each = 800 million sperm.
Progressive motility of 35% : 800 x 0.35 = 280 million progressive sperm

The best-subjective- indicator of potential fertility is good progressive motility with a high velocity (or what we call rapid progression). In general, frozen-thawed sperm with good rapid progression tend to have a good fertilising ability.

A sub-fertile stallion (as would classify it) has a first cycle pregnancy rate of less than 50% using fresh/chilled semen, and less than 40% using frozen semen. It is up to the owner of the stallion, or the stud where he stands to monitor these figures.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[maestro]

I do, however, know of a case where the frozen semen thawed was so poor that nothing registered was used anyway and the mare was in foal. You would not want that senario but it does show if a mare is real fertile nothing will get in its way. It was a dead lippizaner stallion so was a super result.

 

[AndyPandy]

I do, however, know of a case where the frozen semen thawed was so poor that nothing registered was used anyway and the mare was in foal. You would not want that senario but it does show if a mare is real fertile nothing will get in its way. It was a dead lippizaner stallion so was a super result.

Yep, that does happen quite often. It's possible to get a mare pregnant with 30-50 million progressive cells (</=5% progressive on most doses), but usually with hysteroscopic (or certainly carefully guided deep-horn) insemination. It only takes one!

 

[Tharg]

What is progressive motility?

The jargon is a bit new to me.

 

[Clepottage]

It only takes one!

So very true.

Wholeheartedly agree with Marchell and Andy here. IME I've had excellent success with AI, in fact, 7 different mares, in excess of 10 different stallions, over 6 years and a 100% first time conception rate. I do have a simply amazing stud vet who is IMHO the reall key to this.

 

[kerilli]

thanks, everyone.
so, if it was frozen semen, and less than 20% motility, you wouldn't be impressed...?
I know 'it only takes one' but surely a few more make it more likely?!
(Tharg, i think 'progressive motility' means 'actually swimming somewhere other than round in circles' but i'm probably wrong.)

 

[AndyPandy]

thanks, everyone.
so, if it was frozen semen, and less than 20% motility, you wouldn't be impressed...?
I know 'it only takes one' but surely a few more make it more likely?!
(Tharg, i think 'progressive motility' means 'actually swimming somewhere other than round in circles' but i'm probably wrong.)

20% progressive motility would not be acceptable for public release. You could try it privately, but would suggest that this was used by specialists and possibly using hysteroscopic insemination. With that number of dead cells, it will be extremely irritating to the mare's uterus as well as having less than the required number of progressive cells for decent pregnancy rates.

Re: progressive motility:

Sperm cells that are not moving are non-motile.
Sperm cells that are moving, swimming forwards, backwards, spinning, twirling or twitching along are motile.
Sperm cells that are swimming in a forward direction (i.e. progressively) and probably capable of fertilizing an egg (being fertilisation-competent) and are known as the "progressively motile" popultion of a semen sample or dose.

Those figures are all usually represented as a percentage (e.g. 65% progressive) or as a concentration (e.g. 120 million cells in each ml are progressive) which is known as the PMC or progressively motile concentration.

Hope that hasn't become too confusing!

 

[kerilli]

20% progressive motility would not be acceptable for public release. You could try it privately, but would suggest that this was used by specialists and possibly using hysteroscopic insemination. With that number of dead cells, it will be extremely irritating to the mare's uterus as well as having less than the required number of progressive cells for decent pregnancy rates.

Thank you AP. Unfortunately this was public release and last month... as you can guess, I am not happy at all. The AI was done at Twemlows (where the semen is also stored, fwiw) and I trust them absolutely to do the best possible job they can.
Is there anything I can do, do you think, please? Might I have a right to a full refund because the semen sample was not up to industry standard, perhaps?
Any help hugely appreciated, thankyou.
Apologies for thread hijack!