How to deal with stubborn nappy mare

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RIDMagic

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Hoping for some advice again!

I've only owned my 4 yr old mare for about 3 months, and since I got her she has been nappy hacking out. I know the previous owners hacked her out for miles on her own, so I know she can do it. She can be very stubborn. She hasn't done anything dangerous as in rearing etc, she just turns round and tries to walk home. The problem is I just can not get her to turn back no matter how hard I pull on the rein. She just keeps walking forward with her head twisted to the side. The more leg I use, the faster she goes. She doesn't yet understand that one leg means yield, not forward. And even if she did I'm sure she would ignore it anyway! She is perfect to hack in company, or even with somebody walking alongside us, and we have been out with somebody walking behind with a big stick to make lots of noise and stop her coming past if she tries (not to smack her with I might add!) And that also works well after a few times. But as soon as I go back to being alone she takes the mickey again. She can also be nappy in the school if she decides she's had enough. Although she's young she is not scared, very quiet with traffic, she's just taking advantage of me. I don't ride with a whip or spurs but have tried taking a schooling whip and it didn't make a difference. If I could just get her to turn back around once she's turned for home then it would be ok, but I cant! Many times I've ended up jumping off, turning her round, leading her back up the lane, getting back on, only to repeat the whole process again. Any tips would be appreciated! Thanks.
 
pull much much harder. fix your hand right round behind your knee. they will turn then or fall over. sounds harsh but this is what they do with race horses etc. if you dont do it now as a 4 yr old she will learn this is acceptable. put two hands on one rein if you have to. if she always turns the same way ie; to the right to turn round and go home then be prepared and dont let her turn round in the first place. pony club kicks and make her go your way.
 
Thanks for the advice. I must admit although I try not to be, I am a bit of a soft touch, I guess I'm just going to have to try to be firmer. I'll be trying again today so will see how it goes. Problem is I need to stop her doing it now before it gets out of hand and she starts thinking it's acceptable. The roads are quiet round my yard but obviously on a busier road it would be downright dangerous.
 
When she turns round can you keep her turning? If you can try spinning her round afew times and stopping when you are in the direction YOU want to go and then kick her on. This could be enough to confuse her and she may give up on the idea.
I feel your pain though Herbs was a nappy little git when I first got him (he still can be if he's in the mood) It made no diffrence with him if we were in company or on our own he would still nap. I tried it all with him.
Spinning on the spot, walking him backwards, waiting him out, trying to drive him on. Non of it worked. The only thing that worked was if I got off and dragged him up the road then got back on after a while only to walk 100yards and repeat the whole process again. To begin with I spent 90% of our hack walking. I have to admit I was horrid to him when I was leading him. I got so cross with him and would drag him along. When I was on bord I was realy nice to him. Lots of praise when he walked on ect... I know most will tell you you should never get off but it worked for Herbie and I. He soon realised he wasn't going to get out of going for a ride and it was much nicer when I was riding him than when I was leading him.
Good luck with your mare I hope you find an answer soon. :)
 
It's so frustrating isn't it!! Why can't they just realise life will be much easier for them if they just keep walking!! It's interesting that the getting off and leading trick worked for you. For us it doesn't seem to be working at all. How long did it take you to overcome the problem?

At first I did try to keeping her turning, so she ended up turning in a full circle and facing back the correct way again. That did work for about a week, until she clocked on to the idea! Now it doesn't work. My instructor told me off for doing that, e.g. if my horse turns left to go home, I always need to turn her back right otherwise she will think it's ok to turn whichever direction she wants!

I think I will just have to try and be really firm with her, strong legs, strong voice, and make her do it. If she was genuinely scared then of course it would be different but she isn't. She's just taking advantage of me! I know we'll get there eventually, it's just frustrating in the meantime. I wonder if I should also work on some groundwork to establish some respect; as I'm sure the natural horsemanship people would say that if your horse really respects you, then it would trust you and do as you ask instead of putting up this protest.
 
If your mare is napping she is clearly not confident to hack on her own so why make her? She is only 4 and while some horses will happily hack on their own at this age - some will not. If I were you I would only hack her out with a sensible companion at least for the next 12 months to build up her confidence.
 
It's frustraiting yes. The amount of times my OH would phone me and I was in tears dragging Herbs along the road. I nearly gave up on him so many times. I often threatened him with the meatman. :o I wish I could say Herbie came round quickly but sadly not It took over a year till I could get on him in the yard and just go for a normal ride sat on his back the entire way. It took a while to see any progress and then he would seem to improve alittle for one or two hacks then we would be back at square one again. It was litraly 1 step forwards and 3 back most of the time :( The main trouble with Herbie was he wasn't young (He was 8) and had got away with it his whole life. He came with lots of other issues to. (Not shore if you know the story)
This is why I think it took him so long. Hopefuly with your mare she is just young and testing you. As you say you need to be much firmer with her and nip this in the bud before it ends up a habbit.
When you ride her in company does she go infront?
 
Well done for persevering and beating the problem. I know how you feel and it's only been a few months. We have only been out in company once because the yard I'm at is very quiet and there are only a couple of other liveries, and as I work full time they aren't there at the same times I'm there, so there isn't much opportunity to go out in company. I have roped my OH, my mum and a friend into walking out with us, and when we do that she's great, so my plan was to gradually have them walk behind us instead of alongside and make her take the lead. I'm hopeful that will work. I'm sure many people would say she needs a good crack with the whip and to 'show her who's boss' but that's just not me, and I feel torn between doing it the kinder (longer) way, and toughening up and making her do it. I know she's young and I'm conscious that I don't want to ruin her, although barring a natural disaster or other unforeseen circumstance, she'll be with me forever.

I don't know the story about Herbie but am interested to know what it is?

She definitely is testing me and it isn't an ingrained habit (yet), but I know it will be if I don't sort this out. I guess perseverance is the answer. Thanks for encouraging me :)
 
Thankyou. Sounds like a good plan with people walking then slowly dropping behind. Although she doesn't seem scared she is young and could just be unsure about going out on her own. That sounds a great way to build her confidance. I'm not a fluffy bunny hugger but I don't like just giving them a "good crack with the whip" If I did that with Herbs I'd be on the floor for a start off. You can still be firm and tough on then without resorting to hitting them. I used to whack my boot with the whip sometimes and the sound was enough to make Herbs go forwards.

This video shows Herbies story upto last year. This year we have done more jumping (getting placed everytime) More inhand showing and we have even done our first ridden showing class and came 6th. It's deffinatly worth persevering. He can still be horrid sometimes (He's known as "the horrid one" ) But I love him so much and wouldn't be without him for the world now.

[video=youtube_share;MfFtecxiKp0]http://youtu.be/MfFtecxiKp0[/video]

And no worries. If you ever need any advice or just someone to talk to (have a good old moan at ;) ) Feel free to PM me and i'll try to help, or just lend an ear to bend. I know how tough it is but believe me it's worth it. :)
 
vanrim said:
If your mare is napping she is clearly not confident to hack on her own so why make her? She is only 4 and while some horses will happily hack on their own at this age - some will not. If I were you I would only hack her out with a sensible companion at least for the next 12 months to build up her confidence.
Click to expand...

She needs to get used to going alone. How is waiting 12 months going to solve the issue? She will be the same come 12 months time, if not worse as she will be even more accustomed to being with another horse.
 
I am used too dealing with youngsters and mares in particular. When they nap it often appears to be naughty but it is often their way of telling you they are frightened. If a mare is frightened of something it is not always best to tackle it head on and force them. My experience is that if they are given confidence at the start by being with another horse they are quite happy to go on their own. I do not agree with your statement that the horse will be the same in 12 months as that has not been my experience. Yes she needs to get used to going alone but she clearly is not ready for it at 4. As I said earlier, some horses are born confident and some need time to gain confidence.
 
Sit deep in the saddle, breath and relax, and be positive look ahead you will give her the confidence feeling she needs and when she naps, belt her, just once and mean it, and ride like the devil is chasing you, she wont do it again, because you have told her you are the boss, you are the rider, you are not a passenger, have fun.

If you need to use your voice as well with a highly explicit growl do it, nothing worse than a nappy horse
 
vanrim said:
I am used too dealing with youngsters and mares in particular. When they nap it often appears to be naughty but it is often their way of telling you they are frightened. If a mare is frightened of something it is not always best to tackle it head on and force them. My experience is that if they are given confidence at the start by being with another horse they are quite happy to go on their own. I do not agree with your statement that the horse will be the same in 12 months as that has not been my experience. Yes she needs to get used to going alone but she clearly is not ready for it at 4. As I said earlier, some horses are born confident and some need time to gain confidence.
Click to expand...

How refreshing!
 
Flowersblossom123 said:
She needs to get used to going alone. How is waiting 12 months going to solve the issue? She will be the same come 12 months time, if not worse as she will be even more accustomed to being with another horse.
Click to expand...

The mare needs to learn a lot of things.

She needs to learn her rider is to be trusted and that frightening things don't happen when she has a rider (and that, in my book, includes sudden attacks from the same rider - horses aren't stupid, they don't think a whip crack comes out of the air).

She needs to know that her current rider is trustworthy and predictable.

She needs to learn about going away from her home and her friends.

She needs to learn how to cope with traffic, cars, bicycles, trailers, lorries, wheelie bins.

She needs to learn what her rider will ask of her while out, and she needs a rider who understand that a horse needs to be taught things like leg yield, gate opening/closing behaviour, standing still at junctions.

And after all that, then she needs to learn that it's OK to leave horsey companions behind.

All of these things are best learned when the horse isn't feeling anxious about other "unknowns" - it's very hard to teach a horse to leg yield, if they're (a) worrying about being on their own, (b) worrying about sudden appearance of a bicycle from behind, (c) worrying about whether the rider will hit them again...

The best way to reduce a young horse's anxiety is to do things slowly, build up gradually what they have to deal with, and give them the reassurance of another horse as company. Humans on foot help (but they're not quite as reassuring as another horse).

She's not taking advantage - she's a horse. She can only think of herself and her own safety, other species don't have the ability to work out what we're thinking and second guess us - if they did, it's unlikely they'd have much to do with us at all!

Just because a horse isn't sweating, squealing, rearing or bucking doesn't mean they're not afraid. Horses have a hierarchy of fear responses, and unless there's an immediate threat to run from, they usually start with the freeze response... yup, that means standing still in the middle of the road. It's not stubbornness, it's fear. If I tried to make a (human) friend join me in a jolly zip wire jaunt off a 10 storey building, but they just stood there at the top of the building and refused to jump off - would you say they were stubborn or afraid? The unknown is scary to horses in exactly the way it is to humans :)

Vanrim's advice is your best bet :)
 
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Brightbay and vanrim may i say your posts are the most refreshing i have read for along time and having owned a mare who was "dangerou&unrideable"!!!!!but who i spent time with winning her trust and confidence i agree with all you have said. The mare become "the horse of my life"
 
Brightbay and vanrim are right, really good advice.
You haven't really been together long and really.need to build up that bond also.
When I first got my current loan horse he napped a lot but it took a lot of walking out in hand and trust building and an awful lot of sitting quietly in the saddle whilst he was rooted to the spot so he could get comfortable. When I felt him start to relax again I ask him to walk on. It didn't always work but I praised every inch he moved forward. Usually when I got him going again I would then turn him and head for home after a few yards, when he was relaxed as I didn't want to overload him to much. Never yank on her mouth or kick hard and remember when you get angry and start pulling and kicking she won't understand what you are asking which will add to her panic. Talk too her and love her to death with every step but first you really need to build her confidence with herself and with you.

Take it slow it can't happen over night forcing her will create more problems.
Good luck!
 
Brightbay said:
The mare needs to learn a lot of things.

She needs to learn her rider is to be trusted and that frightening things don't happen when she has a rider (and that, in my book, includes sudden attacks from the same rider - horses aren't stupid, they don't think a whip crack comes out of the air).

She needs to know that her current rider is trustworthy and predictable.

She needs to learn about going away from her home and her friends.

She needs to learn how to cope with traffic, cars, bicycles, trailers, lorries, wheelie bins.

She needs to learn what her rider will ask of her while out, and she needs a rider who understand that a horse needs to be taught things like leg yield, gate opening/closing behaviour, standing still at junctions.

And after all that, then she needs to learn that it's OK to leave horsey companions behind.

All of these things are best learned when the horse isn't feeling anxious about other "unknowns" - it's very hard to teach a horse to leg yield, if they're (a) worrying about being on their own, (b) worrying about sudden appearance of a bicycle from behind, (c) worrying about whether the rider will hit them again...

The best way to reduce a young horse's anxiety is to do things slowly, build up gradually what they have to deal with, and give them the reassurance of another horse as company. Humans on foot help (but they're not quite as reassuring as another horse).

She's not taking advantage - she's a horse. She can only think of herself and her own safety, other species don't have the ability to work out what we're thinking and second guess us - if they did, it's unlikely they'd have much to do with us at all!

Just because a horse isn't sweating, squealing, rearing or bucking doesn't mean they're not afraid. Horses have a hierarchy of fear responses, and unless there's an immediate threat to run from, they usually start with the freeze response... yup, that means standing still in the middle of the road. It's not stubbornness, it's fear. If I tried to make a (human) friend join me in a jolly zip wire jaunt off a 10 storey building, but they just stood there at the top of the building and refused to jump off - would you say they were stubborn or afraid? The unknown is scary to horses in exactly the way it is to humans :)

Vanrim's advice is your best bet :)
Click to expand...

vanrim said:
I am used too dealing with youngsters and mares in particular. When they nap it often appears to be naughty but it is often their way of telling you they are frightened. If a mare is frightened of something it is not always best to tackle it head on and force them. My experience is that if they are given confidence at the start by being with another horse they are quite happy to go on their own. I do not agree with your statement that the horse will be the same in 12 months as that has not been my experience. Yes she needs to get used to going alone but she clearly is not ready for it at 4. As I said earlier, some horses are born confident and some need time to gain confidence.
Click to expand...

Lovely to hear/read these posts advocating time understanding and patience rather than violence
 
Thanks everyone for your replies, it's great to know I can come here for advice when I need it. Laura, I had a tear in my eye watching that video, what an amazing story. Miracles can happen :) I'll PM you soon.
Vanrim, I understand what you're saying about her showing fear. If I think about it logically, the napping must be partly to do with a lack of confidence otherwise I guess she would also do it with someone on foot. Whereas if there is somebody walking alongside her head, she would be happy to plod along for miles. As soon as you ask her to take the lead, she loses confidence and tries to turn for home. Having said all that, she *is* a typical stubborn mare and can be nappy in the school when she decides she's had enough, so I think perhaps it's a mixture of stubbornness and anxiety. This afternoon I went for a walk with my OH and asked him to keep dropping back a bit. A few times she did turn for home but with stronger rein and strong voice (growling lol) I did manage to get her to turn back and carry on. I am not really happy about doing that as I want her to want to go, without me having to force her, but maybe I'm just being a bit soft and idealistic. I'm literally only going about 0.2 miles from the yard, so I'm not taking her out of her comfort zone. She has been a fair bit further than that with somebody walking with us. It's a difficult line between building her confidence by walking out with someone, but at the same time letting her know that it's not ok to just turn for home whenever she fancies it. She needs to respect what I'm asking her to do and ATM I don't feel like she does.

On the positive side, I never ride with a whip so she's not worried about getting a whack, and she has a very quiet nature so is not worried about cars, bikes, lorries, yellow salt bins, plastic bags etc. For a 4 year old she is so laid back, she's brilliant in that way.

EffyCorsten, it's great to hear that you've overcome napping with your horse. If my mare just stopped, I would be more than happy to sit and reassure her for 2 hours before getting one step if that's what it took, but she doesn't stop before she turns, she just turns and walks. So I have to do something immediately otherwise we'd end up back at home! But you're right, we haven't been together long so do need to build up a bond, I don't think she really trusts me or respects me yet... in fact I often think she doesn't actually like me at all as she never seems pleased to see me, she isn't particularly affectionate and most of the time she has her ears back - not all the way back but not forward either, if you know what I mean!! I just know she's got so much to give and I really hope we build a bond eventually.
 
Brightbay, I've just been rereading your post and found it really interesting. It's always great to hear from people who support 'non-violent' methods. I agree that she has a lot to learn when out on a hack, and I'm confident we'll get there with time and perseverance. I guess I'm looking at the bigger picture so can interpret her behaviour differently, if that makes sense. For example, she seems to just tolerateme rather than enjoy my company. If I ask her to trot up in hand, she does it reluctantly and with her ears way back, as though she's really annoyed about it. It's not a pain thing as she trots off to her mates in the field no problem at all, so I assume she is just showing her disrespect to me. She never bites, kicks etc. but she often has her ears back when I'm grooming her, doing the girth up, just general stuff. She wasn't like that when I first got her a few months ago so I know it's me she's directing it at (as opposed to her generally being a moody mare). I love her to bits and always try to make stuff enjoyable for her, she's not ridden every day, and I just want to have a good bond with her. I really hope it comes in time and it's not just a case of her not liking me! Went a bit off topic there... ;)
 
Give it time you'll get a bond. Mares can be very elusive. I'm shore she likes you realy. Herbie can be awful to me sometimes but other times he's as sweet as can be. He loves me, but in his own funny little way.
Spend lots of time with her when you can. Give her a good groom and just sit with her a while sometimes. Bonds don't happen overnight and I think the ones you have to work hardest with give you the strongest bond in the end.
My old mare was much worse than Herbie when she came to me. You couldn't even go in the field without her trying to kill you. It took me 6 months just to catch her. But in the end she was my very best friend and gave me the most amazing 12 years.
 
And its also worth remembering horses are often reacting for other reasons. my mares previous owner went for the whip when she started rearing spinning and bolting. i choose patience confidence and trust. after spending months on groundwrork and then slowly rebacking her we hacked jumped galloped etc with no issues if she got uptight over something a quiet word and pat was all needed. What i didnt know was she was going blind. vet believed it started before i bought her and her reactiin of rearing was the result. Bless her she trusted me totally and utterly and the bond we built was amazing :)
 
Great post. Worth rereading.

Brightbay said:
The mare needs to learn a lot of things.

She needs to learn her rider is to be trusted and that frightening things don't happen when she has a rider (and that, in my book, includes sudden attacks from the same rider - horses aren't stupid, they don't think a whip crack comes out of the air).

She needs to know that her current rider is trustworthy and predictable.

She needs to learn about going away from her home and her friends.

She needs to learn how to cope with traffic, cars, bicycles, trailers, lorries, wheelie bins.

She needs to learn what her rider will ask of her while out, and she needs a rider who understand that a horse needs to be taught things like leg yield, gate opening/closing behaviour, standing still at junctions.

And after all that, then she needs to learn that it's OK to leave horsey companions behind.

All of these things are best learned when the horse isn't feeling anxious about other "unknowns" - it's very hard to teach a horse to leg yield, if they're (a) worrying about being on their own, (b) worrying about sudden appearance of a bicycle from behind, (c) worrying about whether the rider will hit them again...

The best way to reduce a young horse's anxiety is to do things slowly, build up gradually what they have to deal with, and give them the reassurance of another horse as company. Humans on foot help (but they're not quite as reassuring as another horse).

She's not taking advantage - she's a horse. She can only think of herself and her own safety, other species don't have the ability to work out what we're thinking and second guess us - if they did, it's unlikely they'd have much to do with us at all!

Just because a horse isn't sweating, squealing, rearing or bucking doesn't mean they're not afraid. Horses have a hierarchy of fear responses, and unless there's an immediate threat to run from, they usually start with the freeze response... yup, that means standing still in the middle of the road. It's not stubbornness, it's fear. If I tried to make a (human) friend join me in a jolly zip wire jaunt off a 10 storey building, but they just stood there at the top of the building and refused to jump off - would you say they were stubborn or afraid? The unknown is scary to horses in exactly the way it is to humans :)

Vanrim's advice is your best bet :)
Click to expand...
 
I could lunge her, and I also have a pressure halter so can do some groundwork with her. Hopefully that will help. Babymare, so sorry to hear about your horse's problems. It's a real reminder that sometimes you have to look deeper for a reason why your horse might be misbehaving.
 
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