staceyn
Well-Known Member
Basically wanted to try out join up anyone done it ? And how ? Think it would be beneficial for me and the horses to get a better bond. Has it worked for you ?
how to do join up ?
- Thread starter staceyn
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fishy
Well-Known Member
Hi, my daughter did join up with her new pony. They had a bumpy start and it knocked my daughters confidence, so we thought we'd give it a try. We watched Monty Roberts on YouTube - lots of times and with lots of horses until we were pretty sure what we were supposed to do. Then she tried it (she was 13 at the time) and sure enough the little fella did it, he followed her happily round the paddock and still does. I'm pretty sure that it helped them both bond in the early days. Give it a go!!!
Persephone
Well-Known Member
Ok from the other point of view! it did nothing but confuse my filly, I think it very much depends on the horse, because I had done it many times previously. I don't think I will do it again tbh!
Doogal
Well-Known Member
You're probably best learning how to do it properly on a natural horsemanship website - I read a description in a book and guessed but it still worked! You need a small, enclosed area, round pens are ideal or corner off a bit of your arena.
Send them away from you and keep them moving. Use dominant body language to get them moving away & forwards (direct eye contact, make yourself big etc) you need to get them totally focused on you and your body language.
Change their direction regularly by heading them off - the more you do it, the quicker they get at reading your body language and you can eventually do it just by side stepping rather than launching yourself across the arena!)
Every time they stop, keep sending them on.
Look for signs such as lowering head, chewing, licking or keeping an ear on you all the time, and then turn your back on the horse, dont look at them, stand very still to give him the opportunity to approach you.
They usually stop and watch for a bit. If they dont walk towards you, you need to send them on again for a bit before you try again and give them the opportunity. This may happen a few times.
When they eventually "join up" they will walk up behind you and follow you around like a shadow when you start walking. Don't look at them.
Not all horses give the same signs though - My horse never licks or chews, I just give him the opportunity to come when I think he looks attentive. The first few times took a while - we were locked in a battle of wills at that point (hence the join up!) - but these days we both really enjoy the experience and it is usually very short. He likes to show me how fast and impressive he is (with lots of dramatic head tossing) as join up is very exciting and I get to feel like a magician because he is so tuned into my body language now. I can send him on by raising the arm that is closest to his bottom, slow him by raising the other one and make him change direction in canter by shifting my weight on to the foot nearest his front. Amazing experience.
Send them away from you and keep them moving. Use dominant body language to get them moving away & forwards (direct eye contact, make yourself big etc) you need to get them totally focused on you and your body language.
Change their direction regularly by heading them off - the more you do it, the quicker they get at reading your body language and you can eventually do it just by side stepping rather than launching yourself across the arena!)
Every time they stop, keep sending them on.
Look for signs such as lowering head, chewing, licking or keeping an ear on you all the time, and then turn your back on the horse, dont look at them, stand very still to give him the opportunity to approach you.
They usually stop and watch for a bit. If they dont walk towards you, you need to send them on again for a bit before you try again and give them the opportunity. This may happen a few times.
When they eventually "join up" they will walk up behind you and follow you around like a shadow when you start walking. Don't look at them.
Not all horses give the same signs though - My horse never licks or chews, I just give him the opportunity to come when I think he looks attentive. The first few times took a while - we were locked in a battle of wills at that point (hence the join up!) - but these days we both really enjoy the experience and it is usually very short. He likes to show me how fast and impressive he is (with lots of dramatic head tossing) as join up is very exciting and I get to feel like a magician because he is so tuned into my body language now. I can send him on by raising the arm that is closest to his bottom, slow him by raising the other one and make him change direction in canter by shifting my weight on to the foot nearest his front. Amazing experience.
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horsemadelsie
Well-Known Member
Tried it with my youngster as he's generally stressy and nippy and generally bad-mannered (he is improving, just at his own pace 
) The difference was amazing- he just plodded round like a little lead pony, completely relaxed. That was until I took him out the arena, where he resumed his usual antics. Once he point blank refused to come to me, but decided to just eat the surface of the arena. Eventually, after chasing him round for aaaagggeeeesssss, I went almost all the way up to him and then he followed me- it was like he was just too lazy to come all the way by himself!
) The difference was amazing- he just plodded round like a little lead pony, completely relaxed. That was until I took him out the arena, where he resumed his usual antics. Once he point blank refused to come to me, but decided to just eat the surface of the arena. Eventually, after chasing him round for aaaagggeeeesssss, I went almost all the way up to him and then he followed me- it was like he was just too lazy to come all the way by himself! FionaM12
Well-Known Member
What puts me off doing it is just the lack of a suitable sized enclosed area to try it in. In all the demos, they use a round pen which is perfect, but I don't know anyone who has one.
I suspect if I did it in the manege, there would be too much space and when I did the chasing away bit, wouldn't my horse just say "fair enough" and b***er off to the other end?
I suspect if I did it in the manege, there would be too much space and when I did the chasing away bit, wouldn't my horse just say "fair enough" and b***er off to the other end?
'S'teamed
Well-Known Member
it's a load of crap
dont even try...you'll feck your pony up big time
dont even try...you'll feck your pony up big time
Dippy Zippy
Well-Known Member
i was lucky enough to have a sand ring where i used to live. I did it with most of my ponies and several thoroughbreds and they all took to it very well and used to follow me around everywhere. However, i had one ridiculously stubborn, bargy, strong horse and he wouldn't do it, he wouldn't even lunge, so i think it's very dependent on the horse, but definitely worth a try
Ibblebibble
Well-Known Member
not quite sure what you're getting at, do you think you could make yourself a bit clearer
TBH i don't think most horses need it, it can be a useful tool for horses that do have trust issues but that's about it. i tried it with one of mine and it confused the heck out of him and afterwards he was impossible to lunge as he thought i was trying to join up and just kept running to me for forgiveness
if you really want to do it then like someone has already mentioned, watch it over and over on you tube and learn the method of seeing the signs from the horse or you really will do more damage than good
hannahc
Active Member
The best way is to learn from someone who knows how Join-Up works. You are taught J-U on the Intelligent Horsemanship 5 day course, or on the Perfect Manners weekend. The important things apart from knowing how to actually DO J-U is knowing when NOT to use it, how long it should take, and what to do if the horse doesn't immediately come in.
The easiest way to improve your bond is to work through some basic leading/handling exercises, Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks has some good exercises, you don't actually need to do Join-Up
The easiest way to improve your bond is to work through some basic leading/handling exercises, Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks has some good exercises, you don't actually need to do Join-Up
Ginger Bear
Well-Known Member
I did it with my tb gelding & now he follows me & plays like a 'tag' game lol.. Tried it with my mums mare who is very dominant & she wasn't having any of it!!!! Lol
jinglejoys
Well-Known Member
If you've got something that likes running try it but study it first it works on flighty animals.Mules etc (fight not flight)...FooooorGET it!
misterjinglejay
Well-Known Member
We used to do it with relatively unhandled youngsters. We didn't have a round pen, but had a small grass paddock, and just rounded off the corners using jump poles.
Admittedly, we had to do quite a bit of running to chase them away cos of the size of it, but it always worked, and the ponies were much easier, and dare I say it, happier afterwards.
When I was practicing, before working on the youngsters, I used MJ, and he just got confused as we had quite a strong bond anyway (well, I thought we did - he might disagree ).
We were lucky enough to have a Kelly Marks trained livery on our yard, so that was really useful.
Admittedly, we had to do quite a bit of running to chase them away cos of the size of it, but it always worked, and the ponies were much easier, and dare I say it, happier afterwards.
When I was practicing, before working on the youngsters, I used MJ, and he just got confused as we had quite a strong bond anyway (well, I thought we did - he might disagree
).We were lucky enough to have a Kelly Marks trained livery on our yard, so that was really useful.
Toffee44
Well-Known Member
I make up a 10m circle with electric fencing.
The trick is to keep pushing on and changing direction until you get the signals lip chewing, drooping lip, ears relaxed, tail relaxed, saliva, soft eyes, lowered head.
Then invite in, I give them two chances, both with thinking time (ie invite in, stand for a minute let horse think about what I am asking/ implying) if they dont get it I push on again maybe only once round and invite in.
Once in reward with scratch to head. But if your not sure how to do it either A) keep watching monty roberts/ kelly marks do it not just joe and bob on you tube. B) get someone who knows what they are doing in.
Toffee is great fun, she will follow over a set of jumps. After I did a session with Samba I never had a problem catching her like I did.
The trick is to keep pushing on and changing direction until you get the signals lip chewing, drooping lip, ears relaxed, tail relaxed, saliva, soft eyes, lowered head.
Then invite in, I give them two chances, both with thinking time (ie invite in, stand for a minute let horse think about what I am asking/ implying) if they dont get it I push on again maybe only once round and invite in.
Once in reward with scratch to head. But if your not sure how to do it either A) keep watching monty roberts/ kelly marks do it not just joe and bob on you tube. B) get someone who knows what they are doing in.
Toffee is great fun, she will follow over a set of jumps. After I did a session with Samba I never had a problem catching her like I did.
Shantara
Well-Known Member
Even when I did it slightly wrong, I got great results. I started with a grumpy horse who tolerated me, but I could see that he would rather just be in his pen or in the field.
I now have a horse who'd follow me nearly anywhere and actually likes being with me! Sure, I have done other bonding activities, but I think the Join-Up gave us that kick start we really needed. So no, it's not a load of crap.
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
Interesting the diverse opinions and results people get. Take out those with no interest, and the results show that it works for some horses but not others.
I don't use it as its ok to use at a demo to impress, but not as a long term training tool.
I don't use it as its ok to use at a demo to impress, but not as a long term training tool.
staceyn
Well-Known Member
I did try it with my baby but I just confused him plus the arena was too big it Just didn't seem to work so it must be me doing something wrong thanks for the comments .
Wagtail
Horse servant
I don't like join up particularly. I especially don't like it when you have a horse that is perfectly well behaved and respects your space. I also don't like it with nervous horses. The ONLY time I would use it is with a bolshy, left brained and dominant horse. Or one that refuses to be caught (not out of fear or nervousness, but through stubborness).
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
That's funny Wagtail, the worse results always seem to be with dominant left brained types. As I say I don't use it, as it gives poor outcomes on those that need it but is not necessary on less challenging horses.
I use different techniques to 'join up' it is a bit simplistic, I want better permanent results.
I use different techniques to 'join up' it is a bit simplistic, I want better permanent results.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I do agree with you in that join up is always more successful with the more subservient types. I actually never use it myself as I feel it confuses the horses already well bonded to a handler, and, as you say, is less successful with the more dominant, bolshy animals. My statement was merely to say that I WOULD use it on those types if their owners insisted on it, but would not on the more timid or mild mannered horses. The only time I would RECOMMEND the use of it, or a FORM of it, is when a horse will not be caught. I have found that by firstly keeping that horse in a smaller paddock (with or without others) and by use of several people to send the horse away, that by sending the horse away and keeping it moving until it starts licking and chewing, it allows you to catch the horse. Repeating this a number of times results in the horse eventually always allowing a single person to catch it. But it is not true join up as in a round pen etc. I see little benefit in real join up.
midnight mayhem
Well-Known Member
I've tried both lunging and join up with one of my horses..he either jumped out the arena or attacked me. Very perplexing as this is not his nature, he's a lazy bombproof type and easy to handle.
NoseyPosey
Well-Known Member
Well I tried it yesterday and was amazed. It was intended for my new Shire who doesn't respect my space and generally seems like she'd rather be somewhere else. As I hadn't done it before, my fiance showed me how to do it with our faithful longest owned horse. Then I tried it on the horse we've only had for a couple of months but already has good manners and then on my girl, all with exactly the same results. We did it in a small rectangular pen which did have the potential to corner the horse so we had to ensure we kept chasing from one side but the important thing was that we were able to keep them going, on OUR terms until WE wanted to stop. Then when I stopped I made sure I looked away, adopted a relaxed body posture (one leg slightly bent & relaxed as a horse would do) and finally rewarded the horse.
It's been explained to me that the idea behind it is to mimic what the head mare would do in the wild. An unruly youngster will be pushed out of the herd repeatedly until it learns its lesson and is allowed back. The reason the "naughty" horse wants to be back in the safety zone of the herd is not so much because of the safety aspect but more because it trusts the head mare and will look to it for direction (which is why a "joined up" horse will then follow but also keep a respectful distance. This thinking was backed up by remembering when our usually trustworthy & confident horse wouldn't go over a small wooden bridge once. The horse is putting it's trust in us, the rider (head mare) so when I got off, walked over the bridge several times and then lead her over it she would cross the same bridge everytime after that.
I vaguely remember my stepson doing it with his 7 month old foal last year as well so now I've seen & done it myself with 4 seperate horses all with different temperaments and at different ages I'm a believer.
It's been explained to me that the idea behind it is to mimic what the head mare would do in the wild. An unruly youngster will be pushed out of the herd repeatedly until it learns its lesson and is allowed back. The reason the "naughty" horse wants to be back in the safety zone of the herd is not so much because of the safety aspect but more because it trusts the head mare and will look to it for direction (which is why a "joined up" horse will then follow but also keep a respectful distance. This thinking was backed up by remembering when our usually trustworthy & confident horse wouldn't go over a small wooden bridge once. The horse is putting it's trust in us, the rider (head mare) so when I got off, walked over the bridge several times and then lead her over it she would cross the same bridge everytime after that.
I vaguely remember my stepson doing it with his 7 month old foal last year as well so now I've seen & done it myself with 4 seperate horses all with different temperaments and at different ages I'm a believer.
Wagtail
Horse servant
This is where I have a problem with it. The horse you are doing 'join up' with usually hasn't been unruly or naughty, yet you are sending them away 'like the lead mare would'. Why? I can see the point in it if you are working in the manege with your horse and it kicks you or barges you or similar, if you then immediately send it away. But to take in a perfectly well behaved horse and to send it away as though it has been naughty, only causes stress for the horse. Of course it will lick and chew and then follow you about afterwards, because it is so relieved you have suddenly decided to accept it back.
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
Wagtail, I agree with your comments. I understand why you would use it on a horse difficult to catch. Join up has been called 'the catching game' in other techniques.
Ladyinred
Well-Known Member
Yep.
Put your brain into gear and sit down and really think about the mixed messages you are giving your horse when you try this! And bear in mind that the reason he/she follows you afterwards is because in a confined space the safest place to be with something scary is behind it so the horse knows where it is. Join-up "works" (to an extent) but the mental damage you might do far outweighs the short term ego boost of having your horse follow you.
TBH it is all smoke and mirrors and a clever marketing strategy that has taken a horses fears and put a positive spin on them.
Ladyinred
Well-Known Member
This is where I have a problem with it. The horse you are doing 'join up' with usually hasn't been unruly or naughty, yet you are sending them away 'like the lead mare would'. Why? I can see the point in it if you are working in the manege with your horse and it kicks you or barges you or similar, if you then immediately send it away. But to take in a perfectly well behaved horse and to send it away as though it has been naughty, only causes stress for the horse. Of course it will lick and chew and then follow you about afterwards, because it is so relieved you have suddenly decided to accept it back.
Oh for a 'like' button. This is one of the arguments I have so often used against it....
NoseyPosey
Well-Known Member
This is where I have a problem with it. The horse you are doing 'join up' with usually hasn't been unruly or naughty, yet you are sending them away 'like the lead mare would'. Why? I can see the point in it if you are working in the manege with your horse and it kicks you or barges you or similar, if you then immediately send it away. But to take in a perfectly well behaved horse and to send it away as though it has been naughty, only causes stress for the horse. Of course it will lick and chew and then follow you about afterwards, because it is so relieved you have suddenly decided to accept it back.
I didn't say she was perfectly well behaved - just faithful & longest owned. She can have her moments and needs reminding who's boss every now and again but she did require the minimum of chasing and therefore had the minimum of stress, if any.
It's not just about a head mare disciplining an unruly foal either - a herd (or domestic group) is constantly re-asserting the pecking order (you only have to watch that with any group of at least 3 horses) so all we're doing is ensuring the human is at the top of it but by using the horses "language"
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
To be honest, all these techniques have a place in training, but you should apply them appropriately, and not just be giving them a go. You should know what technique for what behaviour, to be suprised at outcomes is wrong, you should know why your applying the technique.
Kaylum
Well-Known Member
The best one I did was loose schooling. At the end of the session he would turn into me and then follow me around. Its basically the same principle and your bonding with your horse whilst your meant to keep them moving around.