How to gate price of cardento foal please!!

[jalisco]

As heading says really- filly foal correct good paces , dark bay do nice colour, by cardento out of a 4 star select mare who's had 2 or more double clears at 3 star fei classes abroad. Very good mare.
Trying to gage a price but owner keeps asking me to bid!!!
Any ideas breeders out there- I'm in Ireland so prices pretty low for foals here :-(
Thanks

 

[Alec Swan]

If the vendor keeps asking you to bid, explain that you can't be buyer and seller, and that you will need a guide price. If he still wont, then he probably doesn't want to sell it, he's just messing you around, and if that's the case, walk.

Alec.

 

[jalisco]

Thanks Alex I agree however what do u think a foal like this would cost? So annoying really he has a load of horses for sale nearly 30 so he's desperate I think. Thanks

 

[Spring Feather]

I can't really help you as I'm in a different country but if the foal is registered with Holsteiner then over here you'd expect to pay around $15,000 for the filly.

However where the seller is at with his pricing ... he obviously has no idea on pricing so you need to do some research into finding comparable foals and see what they are advertised for/ selling for nearer your neck of the woods. I find sellers who don't know the price of their stock absolutely frustrating to deal with! In your case, I'd low ball him and see what he comes back with tbh.

 

[Jesstickle]

My friend has a Cardento horse which she bought as an unbacked 3yo. Think it was 5k but no idea on what the mare was and obviously that affects price.

 

[Eothain]

When you're asked to bid, it's sometimes because the owner doesn't want to scare you away with what (s)he thinks the foal is worth/isn't sure what to ask.
If it were my foal and out of a mare with that performance and by Cardento then recession or not, if she wasn't making €10k there's a big problem

 

[Eoghan]

Hey Jalisco
What is the breeding of the mare?
what did she win in competition?

 

[elijahasgal]

stud fee, triple it for first offer, see what his response is. go from there. If he says anything, he said bid, and bidding starts low

 

[sport horse]

Cardento stud fee is 2000 euros. Add to that the cost of vets fees working with frozen semen ? £500plus.
Cost of keeping mare for one year while in foal, cost of foaling and rearing foal, paperwork, farrier etc. Anything less than this total the breeder has lost money as we have not even accounted for the initial cost of the mare! (Why do we breed?!)
Oh and by the way my Cardento was born dark bay and now at 3 years old is greying out. You could well buy a grey so be prepared!

 

[Eoghan]

I think in this situation it is the mare that is the more important factor, cardento is a top sire and will have how many foals born across europe this year? thats why I'm interested in the breeding and preformance of the mare as that would help dictate the price of such a foal!!

 

[jalisco]

Hi Eoghan the mare is by tot de semilly xstarter from fei results 135 is the max shes jumped at 3star shows. Thanks

 

[Eoghan]

Hey jalisco,
That's a super blood line.so she's le tot de semilly who's the sire of diamant de semilly , itot du chateau etc , then goes back to the famous Starter and then being crossed with Cardendto.. Why would anyone be desperate to sell a filly like that!! talking to one of my friends in Ireland today. they said a four star select mare must have results at 1.40m or progeny jumping at that level... Was I miss informed?

 

[amage]

The 1.40 results don't have to be FEI classes though could have jumped to that level in National Grand Prixs and then jumped smaller classes abroad

 

[jalisco]

I'm not sure about that on the HSI website they class a 4 star mare that's jumped double clears at 3star level. I have an fei passported horse and he just jumped to 125 on sun shine tour. I'm not sure. However the market in Ireland is quite dire for foals and in general ( not me included) most people don't appreciate well bred foreign foals, maybe at 3 they would be more interested. I guess I'm trying to play that card as well to my advantage. Tbh if she's 10000 I couldn't justify if really. She may not even jump!! That would be a lot of money gone down the drain. After all it's a business I'm trying to build up not an expensive hobby ;-) what's peoples opinions of heading to holland, Germany or France to pick one up? One serious warmblood breeder here who really is in the know said head over there. He said u cannot buy in Ireland because they ask completely stupid money - in Europe he bought 6 foals by international stallions out of 140 plus mares for 20000. That makes more money sense to me

 

[Eoghan]

What was the mares name! I'll see if I can find anything on her for you? If you had a filly that we'll bred how would you price her?

 

[jalisco]

No its ok don't want to say !! But that's what I'm saying - in Ireland there isn't the same standard of foal here to Europe- so when they have a good one like her the price is silly IMHO. That's why I asking aswell how much people are paying in their experience for foals like her. I'm sure I would go to Europe and pay €5000 for her. Id even pay lower. I know someone who bought a foal who dam was a full sister to a horse that was top 10 in world championship in Kentucky. And he said u would be very surprised she was very reasonable. Also this man said the are more interested in colts and stallion potential rather that fillies.

 

[jalisco]

Sorry meant to say higher lol!!

 

[Alec Swan]

I wonder just how many would be brave enough to pay £5-10k for a foal, in this current climate. It isn't just the climate which is the risk either. However well bred the foal, and she may be considered to be exotic, if she's to be kept for another 4 years, and she proves to be less than ideal, and we know that no matter the breeding, there's a high percentage of rejects, then the buyer is going to be left with a very expensive failure.

I'm not sure that there's a foal born which is worth £10k. There will be 2 year olds, for certain that are worth that sort of money, because they will have been loose schooled over a jump and able to demonstrate their potential. The only potential which a foal has is in its supporting pedigree, and I suspect that that same foal, when it's two, will be worth the same money. Me? If I had £10k to spend on a youngster, I'd buy a two year old, before a foal, every time.

Jaliscoe, what would I pay for the foal that you're considering? £2-3k is the answer, and then I'd have to really want it! I'm not belittling that particular foal, but considering all foals, and it's surprising how many are sold as backed youngsters for the same money as they were bought for, but as foals.

Alec.

 

[jalisco]

I agree Alex- finally someone who think relatively speaking. The buyer would not sell for less than 5000 or any where near that even though he has a good 30 animals to get rid of and some that I have seen would not make 1000 let alone 10000! I probably think 2 yr old would be a better option- theres 2000 for sale in two wks in goresbridge - one wonders what the clearance rate will be! Once the winter sets in maybe his attitude will change - who knows. But I do agree Alex 10000 is a bit too much for just breeding alone. Unfortunately some sellers just push themselves out of the market - they are just not realistic. Sometimes people have to realise the first offer is probably the best offer too!
The foals sales last were dire too- not just because of the quality but nobody wanted them. I bought 4 lovely foals last year all straight correct lovely movers and great breeding. However I certainly didn't pay more than 2000 each. Some wanted a lot lot more and went home unsold but one has to realise that unless u are willing to keep them until they are 3 it's a huge gamble to buy a foal in the first place! I think it's just a waste of time to advertise a foal POA then to tantalise the buyer by getting them to bid! And then insulting the offef you do give!! Very frustrating indeed!

 

[Spring Feather]

I'm glad I'm a breeder over here that's all I can say lol! Registered WB foals here sell for 10k-15k. I just sold a 4 month old filly 2 weeks ago for that price. She was bought to be shown on the line as a youngster and then destined to become a broodmare. If I wasn't selling my foals for around the 10k pricetag then there wouldn't be any point in breeding as I'd never cover my costs let alone make a profit. So now I see why you guys are always saying that there's little point in breeding well bred horses, if you're only getting 2-3k for 2 or 3 year olds then whoever is breeding them is not much of a businessman and must be making huge losses.

I have some extra special foals due next spring and I've already been offered well in excess of the figure above inutero. I won't sell inutero however so will just wait until they are born and then offer them up for sale.

Jalisco if you know of foals selling for far less in Europe then seems obvious to me that you should go over there and buy one. I know a fair few good breeders in Germany and I know they do not sell there foals for as little as you think (they sell for more than I do!)

 

[jalisco]

Spring feather you live in Canada so does my uncle! He moved there to sell horses as there is a huge amateur market to sell to who have masses of money and don't seem to know what to do with it ;-) look at the prices they charge in Canada and across the border in the USA ?! A ordinary riding horses is mega bucks!! Your livery fees are huge! So it's all realities in my books! When u have the likes of Springsteen, Gates etc to sell to sure u can charge what you like! Here in Ireland we don't have such a luxury. On a serious note fair play but you are probably one of many who gets that kind of money for your foals over there so it's the norm. Not over here I'm afraid. That's the difference I guess between the mega bucks clients you have there and real horse people over here. Difference as a buyer I'm realistic and couldn't justify as Alex said to spend that on just breeding alone. I'm a actually trying to make money and make realistic investments for the future of my business ;-)) thanks

 

[Spring Feather]

Yes it's incredible the difference in sport horse prices between our countries. Over here yearlings and 2 year olds sell for not much more than they would at weaning. Once they get to 5 or 6 years old if they are out there doing well at young horse classes then they sell for megabucks. I looked at a really nice young mare yesterday (I'm always on the lookout for nice broodmares). She had similar bloodlines (although not nearly as good) as one of my broodmares and they hadn't competed her as much or as successfully as my girl and yet they were asking $70k for her. And they'll probably get it!

Why don't you approach European breeders who you know are selling the bloodlines you are looking for and ask them what their price ranges are and then once you have a few of them, you could take a trip over there and view them all. As I say though, the breeders I personally know in Germany who are breeding this quality of foals are asking more for them than I ask for mine, so maybe you're best looking for a smaller hobby breeder with just a couple of mares as they tend to not price their foals at TMV as I'm sure they don't really work out the real cost to them of producing their foals. Best of luck!

 

[Eothain]

What you have in that filly is a nice bit of what our thoroughbred friends would refer to as "black type" in the damline.
Even if she never competes and just goes breeding at 3, it's still a strong damline and the odds of producing successful competition horses from her are stacked in your favour.
If any foal isn't making 3x the stud fee plus expenses until weaning as a guide price, then you're as well as off just lining up the mares and shooting them.

It's illogical to brush aside the statistical advantage that has been proven to come from stronger damlines.
The argument that Frank Sinatra could sing, but could his brother? Just absolutely does not get a look in with me!!

 

[Alec Swan]

I'm glad I'm a breeder over here that's all I can say lol! Registered WB foals here sell for 10k-15k. I just sold a 4 month old filly 2 weeks ago for that price. She was bought to be shown on the line as a youngster and then destined to become a broodmare. If I wasn't selling my foals for around the 10k pricetag then there wouldn't be any point in breeding as I'd never cover my costs let alone make a profit. .......

We live in different worlds!!

Alec.

 

[SusieT]

well the main thing is if you don't want to pay that money to secure this foal then you may not be able to buy such a quality foal, so it's no point saying you don't want to pay it-just tell the seller what you do want to pay!

 

[richie o'Hara]

Hi everyone
Im new to this forum and think these things can be usefull when used in the correct way?
However I feel I have no choice but to give a response to this current situation as I have a four star select mare called Kalifa de La Creek who is by le tot de semilly X starter and has a filly foal by cardento, now at this stage I must say that no one has been to see this foal in the flesh so therefore cannot comment on how it moves etc!!! But seeming as Ireland is a small I presume its my foal this discussion is about. Now im not going to hide behind fake names like ie Jalisco!!
the dam in question as I have stated to "Jalisco" has won at five star international shows not just jumped two double clears at 1.35m at three star shows! and im sorry but last yr I broke my leg and dislocated my ankle in five different places last year,I was in cast for twelve weeks and told I would probably not ride again etc, in my first yr back might I add on two home bred horses who are from a 3 star select mare have had the winner of the stepping stones final and his half sister jumped in the two ruby qualifiers (1.20m 5 yr old 10,000 euro champ) double clear both days but not qualifying these are the only homebred horses of competition age , I find it very offencive that I have worked this hard and my horses are achieving results, most of my mares have preformed to a high level themselves or are from a good preformance family, so you could imagine my dissappointment at when Im trying to do things the correct way and often working from 6am to after 10pm at reading an article from someone saying my horses arent worth 1000euro!! but to state again NO ONE HAS BEEN TO SEE MY CARDENTO FILLY FOAL, and I TOLD THE PERSON NUMEROUS TIMES WHAT THE MARE HAD WON IN THE RING!

 

[richie o'Hara]

oohh and as an other not I told the person in question that I was not desperate to sell the filly!!!

 

[Eoghan]

Jalisco or what ever your name really is..... Is this true?

 

[Gore]

Ok. So completely diff story than what we were led to believe !! I'd imagine the first thing I'd do if I was interested in a foal would be to go see it. How can u tell what it's worth with out seeing it move, confirmation etc. I've seen pics & videos of animals & it's never the same. No mind trying to price it or knock the value of it. Horses aren't like used cars !! There's no book price. This is ob a very well bred foal that has enormous paddock value no mind a potential career in competition. I breed myself. Importing frozen semen from Europe , trying to use the best bloodlines available that will suit our brood mares, all that have had competition experience & well related.take into account stud fees, ( in this case e2 k),transport costs(approx e300 from Germany) vets fees e250 per frozen cycle & we know that it doesn't always work first time, then scans. Vaccinating , feeding, worming, farrier for mare for the year & then cost of same for foal until approx 6 months, now I know we all love it ( breeding horses)but if I was to sell that foal for e2 to e 3 k , well dear god, multiply that by ten mares, I wouldn't last the year at those losses !!! Interestingly I follow the auctions on the continent & it always amazes me the high prices their foals get, to the point that there r discussions going on about taking some of the better irish bred foals out there. Goresbridge is always a mixed bag, as any sale & you'll often find that certain calibre of foals never get to public auction. & before I go , I would b very hesitant to buy a two year old.at that stage it's been well tried & if of any value would b held until at least a 3 yo. Yearlings & 2 yo never sell well & always command lower prices. I wouldn't mind that filly in my paddock !!

 

[Eoghan]

Jalisco or whatever you like to call yourself!! What level have you actually competed at? How many horses have you sold in the last 12 months? The foals you investedso wisely in how many are from a direct performance family? They probably have the popular names of your local area but how many are from direct proven mother lines, who's dams/ siblings have reached international competition??