How to help spooky young horse?

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Marigold4

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My young horse (6) has been out to the same venue many, many times now. At first he was worried about the surface (sand and fibre in an indoor school) and didn't want to walk on it. Got over that although he will still stop and stare if there are distinct marks in the sand. He will not go near the spectator gallery on one side. If I take him for a schooling session, after 30 mins of inhand work, walking past at a distance, then closer and closer, he will eventually think it's no big deal. Next time we go, it's as though he's never seen it before and we have to start all over again. We've been doing dressage tests and he has to pass the gallery with only a few seconds of getting used to it. He plants, trots past at 90 degrees and is generally a tw@t about it. We come away with a mix of 7s and 4s in terms of scores. He's probably been to the venue 20 times now and is on his 8th test, with no progress at all in the spooking at the gallery. Took him to another venue for a schooling session then test. Same thing happened but this time at something imaginary on the side wall. Will he EVER be sensible and realise that it's OK to trot past scary things? I've backed 5 horses myself and not come across this issue before - usually you work on it and they get over it. It's the lack of progress that worries me - he doesn't seem to store the information that it's OK. PS I tried being firm with him and forcing the issue, but that made it worse and made me feel bad for doing it. He is genuinely scared, not being naughty. He's absolutely fine at home but nervous out hacking. PPS nothing wrong with eyesight.
 
Could you just go and hang out at the gallery? Take a lunge line and a feed maybe and just sit up there. Take a stooge with you to go up there and move a bit. Working on getting nearer is fine but I feel like he maybe needs to kind of investigate a bit in his own time when he's not doing a job. I'd try that a bit and see if it makes a difference
 
With those who are absolutely fine at home, it can be easy to think they are concentrating on you when they are not really, instead they are just generally happy and content. This has been BH, my young horse. He is generally happy, content, obliging, a bit lazy...but not the bravest.

I did his first year doing allsorts, because he was obliging and generally happy. But, I was also aware that we hadn't really got it together as a partnership as, when he saw something he did take a dislike to, his head would go up and his neck rigid and he would not DO anything, but nor would he listen and soften to me.

I would not have been able to ask him to relax, or ask him to soften, or even ask him to lower his head. I would not have been able to 'force the issue' as you say, as I was not really in control. But, still we had a fab year as he would generally stay rigid until he had checked it out, then we could continue. But still, him checking out from me is not really safe, and needed tackling in his home environment when he was relaxed rather than when he was already alert and checked out.

I knew this but got a bit stuck. His ground work was obliging but lazy, and his feet somewhat stuck. I felt a bit mean in getting tough for him being cumbersome and a bit slow, as he always did what I asked, in a fashion. I got some help, thank you @Ambers Echo for the recommendation as we had Joe Midgely come to help us. Poor BH, his lazy and unreactive domeanour was called out and he had to be light on his feet and react in a trice. That caused him to kick back somewhat, in fact, if you had been watching and not known what we were doing, it would have looked as if we were causing bad behaviour. But, it was just BH, getting his head round a new set of expectations, an extinction burst of objection as he realised that he was to bend to mum's will.

The ground work was then translated to ridden. He had to move quarters, move shoulders, move forwards, stop of a weight shift. BH was more used to plodding along in his own sweet time. It was about him believing that I was someone to be listened to, to give me the tools to be able to ask him to move his body, to relax his jaw, to lower his head, to adjust his whole way of thinking.

Yesterday, we were out hacking and had a big test. There were 2 goats with their heads out of the fence, with a lady strimming, next to a JCB that was off, but roadside. About 10 yards beyond that was a man using a petrol lawnmower followed by his neighbour pressure washing his drive, with the dog at the next house barking and the man over the road also mowing his lawn but hidden behind the hedge.

BH saw all this and, initially, as in 200yds away, head went up and solid. But, we now have the tools for me to ask him to move his attention to me, to soften his body, to respond willingly to forward and to keep his shoulders and quarters where I asked them to be.

I have the hat cam, sadly you can't hear all the machines as it is in a case, all you can hear is my delight in BH for the plan coming together.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7232767569365634330

Before Joe's help, he would have gone rigid and any extra energy I had put into it would have merely added to his stress and added to his problem.

I took a second video, this one was Friday night. This is where the exorcism of the rigidity was started. BH would struggle to move his shoulders. It took equipment to insist. He objected big. In the video, you can still see an objection, which we will continue to work on. But, there I am big haynet weighing me down, no equipment, asking him to move first quarters then shoulders. There BH is, doing it. Yes, he still objects to the shoulders with a defiant toos of the head, and this shows in his ridden work - we are working on it.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7232770275836808475

Not there yet, but this is how we are tackling a similar trait to your horse. It is improving. I think I would be proud of any horse negotiating that narrow lane. But, at the moment, the surprise pooper scooper may still surprise us at a new venue. We do now, however, have the start of the tools to remedy the situation.

I have also done desensitisation to various things, such as umbrellas, plastic bags, etc etc. That would be place specific and fine in its own way, but didn't help hugely in new situations where he obviously didn't think I could keep him safe, so he would fixate on something that he may perceive as worrysome.

Why did I leave it so long? That is a good one! I did used to train horses professionally but, when I finished, I decided I wanted to go more 'positive positive' in reinforcement, and have learned some good things that way. However, for a working horse, I think that they do also need to know to comply when they don't particularly want to. In that compliance, they can find peace and safety. Also, because BH is quite low energy and very obliging, I simply didn't bother and had a lovely year cantering on the beach, going to camps etc.

Joe has helped immeasurably. I trust him to be fair to the horse, even when he has had to up the pressure (because BH is non reactive at home, sometimes pressure had to be upped quite a bit). I trusted his methods and he has helped me to see that, by trying to stick with positive only, by trying to make it all Disney, hearts and flowers, and minties... by doing all that I had kind of thrown the baby out with the bathwater as far as my tools to help the horse were concerned.
 
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Yes! Love his busy listening ears in that video. I love how the Joe work leads to functional skills. Get their brain to direct their feet. If you haven’t got the brain then they may be fine most of the time, but when the chips are down they are liable to tune you out and make their own minds up about whether something is safe, and what to do about it x
 
Ambers Echo said:
Yes! Love his busy listening ears in that video. I love how the Joe work leads to functional skills. Get their brain to direct their feet. If you haven’t got the brain then they may be fine most of the time, but when the chips are down they are liable to tune you out and make their own minds up about whether something is safe, and what to do about it x
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See, you summed it up in far fewer words!!! 🤣

Thank you again for your reports and recommendation!

I think, because of what we are dong now, he is the reason I'm not interested in competing ATM. I want to get the basics more secure before putting us into a situation where other people tell me what to do and when. We are back out at a country park tomorrow, to go on adventures where we can keep our focus on each other. Enthralling to me, more than competitions!
 
OP I think Red’s post has lots of ideas that could help. The aim is not to desensitise but for the horse to trust you and be focused on you so they aren’t distracted by spooky stuff.

I was schooling the other day while a mechanic worked very noisily on my yo’s lorry parked next to the arena. Lottie ignored it completely. Then I got off to poo pick and left her. The next banging noise from the work sent her into orbit. Spun, ran, turned to stare, snorting, eyes on stalks. I didn’t need to desensitise her to the noises. I just needed her attention on me when we rode. Once she was on her own the lorry became an issue in a way it wasn’t under saddle. I didn’t expect her to react to the lorry after getting off. But when I analysed her reactions afterwards, it makes sense.
 
I gave up with mine who was like this. Sorry, that’s not helpful, but it was causing her and me a lot of stress. She's much happier doing things at home with no pressure, despite all of her ability. I did try lots of different things including being tougher, getting someone else stronger on her (both of which made her worse), Jason Webb (who gave me really useful tools, but ultimately I couldn’t replicate it when out competing), very softly, softly (never improved) and it was costing me a fortune and not giving either of us any pleasure.
 
Well ... this reminds me of when my children were little and were ill. All I had to do was make an appointment with the GP and put them in the car and they would get better, miraculously! Having written that despairing post earlier, this morning we did two dressage tests at same venue. There were a couple of sticky moments to do with the surface earning us a couple of 4s but SO much better. Managed to trot past the gallery in something that resembled straightness! Lots of 8s and 2 x second place with overall scores almost 70. I got up at 5, lunged him at home, arrived v early at venue, walked around, 40 mins in warm up and then 2 tests. Hurray! Progress at long last. Perhaps I just need to tire him out!
 
I had one who I could only ride in 15m of the arena at home. Actually it was this horse who got me into Warwick Schiller as conventional tools just were not working. He got there in the end and was transformed in a few months. Just took everything very slowly but he had to answer the questions he knew the answer to and I never asked him ones he could not answer and kept building through yeilding feet. I used reversing a lot to get feet moving when hacking and worked hard on getting relaxation when stressed.
 
Red-1 said:
With those who are absolutely fine at home, it can be easy to think they are concentrating on you when they are not really, instead they are just generally happy and content. This has been BH, my young horse. He is generally happy, content, obliging, a bit lazy...but not the bravest.

I did his first year doing allsorts, because he was obliging and generally happy. But, I was also aware that we hadn't really got it together as a partnership as, when he saw something he did take a dislike to, his head would go up and his neck rigid and he would not DO anything, but nor would he listen and soften to me.

I would not have been able to ask him to relax, or ask him to soften, or even ask him to lower his head. I would not have been able to 'force the issue' as you say, as I was not really in control. But, still we had a fab year as he would generally stay rigid until he had checked it out, then we could continue. But still, him checking out from me is not really safe, and needed tackling in his home environment when he was relaxed rather than when he was already alert and checked out.

I knew this but got a bit stuck. His ground work was obliging but lazy, and his feet somewhat stuck. I felt a bit mean in getting tough for him being cumbersome and a bit slow, as he always did what I asked, in a fashion. I got some help, thank you @Ambers Echo for the recommendation as we had Joe Midgely come to help us. Poor BH, his lazy and unreactive domeanour was called out and he had to be light on his feet and react in a trice. That caused him to kick back somewhat, in fact, if you had been watching and not known what we were doing, it would have looked as if we were causing bad behaviour. But, it was just BH, getting his head round a new set of expectations, an extinction burst of objection as he realised that he was to bend to mum's will.

The ground work was then translated to ridden. He had to move quarters, move shoulders, move forwards, stop of a weight shift. BH was more used to plodding along in his own sweet time. It was about him believing that I was someone to be listened to, to give me the tools to be able to ask him to move his body, to relax his jaw, to lower his head, to adjust his whole way of thinking.

Yesterday, we were out hacking and had a big test. There were 2 goats with their heads out of the fence, with a lady strimming, next to a JCB that was off, but roadside. About 10 yards beyond that was a man using a petrol lawnmower followed by his neighbour pressure washing his drive, with the dog at the next house barking and the man over the road also mowing his lawn but hidden behind the hedge.

BH saw all this and, initially, as in 200yds away, head went up and solid. But, we now have the tools for me to ask him to move his attention to me, to soften his body, to respond willingly to forward and to keep his shoulders and quarters where I asked them to be.

I have the hat cam, sadly you can't hear all the machines as it is in a case, all you can hear is my delight in BH for the plan coming together.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7232767569365634330

Before Joe's help, he would have gone rigid and any extra energy I had put into it would have merely added to his stress and added to his problem.

I took a second video, this one was Friday night. This is where the exorcism of the rigidity was started. BH would struggle to move his shoulders. It took equipment to insist. He objected big. In the video, you can still see an objection, which we will continue to work on. But, there I am big haynet weighing me down, no equipment, asking him to move first quarters then shoulders. There BH is, doing it. Yes, he still objects to the shoulders with a defiant toos of the head, and this shows in his ridden work - we are working on it.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7232770275836808475

Not there yet, but this is how we are tackling a similar trait to your horse. It is improving. I think I would be proud of any horse negotiating that narrow lane. But, at the moment, the surprise pooper scooper may still surprise us at a new venue. We do now, however, have the start of the tools to remedy the situation.

I have also done desensitisation to various things, such as umbrellas, plastic bags, etc etc. That would be place specific and fine in its own way, but didn't help hugely in new situations where he obviously didn't think I could keep him safe, so he would fixate on something that he may perceive as worrysome.

Why did I leave it so long? That is a good one! I did used to train horses professionally but, when I finished, I decided I wanted to go more 'positive positive' in reinforcement, and have learned some good things that way. However, for a working horse, I think that they do also need to know to comply when they don't particularly want to. In that compliance, they can find peace and safety. Also, because BH is quite low energy and very obliging, I simply didn't bother and had a lovely year cantering on the beach, going to camps etc.

Joe has helped immeasurably. I trust him to be fair to the horse, even when he has had to up the pressure (because BH is non reactive at home, sometimes pressure had to be upped quite a bit). I trusted his methods and he has helped me to see that, by trying to stick with positive only, by trying to make it all Disney, hearts and flowers, and minties... by doing all that I had kind of thrown the baby out with the bathwater as far as my tools to help the horse were concerned.
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Thanks for posting that. That's really interesting and thought-provoking. Your horse and mine sound similar in that they are both not quite listening to us. Mine is pretty sharp rather than lazy type though. I've had mine since he was nearly two and I'm really fond of him. I think I probably still treat him like a baby and expect too little of him. I did think of getting Michael Peace out and nearly booked but it was so expensive I bottled. I'm down south and Joe M is up north, I think?
 
Roxylola said:
Could you just go and hang out at the gallery? Take a lunge line and a feed maybe and just sit up there. Take a stooge with you to go up there and move a bit. Working on getting nearer is fine but I feel like he maybe needs to kind of investigate a bit in his own time when he's not doing a job. I'd try that a bit and see if it makes a difference
Click to expand...
I did do that for a whole hour once! I took someone with me who went in gallery, climbed on chairs, we free schooled him, took stuff out of gallery and showed it to him. Next session - he acted as though he'd never seen it before!
 
LEC said:
I had one who I could only ride in 15m of the arena at home. Actually it was this horse who got me into Warwick Schiller as conventional tools just were not working. He got there in the end and was transformed in a few months. Just took everything very slowly but he had to answer the questions he knew the answer to and I never asked him ones he could not answer and kept building through yeilding feet. I used reversing a lot to get feet moving when hacking and worked hard on getting relaxation when stressed.
Click to expand...
I'll have a look at Warwick Schiller. Thanks for this. Although yesterday he was better, I suspect we will have to start all over again once we go to a different venue!
 
Marigold4 said:
Thanks for posting that. That's really interesting and thought-provoking. Your horse and mine sound similar in that they are both not quite listening to us. Mine is pretty sharp rather than lazy type though. I've had mine since he was nearly two and I'm really fond of him. I think I probably still treat him like a baby and expect too little of him. I did think of getting Michael Peace out and nearly booked but it was so expensive I bottled. I'm down south and Joe M is up north, I think?
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He is but does clinics in different places. Highly recommend.
Marigold4 said:
I'll have a look at Warwick Schiller. Thanks for this. Although yesterday he was better, I suspect we will have to start all over again once we go to a different venue!
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I loved the Warwick Schiller videos I watched a few years back. Booked my horse onto a clinic on the basis of them and hated every moment. 3 sick horses that I know about after, it was punishing. The man in person was not the man I'd seen on the videos. Well, he was, in that a lot of it was saying what he had already said, word for word just about, on the videos. But not the fairness and compassion I believed he had.

So yes, I would watch the videos, but no, I would not subject a horse of mine to a clinic with him.
 
Red-1 said:
He is but does clinics in different places. Highly recommend.

I loved the Warwick Schiller videos I watched a few years back. Booked my horse onto a clinic on the basis of them and hated every moment. 3 sick horses that I know about after, it was punishing. The man in person was not the man I'd seen on the videos. Well, he was, in that a lot of it was saying what he had already said, word for word just about, on the videos. But not the fairness and compassion I believed he had.

So yes, I would watch the videos, but no, I would not subject a horse of mine to a clinic with him.
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I find this really interesting - I wonder if actually he realised what he was doing and this led to his slight mental breakdown and current empathy approach? I think we have seen this kind of thing before in trainers. I wanted to go and watch one of his clinics locally but covid came along so would be interesting to compare.
 
LEC said:
I find this really interesting - I wonder if actually he realised what he was doing and this led to his slight mental breakdown and current empathy approach? I think we have seen this kind of thing before in trainers. I wanted to go and watch one of his clinics locally but covid came along so would be interesting to compare.
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He was rude to me, harsh to the horses and spoke to satisfy his ego. It was awful. It would please me to think he has realised what he was doing, TBH, as the horses suffered. Physically and mentally.

I have it, third hand, that he *may* now have gone too much the other way. I won't be troubling my two horses with his gracious presence though, as I lost any trust or faith on him keeping us safe or thinking of our best interests.
 
Red-1 said:
He was rude to me, harsh to the horses and spoke to satisfy his ego. It was awful. It would please me to think he has realised what he was doing, TBH, as the horses suffered. Physically and mentally.

I have it, third hand, that he *may* now have gone too much the other way. I won't be troubling my two horses with his gracious presence though, as I lost any trust or faith on him keeping us safe or thinking of our best interests.
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I once had Richard Maxwell out to help with a young horse who was difficult to lead in from the field. He was pretty harsh with her for my liking. I felt uncomfortable throughout the session about the way she was treated. And it was a very expensive! These days I tend to read and watch videos, taking the bits I like and discarding the bits that are not for me.
 
Marigold4 said:
I'll have a look at Warwick Schiller. Thanks for this. Although yesterday he was better, I suspect we will have to start all over again once we go to a different venue!
Click to expand...

Have you ever tried her at a different venue? You never know, it might be this specific venue that causes problems for various reasons and at others she might not have issues.
 
Marigold4 said:
I once had Richard Maxwell out to help with a young horse who was difficult to lead in from the field. He was pretty harsh with her for my liking. I felt uncomfortable throughout the session about the way she was treated. And it was a very expensive! These days I tend to read and watch videos, taking the bits I like and discarding the bits that are not for me.
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It was not that he hit them. It was when he had us standing still in what was a freezing arena, then wanted them to be on a 12ft line, spinning left and right, chased with a flag for over an hour non stop. No warm-up. No queries as to the fitness of the horses.

The second day it was very hot. Spinning circles and changes of rein, none stop for ages, no water with unfit horses.

The last day, he rode one that someone was having an issue with, in a tiny pen. His back obviously hurt (Warwick Schiller's) and he could not communicate what he wanted. It went on for hours, the horse's responses getting worse and worse. The horse was in a pickle, to my eye. WS never did achieve what he wanted, the horse quit, as in quit trying, through exhaustion to my eye. It was a mess.

A pony was on the afternoon session, but on the second day they came to do more in the morning too. It was ridden and ridden... it was a lot of riding. In the heat. Energetically.

One horse on that demo got colic, the vet said through stress (as in hard work, although I dare say the lack of water didn't help). Two had leg injuries, mine was one. I quit half way in, I knew he wasn't fit enough to do what was being asked, so I quit, but was then help up as the reason he wouldn't improve being the way I wasn't prepared to do the work or some such nonsense.

I have seen a few RM demos and seen him work on private horses. Yes, he can be very direct, but I have not yet seen him fail to address the issue quickly. So yes, the horse had energetic handling, but soon saw what the release was. Once the horse got the correct answer, it all came good. Of course, I suppose he has his off days too, but at least RM is always personable and polite.

WS was bizarre. Like a caricature. This was the clinic he said I was a liar as I wore make-up. I informed him that I, in fact, don't wear make-up. Then I was a liar for dying my hair, I told him I don't. He then said I was a liar as I had a padded bra, that I was trying to make my breasts look something they weren't. Yes, I did have a padded bra, but not because I was trying to make my bust different for him! It was simply a T shirt bra, 2 for £10 from Matalan, because I work in a primary school and sticking out nipples are not appropriate in that situation, IMO. It was very personal and unnecessary.

His theory was to panic the horse to teach it to come down. So, I was sat on a set of folding steps holding my, well mannered, horse and WS came running at him, cracking a whip. The horse moved - didn't pull away or do anything rude, but did move as far away as he could without pulling me. Put it this way, I did not need to get up from the folding steps that I was sitting on, yet he said my horse was showing bad manners.

I was to try to scare the horse with a flag - so we could practice teaching him not to panic, but the horse didn't panic, he was puzzled but let the flag go right into him as he knew I wouldn't hurt him. Apparently this was the wrong sort of calm, so I had to get on my hands and knees and crawl at him, flapping the flag.

At the end, he said how much all the horses had improved. He said mine had been all over the place at the start. Erm, nope. I had been sitting on my steps, holding him in a relaxed manner. Of course, mine hadn't made as much improvement as he'd hoped because I hadn't done the work, but look at him now. Yep, a slightly bemused and tired horse, still standing still.

At that time, I wondered if it was some sort of joke, not any training I wanted me and my beautiful horse to work with, so I was there in body but we mainly stood and watched. It was, however, like the Emperor's new clothes and I wish I'd walked out after the first hour.

It hurts, when an illusion is shattered.
 
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Red-1 said:
I loved the Warwick Schiller videos I watched a few years back. Booked my horse onto a clinic on the basis of them and hated every moment. 3 sick horses that I know about after, it was punishing. The man in person was not the man I'd seen on the videos. Well, he was, in that a lot of it was saying what he had already said, word for word just about, on the videos. But not the fairness and compassion I believed he had.

So yes, I would watch the videos, but no, I would not subject a horse of mine to a clinic with him.
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When was this clinic?

What you describe sounds like 'old' WS, not his new approach.
 
stangs said:
When was this clinic?

What you describe sounds like 'old' WS, not his new approach.
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Oh, I'm sure it would be what his followers regard as 'old' WS, it was roughly 7 years ago. However, what I saw on the videos and in person didn't match so, however much the videos have changed, I would not trust that the man has as I know the videos are not necessarily what you get.

I don't doubt that his methods have changed though, he surprised a lot of people in person. I suspect that, once word had got round about the goings on in person, business would have fallen.

Not just in this country, I know a friend in America who also liked the videos, so much she arranged a clinic. Spent hours and her own £s on it, and he was rude to her. Cut her out, played with his mates. She didn't want special treatment in the clinic, just to be treated politely.

So yes, I'm sure the man had reinvented how he presents himself. I'm sure the videos are still enticing and glossy. I bet the clinics are now more soft on the horses. But no, I think he is a hard business man and I would not entrust myself or my horse to him again.

I also think, aside from the loss of trust, from what I have heard, the glossy new training has gone too much the other way for me.

I have loved my lessons with Joe Midgely. I was wary to start, in fact I told him that he would not be flagging my horse round because I have had a bad experience with that. He listened and explained why and when he uses a flag. Took it slow and gained my trust. He trains me and the horse. He has no ego in the arena, just a great ability to see where you and the horse are at and how to help. Joe seems to genuinely care about the horse but also about his ethics, and not just for the gloss of it. He 'goes big' when the horse needs it, but the release is instant and makes sense to the horse. We do the exercise and then rest. Fair. What you see is what you get.
 
GreyDot said:
Maybe sign up for a stay-away camp/training? It might just be what he needs. An expensive experiment, but if you want to continue competing, it is what I would consider.
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Thanks, good idea. He probably does need to be exposed to more hustle and bustle. He is kept at home with two others and it is all very peaceful and calm.
 
Red-1 said:
With those who are absolutely fine at home, it can be easy to think they are concentrating on you when they are not really, instead they are just generally happy and content. This has been BH, my young horse. He is generally happy, content, obliging, a bit lazy...but not the bravest.

I did his first year doing allsorts, because he was obliging and generally happy. But, I was also aware that we hadn't really got it together as a partnership as, when he saw something he did take a dislike to, his head would go up and his neck rigid and he would not DO anything, but nor would he listen and soften to me.

I would not have been able to ask him to relax, or ask him to soften, or even ask him to lower his head. I would not have been able to 'force the issue' as you say, as I was not really in control. But, still we had a fab year as he would generally stay rigid until he had checked it out, then we could continue. But still, him checking out from me is not really safe, and needed tackling in his home environment when he was relaxed rather than when he was already alert and checked out.

I knew this but got a bit stuck. His ground work was obliging but lazy, and his feet somewhat stuck. I felt a bit mean in getting tough for him being cumbersome and a bit slow, as he always did what I asked, in a fashion. I got some help, thank you @Ambers Echo for the recommendation as we had Joe Midgely come to help us. Poor BH, his lazy and unreactive domeanour was called out and he had to be light on his feet and react in a trice. That caused him to kick back somewhat, in fact, if you had been watching and not known what we were doing, it would have looked as if we were causing bad behaviour. But, it was just BH, getting his head round a new set of expectations, an extinction burst of objection as he realised that he was to bend to mum's will.

The ground work was then translated to ridden. He had to move quarters, move shoulders, move forwards, stop of a weight shift. BH was more used to plodding along in his own sweet time. It was about him believing that I was someone to be listened to, to give me the tools to be able to ask him to move his body, to relax his jaw, to lower his head, to adjust his whole way of thinking.

Yesterday, we were out hacking and had a big test. There were 2 goats with their heads out of the fence, with a lady strimming, next to a JCB that was off, but roadside. About 10 yards beyond that was a man using a petrol lawnmower followed by his neighbour pressure washing his drive, with the dog at the next house barking and the man over the road also mowing his lawn but hidden behind the hedge.

BH saw all this and, initially, as in 200yds away, head went up and solid. But, we now have the tools for me to ask him to move his attention to me, to soften his body, to respond willingly to forward and to keep his shoulders and quarters where I asked them to be.

I have the hat cam, sadly you can't hear all the machines as it is in a case, all you can hear is my delight in BH for the plan coming together.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7232767569365634330

Before Joe's help, he would have gone rigid and any extra energy I had put into it would have merely added to his stress and added to his problem.

I took a second video, this one was Friday night. This is where the exorcism of the rigidity was started. BH would struggle to move his shoulders. It took equipment to insist. He objected big. In the video, you can still see an objection, which we will continue to work on. But, there I am big haynet weighing me down, no equipment, asking him to move first quarters then shoulders. There BH is, doing it. Yes, he still objects to the shoulders with a defiant toos of the head, and this shows in his ridden work - we are working on it.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7232770275836808475

Not there yet, but this is how we are tackling a similar trait to your horse. It is improving. I think I would be proud of any horse negotiating that narrow lane. But, at the moment, the surprise pooper scooper may still surprise us at a new venue. We do now, however, have the start of the tools to remedy the situation.

I have also done desensitisation to various things, such as umbrellas, plastic bags, etc etc. That would be place specific and fine in its own way, but didn't help hugely in new situations where he obviously didn't think I could keep him safe, so he would fixate on something that he may perceive as worrysome.

Why did I leave it so long? That is a good one! I did used to train horses professionally but, when I finished, I decided I wanted to go more 'positive positive' in reinforcement, and have learned some good things that way. However, for a working horse, I think that they do also need to know to comply when they don't particularly want to. In that compliance, they can find peace and safety. Also, because BH is quite low energy and very obliging, I simply didn't bother and had a lovely year cantering on the beach, going to camps etc.

Joe has helped immeasurably. I trust him to be fair to the horse, even when he has had to up the pressure (because BH is non reactive at home, sometimes pressure had to be upped quite a bit). I trusted his methods and he has helped me to see that, by trying to stick with positive only, by trying to make it all Disney, hearts and flowers, and minties... by doing all that I had kind of thrown the baby out with the bathwater as far as my tools to help the horse were concerned.
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Wow, great work. How did you manage to keep his attention on you?
 
Captain Lad said:
Wow, great work. How did you manage to keep his attention on you?
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I thought my post was quite explanatory but in a nutshell, I would say I got tough and stopped trying to follow a new trend for everything being beautiful! It was all firm but fair. BH is doing great.

I also got the foresight to get someone who is a genius to help 🤣
 
Red-1 said:
I thought my post was quite explanatory but in a nutshell, I would say I got tough and stopped trying to follow a new trend for everything being beautiful! It was all firm but fair. BH is doing great.

I also got the foresight to get someone who is a genius to help 🤣
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Glad you are both doing well :D
 
I also have lessons with Joe Midgley with my unbacked 4 year old, and funnily enough have experienced the 'Joe Midgley' effect a couple of times recently. One when I took my horse to a local show recently and another when I was running through his exercises and we had a delivery of fencing panels on a flat bed pickup with mini crane. Both times with only minimal reminding he left the thing he wanted to look at and came back to the thing I wanted him to do. It sounds such a little thing, but it's never happened to me before. My older horse is good as gold, but if he wants to look at something I have a job getting his attention back.

I was really interested to read your description of the WS clinic @Red-1. I attended another well respected flag flapping trainer's clinic as a spectator some years ago and whilst she was nothing like WS in terms of behaviour (or rudeness) I did struggle to understand the point of some of the exercises - it was the spinning horses on the end of a line description that reminded me of that clinic.
 
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