How to ride established horse into a fence...

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wench

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Small conundrum I have encountered today, first time jumping new horse. It was only over a small x pole, bit big enough to give me a feel of what she is like.

I'd done some flatwork to start with to get warmed up, then trotted to the fence first time to get everything ok. Was a little untidy, but we got over it ok, and then went back into trot, and then into walk, and walked about halfway down the school. Came back around in walk, and then asked for trot as we were nearer the fence. Horse decided that we were going to canter to the fence, which in all fairness to horse was a nice balanced canter and nice jump at the end.

Next time around, I made sure we stayed in trot, as she can't be doing exactly as she pleases. This resulted in some head throwing around, and not the best jump in the world.

So question is, is it best to let the horse take you to the fence, assuming its the right sort of canter, or do exactly as I say?

I have heard both told to people. The horse is 13 and has had a previous career as a show jumper
 
If you didn't want the canter then it might have been better to circle away from the fence rather than letting her go over at her own pace. Personally I dislike trotting over a jump unless using trotting poles or a placing pole in front, it's harder for me to judge take off point and it makes it pretty hard for the horse to take off with both back feet together.
 
My ex eventer really really struggle to jump from trot, I can really try but he just breaks into canter at the last stride, I just don't ask him to anymore then he doesn't "get away" with the last ugly canter stride.

No big deal
 
A 13yo Showjumper will be alot more used to jumping in a balanced canter then a trot. How big did it jump before? I would personally would just keep the canter you should find that it will lengthen and shorten the canter fairly easily and being very balanced, whereas it's trot is likely to be less established than its canter (used to ride a few Showjumpers and canter was generally their best pace). So would say trust her and canter but learn how to steady her etc, will properly confuse her to trot into fences.
 
I think jumping from trot is an essential skill for event horses and a useful exercise for jumpers but many sj'ers don't trot to fences, ever. It's quite likely she's only ever trotted a few Xs and then straight into canter, which is pretty much what she told you.

If she is established, ridable and confident, frankly, I wouldn't mess too much with then system. I like to teach younger horses very systematically and tick all the boxes but jumping can be a bit individual and I recognise with an older horse, especially if it's doing the job, it can be a case of going along to get along. Sometimes attempting radical changes with a horse with a successful system can cause more harm than good.
 
TarrSteps said:
I think jumping from trot is an essential skill for event horses and a useful exercise for jumpers but many sj'ers don't trot to fences, ever. It's quite likely she's only ever trotted a few Xs and then straight into canter, which is pretty much what she told you.

If she is established, ridable and confident, frankly, I wouldn't mess too much with then system. I like to teach younger horses very systematically and tick all the boxes but jumping can be a bit individual and I recognise with an older horse, especially if it's doing the job, it can be a case of going along to get along. Sometimes attempting radical changes with a horse with a successful system can cause more harm than good.
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sorry to hijack just wondered what your system is teaching youngster to jump how much trotting into/ how high/ spreads?
 
small said:
sorry to hijack just wondered what your system is teaching youngster to jump how much trotting into/ how high/ spreads?
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It's not really as simple as a few lines - there are books written on the subject!

I come from a very systematic background but not necessarily geared only to show jumpers. So all
the usual things - starting with poles, small grids, course work with fillers etc, bigger/more complicated grids, more involved coursework and so on. I love Anthony Paalman's book, Chris Bartle's is great, too, but most systems are reasonably similar. I, obviously, am going to favour a more North American approach, which is probably closer to the French system than the English one. I probably do more trotting into jumps, coming from an eventing background and then making Eq horses, than people here do who are more likely are more likely to do more early jumping at clear rounds etc. Everyone ends up more or less in the same place these days though.

As to heights etc, that depends completely on the horse and rider. Someone very experienced who regularly jumps big classes will have talented youngsters jumping 1.10 very quickly, for other combinations that might be completely unattainable. I could tell you to start trotting over 70 cm Xs, which would be fine advice if you have a 16hh sport type, but over facing for a 14hh cob!

Sorry, I know you want 'on x day do y exercise at z height' but that's not really how a system works. It's more about progressive, incremental gains and making sure every horse, within reason, ends up with the essential skills. This might mean a horse has to spend more time in one area but breezes through another. It also means a very skilled rider/trainer will progress horses more quickly as they will need fewer reps.

That said, lots of horses learn to be competent without necessarily ticking every box. I had a good jumping horse as a kid that didn't 'do' grids so we didn't do them. I've had a few that, for reasons related to, I think, conformation, struggled to trot small fences so they got a pass. So long a4 things are progressing/going well, you can be a bit flexible. The danger of just skipping stuff on the way though is sometimes, especially if you're not very experienced, you don't know what is important until later and having holes in the horse's education can make it harder to solve problems when they do come up.
 
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Thanks was just interested as I have a horse who was taught using trotting poles into grids , which really seemed to make him a bit over careful. Am starting another pony now and wondered best approach. Older one did be up to 100 and some bs but never took me into a fence ; but is v clever Xc don't know if that's just how he is or how I taught him! want to avoid making same mistakes with this pony. I've got bartle book and some others some sj books say never trot in but I like to as they are more balanced that way. Thanks for reply anyway.
 
small said:
Thanks was just interested as I have a horse who was taught using trotting poles into grids , which really seemed to make him a bit over careful. Am starting another pony now and wondered best approach. Older one did be up to 100 and some bs but never took me into a fence ; but is v clever Xc don't know if that's just how he is or how I taught him! want to avoid making same mistakes with this pony. I've got bartle book and some others some sj books say never trot in but I like to as they are more balanced that way. Thanks for reply anyway.
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Tbh, that sounds like 'just him'. I haven't found that using grids as part of a well rounded program makes horses wimps! :) The new horse is a different animal and will need different things from you. It's POSSIBLE the older horse could have benefitted from more boldness training but also highly possible it's just his nature to be careful, in which case careful, progressive work early on may have produced a better result than speeding things up, giving him an early fright and putting him off completely.

There are lots of successful systems. Optimising them depends on knowing why you are doing what you're doing, what you hope to achieve and assessing how the individual is responding.

I will say some pros skip steps because they can. People who jump a lot develop a good eye and don't have to teach their horses to think for themselves as much. But this can be a problem if things don't progress as anticipated. I've had more than one horse started by people who 'don't believe' in poles or slow work, which was okay until the horse started to rush or stop. Then the exercises that might have helped were infinitely more difficult because the horse was stressed about the new task as well as the old job! That's reason alone to tick that box in my book!

Ditto going to other riders. The more a horse knows the easier that is. The OP's horse is a good example. It probably doesn't 'matter' if she doesn't know how to trot a fence but having that skill in her bag would have made THIS week easier on both of them.

Also, work over raised poles etc can be very useful physiotherapy. Again, much easier to employ if the horse is relaxed and educated about it early.

Some horses learn regardless - I've seen hunters that 'learned' to trot into trappy fences without being 'taught'. In which case, great, tick the box and move on. But that's no reason not to help another horse learn the skill. Keep in mind learning can take a minute, too. If a horse does something well naturally, give it a pat, be happy and move on.
 
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Finally chance to reply!

I would describe my horse as "sticky" into the first fence, hence the trotting. Cantering into a fence obviously increases the risk of a stop or run out if I haven't quite got it right.

I obviously however don't want the horse to learn that she can just canter away when she feels like it... I'm guessing the best compromise in this situation would be to ask the horse to canter at the fence, as she is obviously happier with this, but she has to learn to canter when I ask her, not when she feels like it?
 
I think that by walking round the corner and then pushing her own you are creating a 'firing' effect, even if that wasn't your intention. I think it is potentially worth really getting a good trot, with her into the contact and forwards (not on the bit necessarily) and working on that and then introducing the fence as a speed bump rather than a big "look at the jump, go go go!!" thing.
 
Lolo said:
I think that by walking round the corner and then pushing her own you are creating a 'firing' effect, even if that wasn't your intention. I think it is potentially worth really getting a good trot, with her into the contact and forwards (not on the bit necessarily) and working on that and then introducing the fence as a speed bump rather than a big "look at the jump, go go go!!" thing.
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Excellent advice. Whatever pace you carry around the corner is what you want to stay with, allowing for adjustments/corrections. Allowing/asking for a gait change after the start of the turn is actually a mild form of rushing and one of those things that seems an okay idea at the time but can cause problems later. I don't mind if a horse I'm pressing towards something like a drop or a skinny takes a few quick steps initially out of anxiety but even that, I'd expect to improve.

There are horses that move up the last few strides regardless as that is how they've been taught and there are many more that do it out of anxiety.
 
First time I walked around the corner with plenty of straight so had enough space to get a straight line/enough trot. Horse also has a bad habit of cutting corners, so wanted to make sure approach was as good as I could get it first time round.

After that, we canter, trotted and walked in a straight line after the jump. Walked calmly around half the school, then picked up trot. I turned into "straight" at the jump, she then started cantering
 
wench said:
I obviously however don't want the horse to learn that she can just canter away when she feels like it... I'm guessing the best compromise in this situation would be to ask the horse to canter at the fence, as she is obviously happier with this, but she has to learn to canter when I ask her, not when she feels like it?
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From many years experience as an instructor I would politely warn that this attitude could well lead you down a slippery slope to creating a sticky jumper.

As a rider, your job is to get the horse to a fence with all the tools he needs to jump it, eg a balanced rider, in a suitable pace, with enough impulsion, and with a suitable approach.
The horses job is to jump it.

If your horse (particularly an established jumper) slips into a canter on the approach, in order to be able to jump it more easily, I do not see that as being a problem.
It's more natural to jump out if a canter, and easier for the horse. Interfering on the approach and trying to force the horse to trot will just turn it into a hooky jumper.

Think of it from the horses point of view. Your way (trotting) didnt work. So the horse reverted to his way (cantering).

I wouldn't think of this as 'naughty' or a big deal.
 
Lolo said:
I think that by walking round the corner and then pushing her own you are creating a 'firing' effect, even if that wasn't your intention. I think it is potentially worth really getting a good trot, with her into the contact and forwards (not on the bit necessarily) and working on that and then introducing the fence as a speed bump rather than a big "look at the jump, go go go!!" thing.
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Excellent advice.
Whatever pace you come to a jump in, it needs to have been established before the corner into the fence, or you indeed will create to firing effect.
 
I think we've all voted - so long as she's ridable, just go with the flow and let her canter. :) But plan for it.

Jumping is a bit different than basic flat work as you really do have to have the horse on side and that can mean compromises. You do the schooling to prepare for the jumping but that doesn't mean you do everything exactly the same way. That's true of most sports - training and drills are prep but only part of the picture on game day.
 
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