How to tick off a horsey neighbor...(long, but any help appreciated)

PucciNPoni

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I have a friend in Wales who has her own wee yard just for her own four horses. It's like 6 or 7 acres and it's always had horses on it for like 40 years. Anyhow, 30 years ago they built an arena, and from what I understand, at that time planning permission was not required for the arena. It was never a concern to anyone for decades. They recently brought in some temporary stables (ie not concreted in and can be moved). They are more that field shelters but definitely movable. Recently they added a hardcore hardstanding.

Recently my friend has been contacted by the council to say that a query re the arena (but not the shelters) and the hardstanding have come in to question as to whether they had planning permission for them. HUH?

So now she's got to prove that the arena has been there for all this time etc. There is a questionaire of something like 20 (rather funny) questions about stuff like

"the made and model of animals on the propery"
"what do you do with the animals on the property"
"what do you use the arena for"
"what are the contents of the sheds"

So my friend is currently burying them with 16 generation pedigrees of each of her horses, photos from thirty years ago of every horse she's every had there, photos of the fields being used, being topped, the school being harrowed, the history of every horse she's ever had there, their show records with dates and photos of rosettes (chuckle). She's going to say that in the arena she sometimes does shoulder in, but sometimes is more like levade, and that's why she needs an arena....with photos....and contents of the shed will be 57 pages of itemised inventory down to the last hoofpick, brush, shovel, bucket and piece of baling twine.

Apparently there was also a complaint over the use of WHITE electrical tape for dividing one of her very large paddocks. Again, EH??? So now she's thinking that she should put in split rail and paint it with hi-vis reflective hot pink paint. But she was thinking that before she does this she might invite the local hunt to ride thru her paddocks one weekend....

She thinks that the planning person who's querying this suspects that she's opening a riding school as she on occasion has friends come on their horses in their lorries to use her school, free of charge. This has happened twice in the past 6 months. Another friend came on a different occasion, stayed at her house and brought their two horses and used the stables for a week.

Has anyone else experieced something like this? How did you handle it? And any other naughty ideas (for burying the planning peeps in paperwork)???

hot coco if you got this far!
 

china

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say that the arena is a turnout paddock for a severley lamanitic horse. thats how my friends got round it and they left them alone, the stables will be fine untill you put lights etc in them then they are classed as a fixed structure and need planning. my old livery had many run ins with council so i learnt a fair bit =D
 

Pedantic

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I like the way she is giving them loads of paperwork
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, sounds like some jobsworthy has far too much time on their hands to come out with this sort of crap.
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obviously got nothing better to do.
mad.gif
 

KitKat_89

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no more suggestions im afraid, but i did lol at the image of this unfortunate planning officer person buried at their own desk....
laugh.gif
 

PucciNPoni

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Actually, my friend and I had a better laugh - the one of some planning guy going out with his suit and wellies and trodging across a field with a rather lively stallion nipping at his heels.... tee hee
 

tickety_boo

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"the stables will be fine untill you put lights etc in them then they are classed as a fixed structure and need planning."

Not at all! Lights on mobile stables can be connected individually to the mains using removable linking structures between each stable. As long as the stables can be moved and the planners can see that each lighting link between each stable can be 'unlinked', the planners are happy. This makes the lighting just as 'temporary' as the temporary stables (even though the two will no doubt be permanent - it's just a way of getting through the red tape successfully).
 

PucciNPoni

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Thanks for the links and ideas guys. To be honest, if we didn't find this so laughable I think she'd be stressed about it. But we've been on the phone having a chuckle about how many times she can cite Animal Welfare Bill and say that the hardstanding is important because of blah blah blah and it says in the AWB in paragraph such n such ....and for laminitics and mud fever. Oh and one horse has sweet itch, so the sheds are there to store his many rugs and blah blah blah AWB this, AWB that....

My friend has farrrrr too much time on her hands so is scarily enjoying the challenge. But if the lawful development thing flies in Wales, I'm sure she'll be giving that one a go!
 

Kenzo

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[ QUOTE ]
no more suggestions im afraid, but i did lol at the image of this unfortunate planning officer person buried at their own desk....
laugh.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

ditto
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Hope it all works out ok for your friend, honestly have they nothing better to do with there time, obviously not, therefore swap em in paper work!!!!
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CBFan

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Maybe one of her horses is simply a 'lawnmower' and she can send samples of what goes in one end an how it comes out the other, obviously giving a detailed account of the equine digestive system??!!!

But seriously... sounds like someone is s**t stiring - maybe the above would be more appropriately sent to them so that they actually have some to stir!!

It's truely laughable!
 

rowan

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Had to laugh at this just the sort of thing I would of done till I met my ex OH. He worked in the planning department and it gave him great pleasure finding every little thing you could be picked up on if you tried to be clever with the planning department,
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reason he is now my ex the miserable git
 

PucciNPoni

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Oooh, i REALLY like that idea!

"See exhibit G22, a sample of equine droppings which are environmentally sound and frequently used for fertilising rose gardens...."

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dieseldog

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I personally would be very careful - too much info could be used against your friend. Do not tell them anything you don't need to.
 

itsme123

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I was thinking this.Also being sarcastic with the council isnt the way foward and will just make things harder, perhaps not for your friend but maybe for another horse owner. Why doesnt she just do as they ask?
 

PucciNPoni

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Well....she actually rang them and asked them to clarify the questions, and the guy confirmed that yes, indeed, he DID want to know all the contents of her sheds (for example). So I believe she IS giving them all the information they wanted...she's just maybe being too accomodating. The humor of it (to me, anyway) is that there is someone out there asking for Make and Model of animals as if they are machines....and wanting to know what one does with an arena. THe SAD bit of it to ME is complaining about things like arenas that have been in place for thirty years - and complaining about white electrical fence tape etc - so if that is happening to HER, are YOU next?

Her fields and stables are neat, tidy and well managed. Is it, perhaps, that it LOOKS professional and that's what's bothering the neighbors? Would they be happier if the horses were thin, the place overgrown with ragwort, the fencing falling down (and horses escaping down an A road?)
 

fatpiggy

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Take the stable doors off and put metal tubular barriers in front - they are then counted as calf pens and you don't need permission for them!
 

PeterNatt

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Her problem is that recently they have installed some new buildings. Planning departments have different views on mobile field shelters. Some don't worry and others state that planning permssion is required. Unfortunately people assume that they can simply be put up but this is not the case.
I would suspect that a neighbour or local resident has complained to enforcement and now they are obliged to investigate. This will open up a a can of worms I am afraid.
 

PennyJ

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This sounds alarming actually, be very careful. This sounds like enforcement rather than planning. Is it the council or is she in a National Park, and therefore has the National Park planning Authority trying to come down on her like a ton of bricks?

Change the white tape for green for starters, its all to do with unobtrusive fencing. Frankly they are trying it on, we had all this crap down in the New Forest from our National Park - we saw them off though - and whilst not perfect, its much better now.


I would also suspect that one of her neighbours has complained to them, they are obliged to investigate complaints, but usually don't have the manpower to go out looking for this sort of thing themselves.

She should seriously consider getting in a planning consultant, I don't like the sound of this at all.
 

PucciNPoni

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I find it really bizarre that after 40+ years of keeping horses on land, and prior to that the property was used to graze cattle and sheep (thus agricultural!), that someone can move in to a neighboring cottage and say they don't like the look of her white tape! And don't like the fact that she's got horses and shelters? If the mobile shelters are a problem, then I'm sure she will deal with it accordingly. HOwever that is NOT what the query from the planning officer is about. It's about the hardstanding and arena, which has been there for ages! So unless someone says she has to move her horses she surely has an obligation under the AWB to provide a) shelter b) a safe environment for the horses to move around -- a starvie if required and grazing as necessary.

There was even a qeustion about who OWNS the property which the deeds are in her husbands name. But then the PO wanted to know if he owned any of the horses. She said yes, he owns one. And she said she owns the rest. They kind of didn't care about the one that "he" owns but seemed more to want to know about the ones that SHE owns.

I really think that someone is trying to fill his boots as he's got nothing better to do.

She is getting a planning consultant and doing her homework. I believe she is giving them everything they are asking for (the overboard bit may be scrapped anyway, but she's having fun compiling it...).
 

Its Not Magic

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This is how I see it.



Someone has obviously reported your friend to the planning office, this could be a neighbour, country walkers or maybe someone your friend may have upset. Once the planning office receives a complaint, they are as other members have said, obliged to look into it. Sometimes, they are too busy and shelve it. It may then be forgotten or overlooked, but if another complaint arrives, they will most certainly look into it.



They ask the 'make and model' of the animals and what they are used for, for a reason (remember much paperwork is merely templates and many office assistants unless familiar with horses will not alter the templates) The reason being is, if your horses are Suffolk Punches, they are classed as agricultural animals, therefore planning laws are different and one can then have extra barns, sheds etc to house equipment for them. If not then they are classed as private pleasure.



Agricultural land may also has its own permitted development rights. This land may once have been agricultural, but once planning for pony grazing is granted, it ceases to be so, therefore removing stable doors and replacing with grids, simply would not apply as you have no livestock such as calves/sheep etc and if you have, you should not under defra rules, as there are strict rules & regs regarding the keeping of livestock.



They are asking who the animals belong to, as planning was probably granted for 'private personal use and not commercial. I would be careful with regard to stating friends use either or both the stables and arena at times, they may consider the yard is being run as a business, all government bodies now share information, so the I R could fall on your friends shoulders.



With regard to the sheds/field shelters. One must ask planning permission for the erection of any building, currently with the exception of field shelters. Which have to be movable and if you upset the planning department, they may well be this to the test and ask you to prove that they do move. Planners are now closing the loop hole on field shelters, so any one that needs them and can afford them, get them sooner than later, as soon planning will be required for them also. (After all we must fill their coffers)



Contents in the sheds, have to be related to horses, such as fodder, hay, rugs and tack. Toppers, mowers, tractors, quad, poo pickers and other machinery will not be taken into account, as it is consider agricultural and the amount of land you have does not warrant it. (We horsey folk are made of money and have to pay contractors to top our paddocks.)



As for the arena, if it has been in place over 10 years, there is nothing they can do about it, but they will ask your friend to prove when it was put in. It she cannot, then one could scream starvation paddock or winter turn out paddock to save pouching the other paddocks, that will wash.



As for the lawful development certificate, I believe this is only obtainable after 10 years. (but I may be wrong on this point, Wales may be different) The four year rule applies to erection, once it has been in situ and in full sight for four years or more, providing you can prove this, it stays.



Yes planning permission is required for any hard standing even hardcore (unfortunately you can own what you like, but you are no longer 'king of your castle' you now have to ask permission for almost everything!)



And lastly, do not aggravate the planners, they have so many powers and may come after your friend in spite. Who wants to be looking over their shoulder for any length of time?



I hope this helps.
 

*hic*

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To quote your sig "It's not Magic" this revenge would be served very cold. You have dredged up a post that's just on a year old.
 

MrsMozart

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I'm wondering what happened now as well!

I wonder if the OP will give us an update :D


It all makes interesting reading as once (when!) our house sells, we're orfff to a a place with land. I'm starting to think it would be easier to get somewhere with everything already done, though we had wanted somewhere where we could put in the arena, stables, etc. etc. etc.
 

Honey08

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However old, its interesting advice from Its Not Magic.

Mrs M its not as easy as you think to get a stable yard exactly as you want - we have 20 acres and 4 horses, and have had ponies on the land when I was a child (parent's land). Obviously my big horses won't fit in the tiny stables in the old stone building - low beams etc, and so we put in for planning for 6 stables. Didn't get it, got two! Argued long and hard - got four! No tackroom, no hayshed, no 16x12, just 12x12! Haven't gone for the arena yet - saving that fun for later! We have since put up two more mobile stables - one of which has been moved 100yds this year after two years in the winter paddock - bloomin hard to move, even with skids on! Council hasn't even noticed the new stables, in fact has never been near since assessing the site and saying no!
 

DipseyDeb

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We had something (sort of) similar with a conservatory on a house that we were selling (conservatory was there when we bought it) If the thing has been erected for more than 10 (or is it 20) years, they can do nothing about it......:)
 

Slightly Foxed

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Good luck Mrs M. Eleven years ago I was given planning permission for two stables and a tackroom, I had requested six stables, a haybarn and a feed room; yet they gave me pp for a huuuge amount of hard standing, I don't know what they thought I was going to do with it!

I now have my six stables, a feedroom and a haybarn. No-one has been near the place in 11 years.

I'm rather glad I officially have only two stables and a tackroom as this is what I have to pay non-domestic rates on.
 

somethingorother

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This has been an interesting post to read, however old it is. I'm sure i saw something on tv once about a bloke who built a sort of mini castle which he couldnt get planning permission for, so he hid it behind tonnes of straw bales for over 4 years (even whilst building it the straw bales hid it). He thought he could get away with it then as he kept stuff to prove it had been there for over 4 years. Can't remember if it worked or not but it was fun to watch :D
 
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