Hunting is in a spot of bother

Koweyka

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I remember Sandstone saying once when pushed that they didn’t agree with violence, but at no point do I remember you doing so, please point me to your post if you have.
I am quite unashamedly pro-hunt, but I am also against illegal behaviour. Some hunts do claim to trail hunt when they aren’t but many more are actually hunting a trail.
But like all sabs you don’t want to know because that inconvenient truth would get in the way of your attempt at some moral high ground when in fact you enjoy the provocation and fear that you perpetuate, through your illegal behaviour.
Hunt monitors are perfectly acceptable and I would welcome them but not sabs

I am also hunt monitor, I have been for many years. I just don’t put up with threats and lies and untruths or the killing or attempted killing of animals. I have never been arrested, never had so much as a caution, but what I do know is I have saved many many many lives and never been involved in taking one, can you make the same claim Freddie Pro Hunt, but you can’t remember what happened on Tuesday again post number 1,759 so I don’t expect a truthful answer.
 

Tiddlypom

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I remember Sandstone saying once when pushed that they didn’t agree with violence, but at no point do I remember you doing so, please point me to your post if you have.
I am quite unashamedly pro-hunt, but I am also against illegal behaviour. Some hunts do claim to trail hunt when they aren’t but many more are actually hunting a trail.
But like all sabs you don’t want to know because that inconvenient truth would get in the way of your attempt at some moral high ground when in fact you enjoy the provocation and fear that you perpetuate, through your illegal behaviour.
Hunt monitors are perfectly acceptable and I would welcome them but not sabs
Looking back to a post of yours from 3 days ago.
If this happened then this is disgusting behaviour, would you equally condemn the sabs who ganged up and assaulted one of the field who left early leaving him needing surgery to reconstruct his jaw ?
And the reply.
No if’s about it, it happened. She was completely unhinged.
I would condemn all violence, there is no need for it on any side.
 
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Sandstone1

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Everyone who is in an area which is being hunted has hunting imposed upon them whether they like it or not.

You must have forgotten @Sandstone that trail hunting is legal. Why should people stop carrying out a legal activity because other people don't like it? This is not a fascist regime. We are not talking about being allowed to or wanting to hunt illegally remember. This is about the mess that trail hunting is in. Not a single person has said that illegal hunting should be allowed. Every single poster in favour of trail hunting has recognised the impact of illegal hunting, every single one. I think every pro-trail hunting poster has also said that the MFHA need a complete overhaul; there is very little support for the management of hunting here. I think you would like to think otherwise though as then you could take out your frustration and ire on people on an internet forum. It beats me as to why but we are all different...[/QUOTE]

Something you seem to have forgotten about are the webinars detailing in great depth how to make fox hunting look like trail hunting. Have you seen the videos of hunts killing? Is it any surprise that you are not believed? You say I want to take out my ire on a internet forum but you do not know why? You are doing exactly that are you not? You quote endless reports, you always have to have the last word, you have even brought in domestic cats in to it and try to say hunting is ok because cats kill birds. We will never ever agree on this matter.
 

Fred66

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I am also hunt monitor, I have been for many years. I just don’t put up with threats and lies and untruths or the killing or attempted killing of animals. I have never been arrested, never had so much as a caution, but what I do know is I have saved many many many lives and never been involved in taking one, can you make the same claim Freddie Pro Hunt, but you can’t remember what happened on Tuesday again post number 1,759 so I don’t expect a truthful answer.
Thank you for pointing me to a post where you did condemn violence, my apologies for not remembering it, it was approx 700 posts ago so forgive me for not remembering every single one.
 

palo1

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I often wonder if the huntsman of any of the “legal packs” discussed on here attended the online webinars and if any the posters from these “legal packs” are brave enough to admit it if they were, be a massive coincidence if they all say no, given how many did attend ….
I do know of someone in attendance. They were astounded by the content and totally wrongfooted by it. I don't know more than that about webinar attendance as I don't actually know the person who attended. I don't think our huntsman would have attended but I haven't asked him; his opinion of the MFHA is already known to me. Having met MH on more than one occasion, at least once in the hunting field, I was equally astounded as nothing I have heard of the man, or seen in person would suggest that he would encourage illegal hunting. However he has been convicted of that crime.
 

Koweyka

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I do know of someone in attendance. They were astounded by the content and totally wrongfooted by it. I don't know more than that about webinar attendance as I don't actually know the person who attended. I don't think our huntsman would have attended but I haven't asked him; his opinion of the MFHA is already known to me. Having met MH on more than one occasion, at least once in the hunting field, I was equally astounded as nothing I have heard of the man, or seen in person would suggest that he would encourage illegal hunting. However he has been convicted of that crime.
It wasn’t just him, several others should have been prosecuted for their part in it.
 

Koweyka

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I have only met MH and do not know the person who attended the webinars. I can only speak as I find but I am not expecting you to take seriously or believe anything I post tbh.
Unfortunately for me I have met several of the other people and I am not surprised by anything I saw.
 

suestowford

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The footage of the Warwickshire Hunt hounds killing a deer is really bad. I would not be surprised if they get done for this, but it probably won't be under the Hunting Act. They may get what the Western Hunt did, when their hounds killed someone's pet cat. The master of that hunt was found guilty of having more than one dog dangerously out of control.
If hounds kill an animal, either they are doing so because no-one is in control of them (an offence) or because they are being encouraged to do so (also an offence).
 

Nancykitt

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If hounds kill an animal, either they are doing so because no-one is in control of them (an offence) or because they are being encouraged to do so (also an offence).
I have always acknowledged the shortcomings with the Hunting Act but I feel that it must now come down to this.
The notion of 'accidental kills' is causing a lot of problems here.

I've been disgusted with the attitude of some sabs; I remember them commenting on a facebook post once about a rider who had died and the comments were full of laughing emojis, people celebrating and others saying she didn't die horribly enough. Sorry, but however strong anyone's feelings are, this is not a good attitude IMO.

I've also been disgusted with the attitude of some hunt people I've encountered IRL who have shown blatant disregard for the law. They regard the kill as 'their right' and have taken the attitude that 'the law is an ass and therefore I have the right to ignore it.' I also remember one saying that she loved the Boxing Day meet because 'winding up the sabs is part of our sport!'

Surely those who ride with trail hunts will have a good idea of whether the hunts they subscribe to have been involved in illegal hunting? There was a lot of talk amongst people I hunted with about the 'bad' hunts in the area and I wouldn't have ridden with any of them even if I was given a free ticket.
The hunts need members & subscribers, if everyone distanced themselves from those carrying out illegal hunting - AND condemned it strongly in the public arena - this might not solve the problem but it would be a step in the right direction.
At the same time, some sabs need to re-think their tactics too; personally I feel that hunt monitoring is the way forward.

There are so many things about hunting (bloodhounds & draghounds) that I loved. Literally, some of the best days of my life. None of those days involved killing an animal.
 

Indy

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I think that is a really silly answer - I have never suggested that and have posted just a bit earlier about how that kind of incident may be dealt with under the trespass laws. Not actually interested in Jesus btw!!
We didn't find it silly at the time, they cost us thousands of pounds during a year the farm was running at at a loss. We did report it to the police, who didn't bother turning up.
 

moosea

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I have just had to come back to this @ycbm. You haven't at all taken on board the impact of culture on a community and how difficult it is in practical terms to get rid of cultural activities, values and behaviours. Whilst you might think it easy, history absolutely proves it to be not so!! The fox has been genuinely 'special' in British culture with much song, poetry, art, music and ritual -including hunting around that animal. That isn't actually easily dismantled in a trice, especially not where there are communities that still want to refer to those things in their life.
Is this acceptable... Becuse I'm sure the statement applies to dog fighting as much as it does to hunting

You haven't at all taken on board the impact of culture on a community and how difficult it is in practical terms to get rid of cultural activities, values and behaviours. Whilst you might think it easy, history absolutely proves it to be not so!! The BULLTERRIER has been genuinely 'special' in British culture with much song, poetry, art, music and ritual -including FIGHTING around that animal. That isn't actually easily dismantled in a trice, especially not where there are communities that still want to refer to those things in their life.

There used to be a large part of society who thought dog fighting was a community activity. There were many livleyhoods dependent on dog fighting. It was a cultural activity. Do you think dog figting should be legal because of the cultural impact of it being illegal? If not why not?




I think it is immoral and illegal for a group of people to threaten and intimidate others in an attempt to force them to bend to their view. Especially when trespassing which is illegal once it is pointed out to them and keeping their faces masked.
Do you think this is acceptable?
Not sure if you are refering to sabs or hunts here as both are guilty of the above. Could you clarify please
 

mariew

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Stuffed up some editing. Sorry!

Rather than dog fighting, I think a similar comparison would be bull fighting. It is very culturally significant in Spain and Portugal and has resisted many attempts to shut it down. In Portugal horses are still used in bull fights, but they aren't used any more in Spain.
Actually I think bull fighting is far more horrific. They take forever to kill the bull, I think maybe 3 swords? Can't remember exactly.
 

stangs

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Rather than dog fighting, I think a similar comparison would be bull fighting. It is very culturally significant in Spain and Portugal and has resisted many attempts to shut it down. In Portugal horses are still used in bull fights, but they aren't used any more in Spain.
But bulls are still being used, and they're the equivalent of the fox in this scenario.
 

ycbm

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Rather than dog fighting, I think a similar comparison would be bull fighting. It is very culturally significant in Spain and Portugal and has resisted many attempts to shut it down. In Portugal horses are still used in bull fights, but they aren't used any more in Spain.
Bullfighting is extremely culturally significant in Catalonia. So much so that a law banning it activated in 2012 was later overturned by the Spanish Courts. In spite of that, according to Wikipedia, there have been no bullfights in Catalonia.

If Catalans can stop bullfighting even if it's a legally protected right, why can't UK fox hunters abide by the spirit of the law? And how can anyone defend them on any grounds for not abiding by the spirit of the law?
.
 

SilverLinings

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I have been reading this thread for a while now, and am pleasantly surprised in the days of SM being used to say (and threaten) horrible things that on the whole it is still remaining a (fairly) civil discussion, despite the fact that both 'sides' clearly feel very strongly. I am glad that posters on HHO so far have retained some respect for the feelings and opinions of others.

Like several other people on the thread my opinions have changed over the years. I hunted pre-ban and for a couple of years post-ban when I was a teenager and in my 20s. I stopped because I grew old enough to develop my own feelings and opinions, and realised that I had only previously agreed with hunting because my parents and social circle was very strongly pro(fox)-hunting. At that time the local hunt was still clearly hunting fox (post-ban) so I no longer took part.

In the area I live in now there are four foxhound packs that I could hunt with, but ALL of them hunt illegally (not trail hunting). It is openly known- and visible- in the (very rural) area. The vast majority of the locals are vocally anti-hunt, mainly due to the arrogant attitude that they can break the law, and in doing so trespass and cause damage to fences/crops/stock/etc, but also for welfare reasons for many of them. There are many signs on footpaths, bridle paths and gateways stating in no uncertain (and often very angry) terms that the hunt is not permitted on the land, and that the Police will be informed if they trespass.

Despite this widespread anti-hunt feeling, quite a few people I have spoken to- in particular the older generation for whom foxhunting was legal for most of their lives- say they miss the 'old' days when the hunts behaved, and say they would welcome trail hunting. They miss the tradition, the community spirit and the social side which they won't be a part of as long as the local pack is illegal. I have not spoken to anyone who would like trail hunting to be banned, even though they can't stand the local hunts.

In my opinion the local hunts (and any other illegal hunts) are very stupid. They don't seem to care how widely they are hated, and can't see that this arrogant, insular shortsightedness will be their downfall. If they all switched to trail hunting now (and did it properly) then they would be able to regain the support of the community, but at this rate no one except themselves will care if/when all hunting is banned.

I would like to trail hunt regularly, and would be sad if/when it is banned due to the current problems. I understand what Palo says about the loss of tradition and culture, but this could partly be avoided in the long-term if all hunts started behaving legally. I don't understand why (illegal) hunts are willing to risk their entire way of life by not changing to work within the law.

As others have said, I think the only way for legal trail hunting to survive is for the MFHA to condemn ALL illegal hunting, strongly sanction any 'accidental' kills (e.g. any more than X number of accidental kills during the life of the hunt and they will be de-registered and unable to obtain insurance), and invite hunt monitors to attend.

The hunt monitors and sabs would have to be willing to attend and behave civilly, and willing to honestly publicise that packs are behaving legally (i.e. no fox or other animals being killed). As Palo has said that hounds can and should be trained (and controlled) not to riot onto livestock/wildlife/pets, then this shouldn't be a problem if hunts are prepared to stop trying to hunt fox.

I am aware that there are already many hunts legally trail hunting, and have ridden with some of them when visiting friends in other parts of the country. It was an enjoyable experience, and the locals seemed far happier to see us that the reception I see my local hunts getting, possibly as it involved absolutely no trespassing as well as no animal death for 'sport'.
 

shortstuff99

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Stuffed up some editing. Sorry!


Actually I think bull fighting is far more horrific. They take forever to kill the bull, I think maybe 3 swords? Can't remember exactly.
Yes I think it is worse too, I just think it is a similar scenario of one side saying horrifically cruel and one saying history and culture.
 

Rumtytum

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I have been reading this thread for a while now, and am pleasantly surprised in the days of SM being used to say (and threaten) horrible things that on the whole it is still remaining a (fairly) civil discussion, despite the fact that both 'sides' clearly feel very strongly. I am glad that posters on HHO so far have retained some respect for the feelings and opinions of others.

Like several other people on the thread my opinions have changed over the years. I hunted pre-ban and for a couple of years post-ban when I was a teenager and in my 20s. I stopped because I grew old enough to develop my own feelings and opinions, and realised that I had only previously agreed with hunting because my parents and social circle was very strongly pro(fox)-hunting. At that time the local hunt was still clearly hunting fox (post-ban) so I no longer took part.

In the area I live in now there are four foxhound packs that I could hunt with, but ALL of them hunt illegally (not trail hunting). It is openly known- and visible- in the (very rural) area. The vast majority of the locals are vocally anti-hunt, mainly due to the arrogant attitude that they can break the law, and in doing so trespass and cause damage to fences/crops/stock/etc, but also for welfare reasons for many of them. There are many signs on footpaths, bridle paths and gateways stating in no uncertain (and often very angry) terms that the hunt is not permitted on the land, and that the Police will be informed if they trespass.

Despite this widespread anti-hunt feeling, quite a few people I have spoken to- in particular the older generation for whom foxhunting was legal for most of their lives- say they miss the 'old' days when the hunts behaved, and say they would welcome trail hunting. They miss the tradition, the community spirit and the social side which they won't be a part of as long as the local pack is illegal. I have not spoken to anyone who would like trail hunting to be banned, even though they can't stand the local hunts.

In my opinion the local hunts (and any other illegal hunts) are very stupid. They don't seem to care how widely they are hated, and can't see that this arrogant, insular shortsightedness will be their downfall. If they all switched to trail hunting now (and did it properly) then they would be able to regain the support of the community, but at this rate no one except themselves will care if/when all hunting is banned.

I would like to trail hunt regularly, and would be sad if/when it is banned due to the current problems. I understand what Palo says about the loss of tradition and culture, but this could partly be avoided in the long-term if all hunts started behaving legally. I don't understand why (illegal) hunts are willing to risk their entire way of life by not changing to work within the law.

As others have said, I think the only way for legal trail hunting to survive is for the MFHA to condemn ALL illegal hunting, strongly sanction any 'accidental' kills (e.g. any more than X number of accidental kills during the life of the hunt and they will be de-registered and unable to obtain insurance), and invite hunt monitors to attend.

The hunt monitors and sabs would have to be willing to attend and behave civilly, and willing to honestly publicise that packs are behaving legally (i.e. no fox or other animals being killed). As Palo has said that hounds can and should be trained (and controlled) not to riot onto livestock/wildlife/pets, then this shouldn't be a problem if hunts are prepared to stop trying to hunt fox.

I am aware that there are already many hunts legally trail hunting, and have ridden with some of them when visiting friends in other parts of the country. It was an enjoyable experience, and the locals seemed far happier to see us that the reception I see my local hunts getting, possibly as it involved absolutely no trespassing as well as no animal death for 'sport'.
Excellent post!
 

Tiddlypom

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I've made my views on here quite clear, and I am plant based myself (don't call myself vegan as I ride horses) but this has literally just popped up on my Facebook, and I found it sort of threatening and I can see why it makes each side entrench more in their positions.
That is an alarming picture, and it will from be an extreme hunt sab group. There are aggressive and nasty nutters on both sides.

Firstly I will reiterate that I do not support hunt sabs of any sort. I support passive monitoring. But the sabs that I have inadvertently encountered out here were not violent or aggressive to man or beast - they were very intimidating, of course, which was the general idea, but not violent.

I don't doubt that other more violent sab groups exist, but they aren't all necessarily like that.
Surely those who ride with trail hunts will have a good idea of whether the hunts they subscribe to have been involved in illegal hunting? There was a lot of talk amongst people I hunted with about the 'bad' hunts in the area and I wouldn't have ridden with any of them even if I was given a free ticket.
The hunts need members & subscribers, if everyone distanced themselves from those carrying out illegal hunting - AND condemned it strongly in the public arena - this might not solve the problem but it would be a step in the right direction.
At the same time, some sabs need to re-think their tactics too; personally I feel that hunt monitoring is the way forward.
I've postulated this too, NK, only to be rounded on by some HHOers who insist that they wouldn't have a clue if a hunt they were following was trail hunting or fox hunting.

I just don't believe that. How can anyone out hunting be so unaware of what's really happening, it's not credible. And if they really are so unaware, they need to start asking some searching questions to find out the true picture.

In these parts if someone says they ride with hunt A, they trail hunt. If it's hunt B, they fox hunt. It's well known locally which is which.

And yes to hunt monitoring.
 

lannerch

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Yes I think it is worse too, I just think it is a similar scenario of one side saying horrifically cruel and one saying history and culture.
Fox hunting was not so one sided pre ban depending on the hunt admittedly but foxes usually got away . I was bought up in Surrey union country and if they ever caught a fox it was unusual. I don’t think the poor bull ever gets away.
 

shortstuff99

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Fox hunting was not so one sided pre ban depending on the hunt admittedly but foxes usually got away . I was bought up in Surrey union country and if they ever caught a fox it was unusual. I don’t think the poor bull ever gets away.
This is true, I hunted pre ban and never saw a fox be killed but I did see plenty escape. I stopped hunting when I kept rooting for the fox to win 😂

If I go now I only do drag as my old hunt breaks the law a lot and I don't want to be associated with that.
 

ycbm

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To find out of your trail hunt is hunting within the law, tell the trail setter that you want to do only a part day, and ask them which leg of the trail will be the best to break on to get back to your box/trailer easily.

If they can't tell you, you are following an illegal hunt.
.
 
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palo1

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We didn't find it silly at the time, they cost us thousands of pounds during a year the farm was running at at a loss. We did report it to the police, who didn't bother turning up.
I didn't in any way mean to suggest that the incident was trivial or silly, but your response to my statement seemed silly. I completely understand the issues of damage on farmland.
 

Miss_Millie

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https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/i-cried-whole-way-home-6464036

'A woman called the police after witnessing a hunt's hounds chasing a fox out of a field and through the middle of a village.

The 53-year-old Countesthorpe woman had gone for a walk with her husband near Peatling Magna and they were driving home at about 1.30pm on Saturday when the hounds and horses burst out of a field in front of them behind a fleeing fox.

The hunt has told LeicestershireLive that the incident happened after a number of its hounds became "disorientated" and that it took action to retrieve them immediately.'

Hounds in hot pursuit of a fox do not sound 'disorientated' to me...
 

GoldenWillow

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I think it is immoral and illegal for a group of people to threaten and intimidate others in an attempt to force them to bend to their view. Especially when trespassing which is illegal once it is pointed out to them and keeping their faces masked.
Do you think this is acceptable?
That is most unfortunate if your local foot hunt is a legal hunt. But if it's a naughty hunt, then catching them at the pub before or after the meet is probably fair game.

Repeated bad publicity from the antis brought to businesses and landowners which supported my local pack before it switched from illegal to legal hunting helped to force the hunt to ditch illegal hunting.

Now they are legit, the bad publicity has stopped.
I've kept away from this thread but have just caught up on the last 15 pages, many things jumped out at me but these resonated.

Fred66 every bit of your post apart from the faces masked bit applies to our hunt, illegally hunting, going over land they have explicitly been asked not to by landowner who gave his permission, and land which they have no permission to be on which has been raised many times with them. The reason they lost LO's permission to go on any land around us, approximately 1800 acres, is they were abusive to both farm manager and LO's partner on more than one occasion, including two times when all permission had been revoked by LO.

This was a pack hunting on foot, mixed pack hold both mounted and foot hunts depending where they are hunting.
 
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