HW cob - shoulders ping/flick when walking down hill

[Welshboy]

I bought a lovely cob a few months ago. He's 14.2 and a def HW, 11 years old.

I've noticed when walking downhill (being lead or ridden), his shoulder does a huge flicking action.. Almost looks like it flicks a few inches backwards. Bit like popping out??

It doesn't seem to cause problems, and can be either or both shoulders (which makes me less concerned). Never happens when doing flat work.

I'm thinking its something to do with his very chunky, bug shouldered conformation. Has anyone seen or come across this before...
Thanks

 

[Greylegs]

No ideas about why, but this happens to my highland sometimes too. He's a chunky boy as well with a broad chest and well spaced front legs, and the same height as your cob so maybe it is something to do with his build. doesn't seem to cause him any issues, it's just the way his shoulders work, but will be following with interest to see if anyone can add anything.

 

[Penny Less]

Wonder if it is something to do with ligaments. My old horse had an old tear from years back and the vet said consequently the joint was not held in the socket as tightly as it should be. Don't know if this is feasible or not

 

[WelshD]

It used to happen to my welsh sec D too. Bit jerky but didnt seem to do him any harm

 

[Welshboy]

Thank you for the replies... It's reassuring to hear of other people experiencing the same... And all v chunky types.

I was worried about it being an injury or ligament damage, but seems less likely with it being both shoulders.

(My daughter rode him bareback down a small slop to the field yesterday... She said it felt awful lol. But, as you've said it doesn't seem to bother him!)

Would be very interested in any more experiences or explanations for this..

Thank you

 

[NaeNae87]

Is it a shudder-y type movement? Like it looks like the shoulder should be crunching (think someone with a bad knee, squatting won't be a smooth movement for the joint, it shudders and crunches)?

If so, and it's noticable down hill... Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it could likely be cartilage degeneration (osteoarthritis). The shudder could be caused by bone rubbing on bone in it's worst cases. In mild cases it is the cartilage being worn away and will eventually end up as bone on bone.

I know the pictures are not of the same joint, but it's the best I can do using google...

A reasonably good looking joint. The cartilage is smooth, shiny etc. Not perfect, but again - am using google.

What it can end up looking like...

Sharon May Davis has done a lot of dissections and research on Equine Biomechanics. While attending one of her lectures late last year, she showed video of a horse who was fine walking up hill and on the flat... He had the shoulder shudder when going down hill. His was so bad that his owners had him PTS and asked Sharon to do a dissection on him. There was barely any cartilage left in his shoulder joint.

http://www.brindisiequestrian.com/1...-the-colourful-trial-of-form-vs-function.html
http://www.naturalhorse.com/archive/volume3/Issue3/article_5.php

She is really highly renowned. Very, very well educated and has a way of looking at a horse and instantly knowing what past, present and possible future injuries... just by looking at it. I have her contact information if you would like to email her and see what she says about your horse, just let me know and I can PM you.

One way to test the theory is to get a body worker out. Get them to work on the shoulder with the shudder. after they have worked on the muscles, walk the horse up and down a hill. If it is muscle related, then the movement will improve (the shudder will get better). If however, it is bone related the massage and work to the soft tissue will relax the muscles and make the shudder look more obvious due to the horse not carrying it's weight differently to compensate for any discomfort.

Get your vet to have a look at the shoulder and elbow joints. I hope it is not osteoarthritis, but it is something to investigate.

 

[Welshboy]

Naenae, really interesting post.. I do hope its not osteo - ive only owned him for 10 weeks.

The movement is more of a flick/slide than a crunch. There is an equine physio on my yard thing I will ask her to have a look...

 

[Sharon May-Davis]

Good evening Folks, my name is Sharon May-Davis and I saw this thread whilst researching on the web and hope you don't mind my one month delay in a possible answer.

1. the discussion put forward by Welshboy sounds very familiar to the elbow issue I am currently researching.
2. the action looks like a slip and clunk into the shoulder or a shudder or a sliding / slipping action. It depends upon your perspective.
3. the actual change in the action begins when the foreleg is in the "Stance Phase" during the stride as the limb goes into the posterior phase of the stride.
4. it is more obvious going down a hill.
5. so far, 100% of RIDDEN horses exhibit this condition to a varying degree (under dissection).
6. horses not ridden and with no abnormalities DO NOT exhibit this condition (under dissection).
7. horses in harness also exhibit this condition.
8. what does the joint look like? - there appears under dissection substantial degradation in the cartilage of the humerus, radius and ulna.
9. most horses appear to handle this condition and continue with a normal life if not pushed to extremes.
10. high level competitions require joint support to help sustain the elbow and other joints that may compensate for the change in action.
11. horses that jump are more inclined to land with straighter forelimbs.
12. and Naenae87 is right, massaging the triceps (particularly the lateral triceps) exacerbates the condition as the massage releases the cast like formation that the muscle provides.

At this point in time, I am trying to research this condition and vets are trying to diagnose the condition in my area here in Australia. Although this sounds career ending, in fact it is not. Once the horse gets through the worst of the wear pattern they re-settle in the joint and continue on with work. However, be mindful that jumping and downhill work could possibly make the condition worse. In truth, we are still in the dark, seeing it is one thing, analysing it and providing a preventative program is something totally different. Please wish us the best as these four legged beauties deserve it!

All the best - Sharon

 

[Honey08]

That's really interesting, thank you Sharon.

 

[Costypop]

It's good to learn something new, thankyou

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Is it a shudder-y type movement? Like it looks like the shoulder should be crunching (think someone with a bad knee, squatting won't be a smooth movement for the joint, it shudders and crunches)?

If so, and it's noticable down hill... Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it could likely be cartilage degeneration (osteoarthritis). The shudder could be caused by bone rubbing on bone in it's worst cases. In mild cases it is the cartilage being worn away and will eventually end up as bone on bone.

I know the pictures are not of the same joint, but it's the best I can do using google...

A reasonably good looking joint. The cartilage is smooth, shiny etc. Not perfect, but again - am using google.

What it can end up looking like...

Sharon May Davis has done a lot of dissections and research on Equine Biomechanics. While attending one of her lectures late last year, she showed video of a horse who was fine walking up hill and on the flat... He had the shoulder shudder when going down hill. His was so bad that his owners had him PTS and asked Sharon to do a dissection on him. There was barely any cartilage left in his shoulder joint.

http://www.brindisiequestrian.com/1...-the-colourful-trial-of-form-vs-function.html
http://www.naturalhorse.com/archive/volume3/Issue3/article_5.php

She is really highly renowned. Very, very well educated and has a way of looking at a horse and instantly knowing what past, present and possible future injuries... just by looking at it. I have her contact information if you would like to email her and see what she says about your horse, just let me know and I can PM you.

One way to test the theory is to get a body worker out. Get them to work on the shoulder with the shudder. after they have worked on the muscles, walk the horse up and down a hill. If it is muscle related, then the movement will improve (the shudder will get better). If however, it is bone related the massage and work to the soft tissue will relax the muscles and make the shudder look more obvious due to the horse not carrying it's weight differently to compensate for any discomfort.

Get your vet to have a look at the shoulder and elbow joints. I hope it is not osteoarthritis, but it is something to investigate.

Very old post apologies. I am currently looking into this with my 10yr old gelding. He has a awful shoulder clunk, worse than Sharons videos I'd say.
Do you still have her details? I'd like to message her a video and see what she thinks, if that was possible. I've red all of her research and it sounds very much like my gelding.