Hyperflexion - via draw reins, or rollkur... interesting article.

[kerilli]

amandap (thankyou!) posted a link to this on the thread i started about draw reins, i've just read it and it is very thorough and thought-provoking. the article is at
http://scienceofmotion.com/documents/hyper-flexion.html

if you haven't got time to read the whole thing, these are the most essential parts i think:

In 1995, the great Reiner Klimke wrote, “Now we breed only Rembrandts and Gigolos, if we can - and therefore we have developed our sport. The riding has not become better.” Klimke refers to Rembrandt and Gigolo because they were at this time the best horses in the world. The prediction of the late Olympic champion was accurate. Breeding programs have since given births to even more extraordinary horses. However, with superior talent comes tremendous power, great intelligence and high spirit; so much of these qualities that conventional training techniques are overwhelmed. Instead of upgrading their equestrian education to the quality level of their horses, riders and trainers practicing the hyper-flexion of the upper neck are downgrading their horses to ultimate domination by placing their horse in a situation where they have physically no way out. Upper neck muscles as well as higher segments of the nuchal ligament are weak; and once trapped in this posture, either subdued by physical pain or because they have no way out, or both, the horse’s brain shuts off as a survival reflex. They execute the moves mechanically, focusing on staying alive.
and
Submissive techniques belong to the equestrian education of the medieval age. There are approximately 344 articular surfaces in the horse’ vertebral column and their precise orchestration can only be coordinated by the horse’s brain with the rider’s assistance. Guiding the horse’s brain toward a physical orchestration far more elaborate than the limits of natural reflexes and that the horse mental processing could not conceive without the support of the rider’s analysis, is the partnership that classic authors and modern science are viewing as the ultimate achievement. Horses are ready, so are a large majority of riders and trainers.
and
A major obstacle, however, needs to be eradicated: an erroneous theory, which like a drug is feeding the dream that one will be winning while simultaneously destroying the partner without which one cannot win.

Amazing stuff imho.
Thoughts?

 

[Nando]

Here here! Very interesting article indeed. You really do know how to find this stuff and present it in an articulate manner!!

Whilst I might be considered soft for not using any 'restrictive' measures with my horses and perhaps foregoing high placings because of it, (esp as far as the dr side goes anyway) At least I know they are working with an active brain and performing because they want to, as part of a partnership, and not because they are forced to do it.

There are of course 2 sides as always, and obv if used correctly draw reins or similar do have their benefits, but of course all too often they are misused and this is where the above article to me makes perfect sense.

 

[Illegal]

Really interesting stuff - thanks. Agree in using a Pessoa and also side reins etc - but totally against the Rollkur - read an article and showed a piccie of the horses; tongue going blue!! It was so overbent it was heart breaking.

nb - are you Kerilee that used to go to Brackenhurst ?

 

[Booboos]

Is the author apparently suggesting that long and low is a problem, although less so than hyper-flexion, or am I misreading him (her)?

I am not an expert, but I think there are ways of measuring main in animals, a quick Google search revealed:
Roughan, J.V. and Flecknell, P.A. (2001).
Behavioural effects of laparotomy and analgesic effects of ketoprofen and carprofen in rats. Pain 90, (1-2) 65-74.

http://www.daff.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/299101/craig-johnson.pdf

http://www.afac.ab.ca/reports/UnderstandingPain.pdf

and many more.

Just off the top of my head and without being a specialist, an easy way of determining whether hyperflexion causes pain is to give animals used to this training routine painkillers, continue riding them in this way and observe changes. Most animals should exhibit quite different behaviour when pain free.

His dismissal of studies showing positive effects of hyperflexion as funded by the riders who practice it, is far too quick. Surely he can show some more substantial flaws in these studies?

Not sure I entirely get his main point though, will have to re-read it the whole thing.

 

[kerilli]

[ QUOTE ]
nb - are you Kerilee that used to go to Brackenhurst ?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, sorry, not me, i'm a different Kerry Lee (but this was the only spelling of my name available when i opened my very first email account!)

Booboos, i think i'd better go back and read it all again too, i didn't get that about long and low being a problem.
i think he is saying that hyperflexion is very detrimental to horses, to put it bluntly, but that it's a way for many uneducated modern riders and trainers to dominate the supremely intelligent, powerful and athletic horses we are breeding nowadays...

 

[Booboos]

So, his main argument step by step as far as I understand it:

1 first he rejects the general consensus on the work the nuchal ligament does (without referencing where this consensual judgement comes from) by appeal to 'reality' - this is quite evidently a pretty poor argument!

2 then he suggests that the lowering of the neck increases the workload of this muscle, accepting the this goes against 'traditional anatomy' (no reference to either the 'traditional' view or why he comes to reject it).

3 then he draws a parallel between 'the principle of storage and restitution of energy" between legs and this ligament, failing to explain what this principle is or why the parallel holds.

4 then he draws a weird conclusion from a study about the elastic energy stored in F4 and F3 to a claim about the weakness of these areas in terms of supporting a horse in hyperflexion - this seems to be the heart of the argument, but is almost nonsensical.

5 then there is appeal to the 'significant discovery' about the length of the ligament, but it's not clear why this point is relevant to his argument as

6 returns to re-iterate point 4 above

Then there appears to be a separate argument to do with the shape of the neck. There is a another unreferenced claim about the general consensus, and then some claim that seems to say that the function of the ligament now proves that lowering the neck increased the weight on the forelegs. Another effect further aggrevates 'the problem', although by this stage I am not clear what the problem is. The weight on the forelimbs? Then this has little to do with hyperflexion, any extension of the neck forwards is problematic, so most of riding is problematic.

Apologies to anyone who find this too penickety, a lifetime of teaching logic leads to certain habits...

 

[Daisychain]

Just out of interest, i used to have a horse which naturally went very overbent, very much like rollkur....

He would have stayed like this all day! It took him along time to get out of this habit, he chose to go in this way, which is interesting considering what rollkur is supposed to do, and the pain it is supposed to create. I just wonder why he would have chosen something that is painfull.

 

[Hedgewitch13]

But isn't that the difference though? He chose to go that way and wasn't forced into that position. Maybe it wasn't painful for your horse - for whatever reasons, that we will never know - but seeing horses that are forced into being overbent and that you can see have totally switched off, well that disgusts me and doesn't look right.

 

[camilla4]

[ QUOTE ]
But isn't that the difference though? He chose to go that way and wasn't forced into that position. Maybe it wasn't painful for your horse - for whatever reasons, that we will never know - but seeing horses that are forced into being overbent and that you can see have totally switched off, well that disgusts me and doesn't look right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is - overbending is, by definition, an evasion - Rollkur is a forced way of going,

 

[Rosiefan]

Did you have him from a baby?

 

[kerilli]

Booboos, i think i've realised i don't have a very logical brain...!

 

[oldvic]

I am not an advocate of rollkur but the article has a few flaws in its critisism of the training of the modern dressage horse. It claims that the reason for riding a horse deep like Nicole Uphoff used to with Rembrandt is to put more weight onto the forelegs so the horse has more freedom in his shoulders when he is allowed to bring his head up. I think most peoples understanding of working deep would be to stretch the topline and make the muscles more supple so the horse finds it easier to do the movements required of him. Also the concept of training the horse through pain goes completely against the idea of a happy athlete which is what we should be aiming at. Most horses, especially tense ones, will be more relaxed in a deep position which rather defeats the pain issue - who is relaxed when hurting?

 

[kerilli]

if by 'deep position' you mean rollkur position, it has never looked to me as if the horses were relaxed... if i've misunderstood what you mean though, i apologise.

 

[Daisychain]

He was an ex point to pointer.

 

[Booboos]

[ QUOTE ]
Booboos, i think i've realised i don't have a very logical brain...!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh don't mind me, I like beeing penickety!!!

Is it possible that this is a translation and a summary? It reads as if bits are missing.

 

[kerilli]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Booboos, i think i've realised i don't have a very logical brain...!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh don't mind me, I like beeing penickety!!!

Is it possible that this is a translation and a summary? It reads as if bits are missing.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i think it probably is a translation, i'm not sure about a summary. it's by Jean Luc Cornille who sounds very French to me!

 

[oldvic]

No, I don't mean rollkur, I just read the article quite quickly but I think it was talking about working deep as well as hyperflexion, hence the reference to Rembrandt who was worked deep. This was also to help with his spooky nature. I agree that in rollkur the neck and jaw don't look soft and relaxed although I cannot help but admire Totilas' willing submission in transitions, superb elasticity throughout the test and his lovely relaxed free walk after his test at Windsor.

 

[amandap]

Yes sadly I don't know enough to validate this article but neither do I know enough to validate some of the articles written opposing hyperflexion.
I do however think it does raise points that we should listen to and we should try to learn more about what effects some training methods have on the horses.

My heart tells me many of these hyperflexed horses are suffering, I look at their eyes and general demenour, I know that horses will try their best to evade discomfort, I know that horses rely on their eyesight to keep them safe and their vision IS reduced when they are in a hyperflexed position. I also know that some human torture techniques include tying humans or making them sit/stand in uncomfortable positions for hours on end to 'break them'... horses aren't that different! The recent equine genome project has shown this!

Also what on earth is wrong with being empathic, understanding and wanting to get the horse to want to work with you??? Why is it always seen as 'fluffy' in a derogatory way and that somehow you're not a real horseperson unless you 'show em who's boss'???? I just don't get it I'm afraid!!

 

[kerilli]

oldvic, Rembrandt wasn't just worked "deep", he was also worked in rollkur.
yes, amandap, i'm right with you on that. i'm obviously pink and fluffy and pathetic because i won't force a horse to do anything, i want to do things together, not MAKE a horse do stuff.

 

[camilla4]

[ QUOTE ]
yes, amandap, i'm right with you on that. i'm obviously pink and fluffy and pathetic because i won't force a horse to do anything, i want to do things together, not MAKE a horse do stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, paint me pink and fluffy too! I've always felt the greatest joy is in producing work with a horse that is the result of patient work, understanding and cooperation between horse and rider. I would never claim to be a truly great rider, but I have never taken shortcuts and never (knowingly!) made a horse perform in discomfort or pain. I have always expected my horses to work for their keep, but their happiness and well being has always come first.

 

[amandap]

For anyone that may be interested and please just ignore the hoof bits for those anti barefoot but do read the rest, I don't believe this is off topic as it concerns horses living without human intervention ie. naturally and so imo does have some relevance as a starting point to see how far from 'Natural' we keep/use horses. I put this up not to be provocative or contentious but as a learning opportunity.
http://www.hoofrehab.com/wild_horses.htm

 

[kerilli]

amandap, that is fascinating stuff, esp the pics of dissected hooves on
http://www.hoofrehab.com/jaime.htm

wow. just wow. lots and lots of food for thought there. thankyou.

 

[amandap]

Yes well PR is one of my idols but that aside I do think we should try to look more holistically at horses, you know if they've got poor, cracked hooves that wont keep a shoe on or keep getting laminitis or lame what else is going on in their bodies to contribute to this? etc. etc.

For those not interested in barefoot paragraph 3 is the one to read if you want to look at your horse in a different light. No doubt this is fluffy too and I'm sorry if some see it like this and I'm not trying to 'teach my grandmother to suck eggs' either.

 

[Booboos]

Very interesting link, thanks amandap!

Going through the site it has various hoof photos of wild horses, absolutely astonishing! I had always assumed wild horses would have very poor feet which would contribute to lameness and weakness to be exploited by predators, but these hooves are pretty amazing!

 

[JLav]

My thinking is the other way round ie any wild horses with poor feet would not survive to breed therefore only those with good feet will breed and the genetic tendancy present in many domestic horses that produces poor quality feet will not be present in wild herds.

 

[Booboos]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking is the other way round ie any wild horses with poor feet would not survive to breed therefore only those with good feet will breed and the genetic tendancy present in many domestic horses that produces poor quality feet will not be present in wild herds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you may well be right. It would be interesting to know how large these herds are, how many are lost to predators, whether numbers increase, decline or hold steady over the years.

 

[oldvic]

Rembrandt was worked deep and round but not in rollkur. There were others in that era that took it to the extreme of rollkur but not Nicole. Also the issue is not so much whether the head is up or down but how it is done. There are horses that are given a hard time or become uncomfortable ridden in a competition outline just as there are horses that are happy to be ridden deep and round in a soft way. Training horses is all about making what we want as easy and comfortable as possible for them.

 

[amandap]

[ QUOTE ]
Training horses is all about making what we want as easy and comfortable as possible for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

That imo is the important thing!! We need to communicate what we want in a way that is acceptable to and respectful of the horse! We're the ones with the big brains to work out how to do this without resorting to brute force, which surely will only breed resentment.

 

[amandap]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking is the other way round ie any wild horses with poor feet would not survive to breed therefore only those with good feet will breed and the genetic tendancy present in many domestic horses that produces poor quality feet will not be present in wild herds.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just to say that from what I've learned this is not the case. Hooves are forged by movement, diet and terrain.
If you read Jaime Jackson's research of hundreds of wild horse hooves he found no cracked, rippled,flared, contracted etc. ones.
Also I've never heard that wild horses are highly predated or heard reports of poor wild/feral hooves in good environments. Jaime Jackson tells a tale of a band of wild horses that were trapped behind fencing in lush grass (he got a call for help in the middle of the night) and every one had foundered!!!

I recommend Jaime Jackson's book 'The Natural Horse' and if you're flush Pete Ramey's 10 DVD series 'Under the Horse' both real eye openers.

Here's a UK site for more info. http://www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/

 

[chazot]

Hello...I am putting my husband response.

Thomas Pain has magisterially defined a lifetime of teaching logic, “A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right.” (Thomas Paine).

1,The nuchal ligament is not under tension when the horse's head is held in an alert posture, and is not elastic enough to allow grazing without separating the front legs. Theses beliefs are the general consensus. The reality is that the nuchal ligament does not have the support role commonly believed but rather a dynamic function easing the work of the upper neck muscles.

2, The head and neck weight 10% of the horse's body weight. As the neck lowers, the upper neck muscles elongate resisting the load of the head and neck, which for a 1200 pound horse, is 120 pounds. To do so the upper neck muscles are working in eccentric contraction which is the most powerful type of muscle contractions. Traditional views that emphasize stretching of the upper neck muscles omit one fundamental question. If the upper neck muscles stretch pulling on the back muscles acting from the head toward the horse withers, who is carrying the horse's head?

3 The role of the nuchal ligament is precisely to store and restitute energy in order to ease the work of the upper neck muscles. This is the same principle that the work of the lower legs' long tendons.

4, The upper region of the nuchal ligament has so little tissue volume that the area referred to as F3 and F4 in Gellman and Bertram's studies were regarded as too weak to have any significant capacity of energy storage.

5, The line of function of the nuchal ligament significantly changes the real effect of the nuchal ligament. Increased tension is mainly acting on the lower loop of the cervical vertebrae increasing the lowering of the lower cervical vertebrae and their attachment with the thoracic vertebrae.

6 The verticalization of the dorsal spinous processes of the cranial thoracic vertebrae does increase the lowering of the lower segment of the neck and the trunk between the shoulder blades.

The so-called stretching of the back muscles achieved by lowering or over-flexion of the neck is part of old beliefs that do not understand that the main function of the back muscles is precisely to resist increase in the range of motion of the horse's vertebral column. The equine thoracolumbar spine has a very limited range of motion and the main function of the back muscles is to protect the vertebral column structure form movements which amplitude would exceed the spine's range of motion. Any attempt to increase such amplitude of movement will be resisted by the back muscles. Efficiency does not reside in increasing the amplitude of the equine vertebral column movements but rather in a better coordination of numerous and minute muscle contractions. This is how the horse's vertebral column effectively works. Up to you to deny progresses. Jean Luc Cornille.