Hypothetical question re legal position

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ecrozier

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Ok asking on behalf of a friend who wants to remain anonymous!

She has recently bought a horse via what she believed to be a private sale.... *

What are people's thoughts on 'imaginative' wording of adverts? And what's the legal position of someone selling a horse 'on behalf of client', does that make them a dealer? If they were 'economical with the truth' in an ad, and the horse sold on basis of that ad, would they be liable? Or the owner?
*
Obviously I know you need to get the purchasers interested, and paint a horse in the best possible light, but at what point do you guys think it becomes immoral/illegal?!

Also - legal definition of a dealer? For example if someone advertises as a private seller but has several ads live on different website for different horses (in this case currently 4 horses over 2 websites), would that make them a dealer would you say? In eyes of law I mean as I personally have no issues buying from dealers! But believe in terms of the law, from a private sale it's very much 'buyer beware' but if the vendor is a dealer, there are more legal avenues open if something surfaces after the sale of the horse?***
 
I think there are guidelines on when a "private seller" becomes a "dealer" as it's come up on posts here before. If someone is selling half a dozen horses a year, I'm pretty sure they would count as a dealer and therefore would have to abide by the trade descriptions act.

As for being "creative" in an advert, I doubt it's an issue unless something is an outright lie. If your friend said "I want a horse with no vices who can do x" and the dealer lied, that could be a different matter.

However, I'm sure there are far more knowledgeable people on here who'll respond!!
 
The old adage buyer beware or caveat emptor is worth remembering. It is up to the buyer to ask the questions. Whenever we have been to see a horse to buy Dad always films me riding the horse with the vendor stood next to him and will ask the vendor various questions about the horse and that way we have it on video as proof if anything should go wrong with the horse being misrepresented.

For instance Dad won't say "does the horse have any vices?" as this wouldn't stand up in a court of law as the vendor could say that he didn't realise my Father was talking about the horse rearing for example. But if Dad phrased the question such as "Does the horse rear to your knowledge or has it ever reared?" then this would be a more 'safe' question to ask. Dad goes through all the scanarios, ie. "does the horse hack out alone", "does the horse rear?" "does the horse buck?" "does the horse load okay?", etc, etc, etc.

All on video tape with a nice little clip of the vendors face if you can manage it sneakily!

We are very cynical but have been caught out previously so would never risk it again.

And of course it goes without saying, always get any potential purchase properly vetted.

Finally we went to see a horse which was supposedly a private sellers horse. The saddle was too small for the hrose, the horses bit and bridle was only pony size and there was no documentation for the horse (years before passports came out) nor was the horse freezemarked. i reported this to the police and farmkey as I strongly believed the horse was stolen. It turned out when the police followed it up that the woman seller was a dealer but wasn't registered as a business so was paying no tax. that's why she didn't have the horses tack and was so cagey about things. The woman refused to sell me the horse so I went to another dealer and Dad told the second dealer what had happened and that I was devastated as I really had loved the horse and wanted to buy it. On further questionning about the horse and dealers details a it turned out he'd part sold the horse to the woman but she was yet to pay him the full amount so he'd kept the horses identifcation back until she'd paid in full. As she refused to deal with us as we'd got the police involved the second dealer said if we paid him £200 he would square it with her to sell us the horse subject to passing a vetting. This is what happened, and because I'd been so distraught when she refused to sell us the horse and because I knew he was so very pefect for me we decided to pay the £200 and I had my beloved Billy for 2 1/2 years of bliss before he very tragically died suddenly of a heart attack in November 2001.

RIP Billy Big (a.k.a Maltissimmo)
 
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Your friend needs proper legal advice, not info from a forum. She needs a specialist equine solicitor, one who understands how the law takes into account the facts when deciding whether someone is a dealer or not, and whether or not they are a principle agent when it comes to selling a horse. There is no clear cut answer about whether or not someone is a dealer, and about who is liable if the horse is sold on behalf of someone else.

If you are asked a direct question and you lie, then that is misrepresentation, if you omit a fact and no-one asks you about it, then that is buyer beware as I understand it, so it will all depend on the questions your friend asked, witnesses etc - she needs proper help.
 
j1ffy said:
I think there are guidelines on when a "private seller" becomes a "dealer" as it's come up on posts here before. If someone is selling half a dozen horses a year, I'm pretty sure they would count as a dealer and therefore would have to abide by the trade descriptions act.

As for being "creative" in an advert, I doubt it's an issue unless something is an outright lie. If your friend said "I want a horse with no vices who can do x" and the dealer lied, that could be a different matter.

However, I'm sure there are far more knowledgeable people on here who'll respond!!
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I don't think this is accurate - someone on here once pointed out something along the lines of a mother has several children who all outgrow their ponies/give up riding and she has to sell them at the same time - does that make her a dealer? Conversely, someone sets themselves up to buy and sell horses - are they not a dealer when they sell their first horse when their website states they are XXX horse dealers? Clearly the former is not a dealer, the latter is - which is why professional advice is needed!
 
SpottedCat said:
I don't think this is accurate - someone on here once pointed out something along the lines of a mother has several children who all outgrow their ponies/give up riding and she has to sell them at the same time - does that make her a dealer? Conversely, someone sets themselves up to buy and sell horses - are they not a dealer when they sell their first horse when their website states they are XXX horse dealers? Clearly the former is not a dealer, the latter is - which is why professional advice is needed!
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Fair point! Though in the latter case I'd expect they'd have registered as a business as well.

OP - is your friend a BHS member? If so, there is a free legal helpline that s/he could call, they may be able to offer initial advice before deciding whether to pay out for a lawyer.
 
Hmm yes thanks, I think she may well go this route, as horse is definately not as advertised, but as you all say it's buyer beware in terms of asking the righ questions and being very specific!
 
j1ffy said:
Fair point! Though in the latter case I'd expect they'd have registered as a business as well.

OP - is your friend a BHS member? If so, there is a free legal helpline that s/he could call, they may be able to offer initial advice before deciding whether to pay out for a lawyer.
Click to expand...

You don't have to though - as long as you inform the tax man you are self employed, you don't have to do much else if you are a sole trader as I understand it. I set up as a limited company when I went freelance to limit my liability as much as anything else, but there is no requirement to do more than register with HMRC unless you go into a business which need specific permits etc.

BHS helpline would be a good start, but I haven't heard the greatest things about it, so I'd follow up with specific solicitors advice!
 
My recollection of this is somewhat shady, but I think...... If the vendor tells you something which induces you to enter into the contract and you rely on it, then, if it transpires to be untrue, you'd go after the vendor for misrepresentation. Remedy for that is recission (sp?) of contract. Doesn't matter if you the purchaser could have verified whether it was true. So if a horse is advertised as having won GBP 500 BS and you buy it on that basis, believing it to have won GBP 500, you could rescind if it turned out to have won GBP 50. A little trickier if it's advertised as a "novice ride" because that's more subjective; what is a novice ride? Definition of dealer am not sure. Possibly regular sale of horses for a profit.
 
If you are asked a direct question and you lie, then that is misrepresentation, if you omit a fact and no-one asks you about it, then that is buyer beware as I understand it, so it will all depend on the questions your friend asked, witnesses etc - she needs proper help.[/QUOTE]

This is correct. I am going through the legal process now with a horse that has been misrepresented to me.

In the back of the H&H there are a couple of specialist horse solicitors who will give you free advice - look for Jacqui Fulton, she is knowledgeable and helpful.

I have legal protection as part of my house insurance which I will be using in order to try to get some redress from the scumbag liar who cleverly fleeced me.
 
A few years ago a friend bought a horse from an event rider. It all went wrong, horse was not as described. Event rider was selling the horse 'on behalf of'. Friend could not legally do anything (her husband is a lawyer, but not equine specialist) even though she was out of pocket as she lost a huge amount of money (horse killed itself).

Selling a horse 'on behalf of' is a clever trick used by dealers.
 
Hmm interesting thanks Thistle, so she couldn't pursue either dealer or original vendor?
Not clear on exactly what she did/didn't ask, but I have seen the advert and the horse is specifically described as one thing and she is definately not. But the 'on behalf' thing may be a stumbling point. I will pass on the recommendation though.
 
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