Hypothetical situation

[Neversaydie]

Question for you all

If a YM moves a horse into an area or field that the owner doesn’t agree with or want to happens without the owners consent and the horse is injured in the process then who is liable for that?

YM wants to move a liveries horse into a new herd just because they believe it’s right and wants it to happen but the livery is concerned about the very wet rocky ground the horse is going into and the damage that could happen. Livery has voiced their concerns strongly but YM is insisting.

Ground is very very soft and very rocky I wouldn’t want my horse in there at this time of year unless there was a hard frost as it’s clay and at least half way up my wellies in places. To me it’s an accident waiting to happen or a tendon blow waiting to happen.

Horse is in a field with other horses and all is well, this is not a requirement at this time YM is just insisting.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Interesting question. Interested in answer. I suspect it boils down to negligence. And whether someone has been or not.

 

[meleeka]

Interesting question. Interested in answer. I suspect it boils down to negligence. And whether someone has been or not.

That’s what I was thinking. Does the YM have the authority to put the horse in another field without livery consent? If so they would be negligent if have thought. It doesn’t help the horse though and I’d be making sure somebody heard me say that I didn’t agree with it if it were my horse.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

That’s what I was thinking. Does the YM have the authority to put the horse in another field without livery consent? If so they would be negligent if have thought. It doesn’t help the horse though and I’d be making sure somebody heard me say that I didn’t agree with it if it were my horse.

I wouldn't just make sure that someone else heard, the I would email the YM, telling him/her that if the horse is injured in any way, I would hold him/her responsible. That way there would be a paper trail. However I would also be leaving that yard asap because I wouldn't want the risk to my horse.

 

[Equi]

My old yo put a horse in with mine once cause “he thought it would be okay cause your horse doesn’t fight back” (said horse was bullying everyone else and constantly causing fights) this horses owner said NOT to do this because he will attack my horse. sure enough five mins later this horse had mine in the corner, his bum practically on the floor, booting him with both hind feet right in his back. I went in with a stick and that horse got a bloody good wollop and I took mine out and then I gave the YO a bloody good verbal wollop. I’ve never been so cross. If he had if needed further vet treatment bar bute, I damn well would have held the yo responsible.

 

[rabatsa]

Is the yard manager the yard owner? If not I would make sure that the yard owner is aware of my concerns.

 

[Neversaydie]

Is the yard manager the yard owner? If not I would make sure that the yard owner is aware of my concerns.

No YO is who we pay. YM is a relative and honestly the yard is great apart from YM having these moments.

 

[AmyMay]

There has to be more to this, surely? Why would a YO want to just move a horse without any good reason? Are they in mixed or single sex herds?

 

[Neversaydie]

There has to be more to this, surely? Why would a YO want to just move a horse without any good reason? Are they in mixed or single sex herds?

No horse is fairly new to the yard and the YM wants to balance out the herds. We have mixed herds here. There is one gelding in with two mares but the mares get too fat and are removed from the herd in the summer. The other horse in that field has gone so left an uneven number. Ym believes this horse being young will be accepted better than an older horse as the gelding has been known to be very aggressive.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

TBH, if I were the owner of any of the horses in the new field, I would be very cross because any of them could get injured by running round with a new addition to the herd. I would certainly make sure that YO knows what is being proposed and the objections to the proposal.

 

[Shay]

Its a difficult one - and actually complicated by the fact OP is in Scotland and some types of law apply differently there. In general YO's / YM's have a limited right to direct the palcement of horses for the benefit of all. That is why they have (or should have) control insurance. It would be chaos if every livery owner had a right to suddenly deicde thier horse should be in a particular stable or field. On the other hand if any person acts negligently within the law (this may not amount to negligence depending on the full circumstances) they are likely to be at risk at least of a claim for damages. The legally correct response to an owner / manager proposing to place a horse in a feild where the owner does not wish to be is simply to remove the horse; with or wothout notice depending on the contract breach. Horses are property and, in law, no more difficult to move than a car. Of course the real world is more complicated!!

 

[ihatework]

Legally I don’t know.

But in that situation, if I were the horse owner I would put explicitly in writing that I didn’t consent to horse being in that field and would offer my notice and move horse.

If I were YO/YM I would offer a months notice of change of terms to the livery and advise that after that month the horse would be moving fields, thereby giving you the opportunity to either consent to it or leave.

 

[Neversaydie]

The livery is very upset, they lost a horse during the summer and this recently bought young one is their hope for a fun horsey future. Livery doesn’t want to leave, just doesn’t want the young horse injured. Has said they they are happy for him to move once the ground hardens up, has no issue with the move Except for the fact that the ground isn’t great right now.

I don’t get the urgency myself, the aggressive gelding will either attack or he won’t, the young one is quick enough to get out of the way, however the ground is what would concern me the most.

 

[be positive]

No horse is fairly new to the yard and the YM wants to balance out the herds. We have mixed herds here. There is one gelding in with two mares but the mares get too fat and are removed from the herd in the summer. The other horse in that field has gone so left an uneven number. Ym believes this horse being young will be accepted better than an older horse as the gelding has been known to be very aggressive.

I would be more concerned with another gelding being put out with 2 mares and a gelding known to be aggressive towards other geldings than the condition of the field although that makes matters potentially worse, I am not keen on mixed herds if you get a gelding who is dominant in the mix, as a YO this is an accident waiting to happen, the young one may be quick but a bully will usually continue to bully so if it were my horse I would give notice and the reason.

 

[ihatework]

The livery is very upset, they lost a horse during the summer and this recently bought young one is their hope for a fun horsey future. Livery doesn’t want to leave, just doesn’t want the young horse injured. Has said they they are happy for him to move once the ground hardens up, has no issue with the move Except for the fact that the ground isn’t great right now.

I don’t get the urgency myself, the aggressive gelding will either attack or he won’t, the young one is quick enough to get out of the way, however the ground is what would concern me the most.

I can see this from both angles, having seen a few DIY yards operate you always get some liveries that want to call the shots on the best fields and will fabricate all sorts of reasons to justify this and make the YO look like the villain. I am NOT saying this is what you are doing btw, because none of us know on an Internet forum.

I have also seen YO definitely make really idiotic decisions that put horses at risk. IME it doesn’t stop at one action and I wouldn’t want a horse in that sort of set up full stop.

So if you are genuinely being put in a situation where your horse will be at risk, you might not want to move, but it could be your only option.

 

[Neversaydie]

I can see this from both angles, having seen a few DIY yards operate you always get some liveries that want to call the shots on the best fields and will fabricate all sorts of reasons to justify this and make the YO look like the villain. I am NOT saying this is what you are doing btw, because none of us know on an Internet forum.

I have also seen YO definitely make really idiotic decisions that put horses at risk. IME it doesn’t stop at one action and I wouldn’t want a horse in that sort of set up full stop.

So if you are genuinely being put in a situation where your horse will be at risk, you might not want to move, but it could be your only option.

I am not the livery, I was just the shoulder to cry on and having no experience with this sort of thing I just thought I would ask a question.

As I said the livery has no problem with the horse moving at some point. But after losing a horse to a blown tendon/ligament damage (not entirely sure on exact injury) in the summer I can imagine that the thought of possibly losing another would be terrifying.

 

[Auslander]

I'd be putting my foot down, and telling the YM that my horse was not to be turned out with X. I run a yard, so know all too well what a pain it can be making sure horses and their owners are all happy - so not coming at this from the perspective of an owner. Admittedly, I'm a bit over the top in terms of risk, and keep new ones separated for a long time before I introduce them - and although I don't officially offer split/individual turnout, I have some that don't go in with the others, partly because I don't want anything getting hurt, but mostly because I can't be bothered to spend my time breaking up fights, patching up injuries, and watching them churn my land into slush because they're galloping round like idiots trying to kill each other!

 

[blitznbobs]

If the horse damages the ground who is responsible?

It probably comes down to contracts tbh... and if not then the yard owner has taken responsibility for the horse, therefore has a duty of care, it would probably come down to whether the action is considered negligent or reasonable ... horses get injured in fields all the time, if there were horses in there before and there hadn’t been a lot / any injuries then it probably would be for the owner to sort horse but if there had been previous injuries or there was a reason the field had never before been used for horses then it may be seen as negligence and there fore the yard owners problem... this sort of litigation has a lot of case law and it would depend on many variables over which way the judge swung... and because of this the law is probably a bit mobile and the judge on the day could swing the decision either way.

 

[whiteflower]

If the livery doesn't want her horse in a different field, if she has spoken to the yard manager and they are unable to find another solution that suits all then the livery needs to find an alternative yard that suits their needs better. Not ideal but if what's being offered is not suitable and no alternative can be found that looks like the only option to me and maybe agree for the horse to stay put for the notice period

 

[twiggy2]

I would not want my horse turned out in a soft boggy field with clay halfway up my wellies and with rocky areas at any time and would move yards.
When the field dries up it will be a rock hard clay field with deep ruts and rocks, even if it is rolled there will still be rocks and ruts around the rocks.
I am also not a fan of more than one well behaved gelding out with mares on yards where there is lots if changes in herd dynamics.
A bully will bully and accidents will happen but the field sounds like the biggest issue to me.

 

[splashgirl45]

if i was the livery, i would tell YM that i am taking horse away if this field change cant wait till the ground is harder, then i would e mail the YO and tell them the same........although if it was me and my horse i would leave as quick as i could because i wouldnt trust the YM not to move my horse when i wasnt there. there is always a choice, either do as you are told and put horse in field or leave.....

 

[onemoretime]

My old yo put a horse in with mine once cause “he thought it would be okay cause your horse doesn’t fight back” (said horse was bullying everyone else and constantly causing fights) this horses owner said NOT to do this because he will attack my horse. sure enough five mins later this horse had mine in the corner, his bum practically on the floor, booting him with both hind feet right in his back. I went in with a stick and that horse got a bloody good wollop and I took mine out and then I gave the YO a bloody good verbal wollop. I’ve never been so cross. If he had if needed further vet treatment bar bute, I damn well would have held the yo responsible.

I don't blame you I would do the same. Some of these YO's are totally irresponsible and just don't care.

 

[LaurenBay]

My YO (grass livery) moved my mare to another field. I hit the roof. The field was totally unsuitable for Horses, there was some type of small building in the middle that had nails sticking out of it, a little bridge that was crumbling and had a metal sheet over it to cover a hole (the side was so sharp when I picked it up to move it I sliced my hand) not to mention the grass was incredibly lush. My mare had terrible diarrhoea, her crest was rock solid and she had raised digital pules. I immediately moved her back to her old field. YO and I had an argument over it and she ended up leaving and I took over. Luckily mare escaped a lami attack, stomach settled back down and she didn't injure herself on the many dangerous things I found in the field. If she had YO would have been getting the bill though.