I admit, I'm flummoxed on this one, need help please

[itsme123]

Rosie is such a good girl, and I've done my damnest to not mother or spoil her. Okay the odd new toy a week, coats etc, but she's coming on in leaps and bounds.
I've got a problem though in that she barks ALOT when we go out.
Routine is this: she goes into her crate before we go out, we put coats and shoes on and just exit. Lock the door... gone. Never leave her for more than an hour max. If we're going to the yard she comes with us, and weekdays she's left for half hour twice a day whilst I do the school run.
My neighbours tell me shes barking alot and they're starting to tire of it. They're elderly and we leave at 8.30am, so she wakes them up. I can well believe it as I can hear her barking down the street

she is so so loud. Next door but one can hear her too. She settles after about 15 minutes though.

I've tried the leaving her for a few moments, coming back in, avoiding eye contact, and then going to her when I'm ready, and when we come in we do not go straight to her. It hasnt worked, she just goes into a frenzy.
My dad gave me a collar that beeps when they bark, but I'm reluctant to use it, though the trainer says it'll do the job as nothing else has worked.
Obviously I don't want to pee off the neighbours, so would this collar be worth a try? It does a high pitched noise (beep) in reaction to the vibration in the throat, so doesnt hurt, but is it bad to resort to such 'aids' at such a young age? (she's 5 months now)/

 

[Spudlet]

You could try something like a DAP infuser first, the vets sell them and they are meant to have a calming effect.

Do you leave her with a Kong or similar to distract her from the actual leaving bit? I always leave Henry with one and he is so busy taking it to his man cave (ok, his crate, I saw one called a man cave on loldogs and I love it as a term

) that he doesn't notice I'm gone, and I leave the radio on to cover the sound of me leaving.

 

[lizziebell]

Seperation anxiety can be a difficult one to tackle. Has she too much energy - what happens if you take her for a good long walk just before you go out?

Also, getting her used to being in a seperate room whilst you are still in the house. Does she sleep on her own at night? It might be the whole preperation of seeing you getting ready and going out.

 

[itsme123]

yes, she usually has a kong and her pigs ear (don't ask.,.. we go through mountains of pigs ears, the only thing she will actually chew and likes) when we go out and have tried leaving the radio on. I've also tried leaving her loose in the kitchen with the door shut. To no avail

I don't think she's anxious as such as she shows no signs of being anxious before we leave or when we get back (she just lays down) I *think* it may be the noise from passing pedestrians?
To explain a bit further, OH works away three days/nights a week. She's very close to OH and definately sees him as alpha male, maybe to the point of believing he is more important than me. When he's not here she paces looking for him and if she hears a passing pedestrian she runs up to where he normally sits, looks for him then barks and growls at the door like "It's MY home.. he's not here...come near my family and I kill you!"

But when he's here she sits quite calmly and ignores anyone passing. So when we're all out she must be kind of thinking she has to protect the home venomently. We get lots of passing pedestrians and cars/lorries etc as it's a busy road. Her relationship with him is great, I couldn't wish for better, he comes in the door and she goes "Oh my God! Dad!" and flies up to him tail wagging all excited, and he's done alot of the training with her.

Reading back I guess it could be anxiety? If she feels that she is the main protector of the home when he's not here?
But yes, it's not a "please come home I'm lonely" it's more of a "who are you walking past MY door? my master isnt here and it's MY job to look after the house" it's a very 'protective' stance she takes, with a deep bark and a definate "I'm a big BAAAAD dog!" posture. If we walk her together she ignores anyone we meet. If I or the children walk her without OH she's terrible, the other week a jogger ran up behind the children and I and she went loopy at him.
It's nice to have her bark when a stranger comes to the door, but this is excessive.

 

[CAYLA]

She needs to be spending time in the crate whilst you are in the house aswell as out, and I mean an equal amoubt at this age, I actually do the opposite to others and dod not increase the time spent in their, I start with longer periods in the crate then decrease when Im satisfied they are over the anxiety stage, in the mean time I spend more time exercising and tiring and creating a crate routine than lavishing affection, as this in turn heightens the anxiety of them wanting to be with you more.

Put the crate somewhere she cannot see you leave and put the radio on, so she cannot hear you leave, in turn if you also practice this routine when u are in, effectively she should not be aware of when u are in or out.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I've tried the method about not letting the dog see me change clothes, put on my coat and take out my handbag etc, but personally I don't feel that method works, my dogs can still hear that I change clothes, take my coat down from the hanger, zip up the lock to my handbag after checking that everything is there etc.
Actually it only made the dogs that I tried that with, even more observant and more reluctant to leave me out of sight, after all, they never knew when I would try to deviously sneak away from them.

So I prefer the method of that a little now and then as a part of being home alone training, I change my clothes (to going out clothes), put on my coat and get my handbag out and put something in there/check so everything is there just as I would before leaving the house for real, then I go to sit down in the sofa, goes to the toilet or whatever (in my coat and with my handbag

), so that it is not something that only happens when I will leave them.






Sometimes I make them sit a metre or so from the door, walk out in my indoor clothes with a big bag of treats, stands outside the door and when they are quiet I open the door and gives them a treat. Sometimes I do the whole change to going out clothes, put on coat and get handbag routine, makes them sit a metre or so from the door and with a big bag of treats in my bag or pocket I go out, stands outside the door and when they are quiet I open and give them a treat.

The point with this training is that they should learn that they should be silent when I am on the outside of the door. In the beginning I almost always open the door and give them a treat as soon as they are silent and even once they begin to get the hang of it, I always first begin that way but eventually it becomes more and more of the roulette reward system.
The roulette reward system is about making it random how short or long time they need to do something, like in this case being silent, before they get their reward.


Then as they get better at it, I might bring a crossword or book with me so that I can sit down outside or close to the door, if they misbehave to much I can open the door and tell them to stop but if they behave I will randomly open the door and give them a treat but with a crossword or book whit me, I have something to do while letting them wait longer between the treats.


This is in a way the same training as when training them to wait in a crate or in another room than the room you are in.






As the others have already suggested, try to make her tired in both body and brain before leaving her. You can use toys with treats hidden inside so that she has to figure out how to get the treats out, if you feed her dry food you can either put her food in one of those balls that they push and roll around to make the food come out so that she needs to think a little and not just eat what is in front of her in her bowl and/or you can throw out her food all over the floor and let her get some work by finding all her bits of food.
When you know that she will be left on her own after a walk, do a few extra basic training things with her during the walk.



As Spudlet suggested, you can both try and get a D.A.P. infuser, it is not a 100% miracle cure but it is often useful if you want to remove some of the edges of their behaviour and give her a Kong that you first have put stuffed with carrot purée, yoghurt or similar in the freezer, so that you can give it to her frozen before leaving, it is also often a good distraction.




That is the things I can think of at the moment. About the anti-bark collars, I think some of them are quite good but I see them as an aid to help with the training and not something to be used as a replacement of training. As with most things, there is better and less good examples of these collars, there is collars that works great on some dogs but not at all on other dogs etc. E.g. some collars only works on dogs with really short fur or their sensor can not feel when the dog barks.

Also what the collar does, works differently on different dogs. I've heard of collars using a high pitched noise (as the collar you have been given), collars simply using the sound of air being sprayed out and collars spraying out some scent for deterrence/distracting purposes and I've also heard of collars where you can choose which method you want to use.


Not all dogs react the same way at these deterrent distractions, some might not react at all, some might react badly and between is all the rest. That is why you should always first see how your bitch responds on it when you are at home, there is not necessarily any need to dismiss it at once even if she at first might react a little scared or confused and it is definitely no need to remove it if she sulks over wearing it but if it after a while makes her shut off mentally or if e.g. the noise only triggers her to bark at the noise, then that type of anti-bark collar is wrong for your bitch.



Good luck.

 

[Patches]

Do you ever put Rosie in the crate during the day, when you're in the house? I crate Harvey during the day...after each meal time for at least 30 minutes, I crate if I'm ironing as it's the safest thing to do (and when ironing he can see me) and he's also crated for ten minutes or so to calm down if he gets very silly....in the way only a spangle can get silly! ***rolls eyes***

He never creates a fuss when he's put in his crate. He has a cracker jack biscuit and another one and a half cracker jacks stuffed inside his Kong if I plan to leave him for any length of time. He's actually in his crate now. We've just left the car the garage for it's MOT. I've not gone to get him straight out and he's not creating. He doesn't see me coming back into the house as his cue to be let out, neither does he always see me shutting him in the crate as his cue for me going outside and leaving him.

Where does Rosie sleep at night? Will she ever take herself off to the crate to sleep during the day/evening of her own accord? Harvey does. He likes his bed/den.

 

[itsme123]

I'll get shot, I know, but she sleeps in a bed next to us at night. She barks and howls so much the neighbours complained so we started having her in our bed, then moved to her own bed beside ours. She has her daytime bed, and her nightime bed now

. She's fine at night (unless OH isnt there when she whittles and paces for about half hour)

She's let out at 6.30am, and left to run round the garden for about half hour, she pretty much entertains herself and we can see her from the kitchen so she's safe. Sometimes she plays with the cat. Then she comes in, is fed, and goes in her crate whilst we get ready for school run, then she goes out for a wee, back in her crate during school run (8.30am - 9am). I come home, leave her in her crate whilst I do the washing up, then take her for a walk, home, and she has a bit of a mooch round/play with toys etc. Then back in hercrate about 11am whilst i do housework. Out at lunch for a wee/play/eat for about an hour, then back in whilst i do the school run. Then we all go to the yard where she runs free round the fields with her doggy friend (fields are safe, she can't escape), then home, crate whilst we have dinner. She gets fed at about 7pm again, and does as she pleases in the evening, which sometimes means she curls up with us on the sofa, sometimes she takes herself to her crate.
This morning I thought I'd try a different tact, and left her crate door open radio on, her pigs ear in her crate and a stuffed kong. I walked back in the door to be met with a destroyed kitchen. She'd had the cupboard doors open and pulled out various jugs/pots etc. She was sat in her bed giving me the "I didnt do it mum" look. BUT i asked the lady next door and she said she didnt hear her bark this morning.

Rosie has 'silly' moments too which involve haring round the house at breakneck speed, throwing herself up in the air, lots of barking (which I respond to with a 'nooo' and reward her when she stops barking). The house is so small that she can't fail to notice when we go out. She doesnt create if I go out to the garden (with full coat etc on) just mainly when I go to do the school run in the mornings.

 

[itsme123]

I'm laughing at the thought of you sat on your sofa in full coat/shoes/handbag

but thats a good idea, I think I'll try that.

We've tried all going out the door and rewarding her when she's quiet, but she KNOWS when we're still there. Hard to explain, but from our front door it's just two paces to the kitchen, the house is very small. So she can hear ALL that happens outside the front. Kitchen is about three or four paces long so even at the back of the kitchen she can hear. But I guess I could try standing round the corner a bit and see if that works?

If I have to do shopping I've taken to coming back from the school run, seeing her, letting her wee, then going out again because I don't want to immediately leave her for an hour, when shes used to half hour, but I don't want her stuck in a routine and then fussing because her routine's broken, she's five months now and I think plenty old enough to be left for longer intervals??

I think I might try again with the standing outside the door (or in my case, down the street a little) again, and be quite strict with it before I try the collar. I'm reluctant to use things which mask a problem, I'd rather deal with the root of it.

Thankyou for the advice, it makes alot of sense. I'm very much one who likes a method of training to make alot of sense to me before I use it, and this does that.

 

[itsme123]

she's quite happy to take herself to her crate, which is positioned in an alcove in the kitchen. Ie during half term she found the children being around all day far far too exciting and tiring and took to taking herself there when she just wanted some space. And I think she spends alot of time in there for a dog of her age? (as described in my reply to patches). She's only recently come into the 'coming out for a mooch around' phase, now I can trust her to 'leave' things when asked and come when I ask her to etc. Before that she'd only come out for walks/play/toilet/feeding.
When we walk we either go to the local park, which has an array of dog walkers (I'm paranoid about letting her off in the park because there's lots of bigger dogs) so she goes on the longline, or if it's quiet is let off for a run and a game of 'fetch' thatcan last up to half hour. Or we go to the fields which takes about an hour, and involes lots of walking and running. I do one training session with her a day, we go through all she knows and then onto something new. At the yard she runs round for ages with her lab friend lots of chasing and rolling each other over games. I take the bus /car to the yard as it's easier with her in tow, but it's within walking distance, takes half hour to walk there, so not sure if I should start walking when the weather improves or if it'd be too much for her to walk half hour there (all uphill) play with her friend for half hour, then walk back? I donb't want to do any damage to her, and she plays alot with the cat in the garden (we've a tabby who thinks playing with small dogs is great fun).

It's hard to pretend i'm out when I'm in as the house is so so small, but I'm going to try.

Thanks for the pointers, fingers crossed we can get this sorted before she's too much older.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Glad to hear that your neighbour had not heard Rosie bark this morning.

Whatever works to keep her silent...



About the walking, it of course depends on when the weather improves enough (how old she is then) and whether we are talking steep uphill or just a mild incline? But in general I think it sounds too much for a dog below a year old.

It is one thing to run and roll around and play with other dogs/explore the world with you out walking, where you can change plans if it becomes to much and another thing to actually go for a walk that will be between point A to point B and goes all uphill one way and all downhill on the way back, especially when she will not be able to resist playing with the other dog while you're there.




Besides no matter how tired her body is, if her brain is not tired, she will still probably have the energy to bark when being left alone. By the sound of it, today when she kept herself busy, her brain was occupied with other things than barking. It could also be a way of comforting herself (to investigate and drag out things that maybe smells of you) but either way, it worked and kept her quiet.


Personally, I prefer training short periods and concentrate on a few things at a time, rather than doing everything in one training period. There is also simple things you can activate her with that does not 'cost' you much time while you're doing other things in the morning, hide a new gnaw bone/a toy/some treats under something and let her find it (under a sofa or cushion/on the seat of a side chair, basically anywhere where it is not served straight in front of her nose 'on a plate' without gives her a chance to ''Go and find it'' on your command), you could go out and hide a gnaw bone/toy in the garden, you can train waiting while she sits or lays somewhere, if you have an empty toilet roll - put a treat in it, squeeze the ends shut and give to Rosie etc.


Though about the toilet roll, if your Rosie is not too keen to rip things apart to get to the goodies, you should not squeeze the ends to much shut in the beginning. (

Jonna pushing at toilet roll with her nose, looks to see if goodies came out/became available, pushes a few times more and then looking at me wondering why I tease her with goodies she can not get to...

)

 

[itsme123]

Thankyou, yes I did think the walk to/from the yard might be too much together with the play she gets once she's there, though she is apt to stopping dead and sitting down when her legs are tired

(which is her hint for "carry me please!").

She loves loo rolls so that idea is a good one, and I'll certainally try it. We've found we have to have a definate play time in the early evening, usually OH sitting on a toy and letting her scramble for it, before it's thrown and shes asked to retrieve, in order for her to be tired enough to settle for the night.
This afternoon I left her crate open again but emptied the cupboards of anything that she could get hold of, came home to cupboard doors still closed and her in her crate. AND I was half hour late as I'd taken the kids to the park. So i was quite pleased, but don't know if she barked or not. The only thing she'd done was take a towel off the radiator. I was even more impressed because we had builders in the back garden and normally she;d freak at the thought of strangers being outside, nothing ripped up and the neighbours didnt come round and complain which means either they're bored of complaining or she didnt bark.
She has that terrier instinct to 'kill' toys, and loves anything that makes a noise, so I'm going to take her to the feed shop (sells dog stuff) and get more interesting toys, perhaps so i can chop and change what she has out a bit more often to provide more interest.
We have her one to one training sessions once a week, and although we've done the initail meeting of the other dogs, dog school doesnt start for another three weeks.
I'll start hiding things for her, and involve the children in some hide and seek and things and see if a number of games a day helps her settle when we're out.

Thankyou again