I agree that the FEI need a boot up the bum

[skewbaldpony]

but I would not like to see every thread about our Olympic successes taken over by/ killed stone dead by the promotion of this view.


Dons tin hat and takes cover.

 

[angelish]

I've fetch my tin hat to join you as I agree
I normally enjoy the commentary threads but the dressage threads kept getting mobbed by people bitching about hyper flexion

 

[skewbaldpony]

I've fetch my tin hat to join you as I agree
I normally enjoy the commentary threads but the dressage threads kept getting mobbed by people bitching about hyper flexion

and it's fine to say that - picks name from the air - Adelinde's horse was overbent, behind the vertical etc - I've said it myself! Just don't like every thread ending with a call to arms.
We know. Yes. Please do lets have a 'put pressure on the FEI' thread.
This one if you like
Just not all of them.

 

[DragonSlayer]

I've fetch my tin hat to join you as I agree
I normally enjoy the commentary threads but the dressage threads kept getting mobbed by people bitching about hyper flexion

..perhaps because they feel passionate about it? It's not bitching.

It's easily done, ignore the comments you don't want to see, that's what I do if I'm not wanting to partake in a discussion and stick to whatever it is you are talking about.

 

[Goldenstar]

Flighty horse in very tense atmosphere gets overbent and short inthe neck , there's a surprise.

 

[skewbaldpony]

I think I'm being taken a bit out of context here. I don't have a problem with people criticising hyperflexion, I'm one of them.
I had noted that threads - not even particularly relevant ones - were having calls to pressurise the FEI tacked on the end of them. That's what I objected to.

 

[WestCoast]

Professional bodies that deal with any kind of competition involving animals will rarely be filled with people who have the welfare of the animals as their highest priority. When the latest animal welfare legislation was going through a few years back the list of organisations against it were all the showing and breeding organisations. Don't see why equestrian sports would be any different. However don't bitch in a forum - if you are concerned then get campaigning.

Paula

 

[Auslander]

+1. I've been avoiding the threads. Reading them after being there on Thursday made me sad - it was one of the best experiences of my life, and it was a shame to see the threads focusing on the actions of a few, rather than celebrating the great stuff.

FWIW - I didn't see tense, unhappy horses in the ring. I saw supremely fit athletes, bursting at the seams to get on with the job. Every horse was BTV at some point, including the two Iberians. The atmosphere is electric there, and I'm not surprised that horses were a bit tense. Should also be borne in mind that to perform at this level, there needs to be a degree of muscular tension - it's not physically possible to carry out these movements without it. Look at human athletes expressions and musculature as they go for the finish line - they're not very relaxed either!

 

[cptrayes]

Flighty horse in very tense atmosphere gets overbent and short inthe neck , there's a surprise.

Flighty horse in very tense atmosphere gets overbent and short inthe neck , and STILL scores well over 80% there's a surprise.

 

[Goldenstar]

Flighty horse in very tense atmosphere gets overbent and short inthe neck , and STILL scores well over 80% there's a surprise.

That's the interesting thing to learn how they decide the marks so If every movement starts as a ten , excellent ,and you work back to good because some BTV was shown so the rest of what the horse showed made the movement worthy of an eight or whatever despite the BTV.
It's also excellent not perfect a ten .

 

[cptrayes]

But the rulebook is clear that overbending is a serious fault and that the highest point of the horse's neck should be the poll. It is not being marked as a serious fault any more, so these horses trained in rollkur or naturally overbent are scoring much higher than horses which are slightly too much in front of the verticle. While that marking continues, so will hyperflexion of horses.

They either need to change the rulebook, or score according to the rulebook, or this kind of argument after every major competition is never going to end.

 

[BeesKnees]

Of course. However excess tension that blocks the swing of the back is considered a fault in Dressage. That's why it matters.

OP, I agree. I think sometimes in this country we are too quick to focus on the negative, rather than just celebrate the success. Its part of our slightly cynical nature I think and the wish to avoid the gushy, OTT, irony-free reactions you get from some countries, which us Brits see as a bit vulgar

 

[cptrayes]

Should also be borne in mind that to perform at this level, there needs to be a degree of muscular tension - it's not physically possible to carry out these movements without it. Look at human athletes expressions and musculature as they go for the finish line - they're not very relaxed either!

My problem is that the human athletes choose to train to excess for their sport*, and the horses don't get the choice. The numbers that break down before they get to 10 are shocking.



* recent research suggests that most of them already have damaged heart tissue.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am also not sure how you keep the poll as the highest point of the neck when you have a huge crest .

 

[Auslander]

Of course. However excess tension that blocks the swing of the back is considered a fault in Dressage. That's why it matters.

I'm aware of that - thanks ;-)

 

[Auslander]

My problem is that the human athletes choose to train to excess for their sport*, and the horses don't get the choice. The numbers that break down before they get to 10 are shocking.

Fair comment! My horse is testament to that!!

 

[Goldenstar]

It's not not possible to stand without musclar tension but lets not get mixed up up its mental tension showing In the work we are discussing here.

 

[cptrayes]

Fair comment! My horse is testament to that!!

I am green eyed with jealousy that you were actually there

 

[Auslander]

I am green eyed with jealousy that you were actually there

Still can't quite believe I was! Best friend got tickets the night before - early 40th birthday present!! Fantastic fantastic day!

 

[Auslander]

It's not not possible to stand without musclar tension but lets not get mixed up up in mental tension showing In the work we are discussing here.

Agree - my point (badly made!) was that some posters on the rollkur threads seem to confuse muscular tension with mental tension.

 

[zefragile]

I was a bit taken aback by the extremely negative freestyle thread and the comments made about the judges.

 

[M_G]

Still can't quite believe I was! Best friend got tickets the night before - early 40th birthday present!! Fantastic fantastic day!

I too am very jealous... Who would have thought Dressage could be so blooming exciting and tear/hayfever inducing... I was sat in work crying my eyes out at what I can only describe as the most beautiful Freestyle test I have ever seen (yes music was very emotive)

 

[skewbaldpony]

once again, just to clarify, the point of my OP was *not* to take issue with anyone criticising the judges, or the hyperflexion, or the result .. in my book, that's what a discussion forum is for.
What I thought I saw start to happen - and I'm going to use a made up examples because I don't want to point the finger, it wasn't a single individual - was for threads to go from 'weren't the flowers pretty?' to 'those pretty flowers hide abuse - petition the FEI now' and 'was that the chimes of big ben?' to 'yes, and the bell tolls for the FEI - petition them now'.
It's sailing close to spam. I'm absolutely happy to discuss the rights and wrongs of the judging, the ways of going, the competitors and even the flowers if you will till the cows come home.

 

[Goldenstar]

I don't think it matters how the FEI handle the whole working in issue the most vocal of its detractors will never be happy.
Recently I have seen all sorts of things being described as rolkur .
Light is the best disinfectant .The FEI should remember that.
The funniest comment was the RPSCA should take an interest I was just imagining some poor inspector trying to untangle the complexities of dressage training.

 

[BeesKnees]

I'm aware of that - thanks ;-)

So no need to state the bloomin obvious about muscular tension then

 

[Auslander]

So no need to state the bloomin obvious about muscular tension then

It may be obvious to you, but not to everyone perhaps. Seems that the majority seem to think that any signs that the horse is not ambling along in happy hacker mode means that it is being tortured.

 

[JFTDWS]

I've fetch my tin hat to join you as I agree
I normally enjoy the commentary threads but the dressage threads kept getting mobbed by people bitching about hyper flexion

During the commentary, I don't think there was much bitching about rollkur - I know I comments on finding a number of the tests unpleasant viewing, but there was a lot of positive commentary too, and a great deal of unbiased fact stating in there too.

 

[skewbaldpony]

It may be obvious to you, but not to everyone perhaps. Seems that the majority seem to think that any signs that the horse is not ambling along in happy hacker mode means that it is being tortured.

I think that may be a teensy little bit patronising.

I wouldn't exactly describe Valegro as being in happy hacker mode, though happier than Parsifal (who I just can't spell as I get my languages fandangled so apologies to him) (though he probably can't spell himself either, to be fair) by a country mile.

I also wouldn't describe Parsifal as being tortured. At least not while in the arena

Valegro went forward with joy, and Charlotte rode lightly and with sympathy. Parsifal looked uncomfortable, tight in his jaw and neck, over bent and over ridden. In my opinion. I am not an international judge, but neither am I a passing numpty.

Not a dignified way to hold a discussion.

 

[Auslander]

I think that may be a teensy little bit patronising.

I wouldn't exactly describe Valegro as being in happy hacker mode, though happier than Parsifal (who I just can't spell as I get my languages fandangled so apologies to him) (though he probably can't spell himself either, to be fair) by a country mile.

I also wouldn't describe Parsifal as being tortured. At least not while in the arena

Valegro went forward with joy, and Charlotte rode lightly and with sympathy. Parsifal looked uncomfortable, tight in his jaw and neck, over bent and over ridden. In my opinion. I am not an international judge, but neither am I a passing numpty.

Not a dignified way to hold a discussion.

I probably was - but it was a knee jerk reaction to someone else, who was equally patronising!

At no time, and in no way did I refer to anything you had said (I was in agreement with your post btw). I'm sorry though - I'm really fed up that I had a lovely day on Thursday, but that it's being tarnished by the amount of negative publicity about a few riders. All I've been reading is snarky remarks about how cruelly dressage horses are being treated, and how badly the top riders ride them.

I'm not even having a go about this forum - it's not just on here, but all over the flamin internet!! I know I don't have to read it, but I can't help myself.

I know Parsival was tight through his neck and not working through from behind - but tbh, from where I was sitting, he looked strong, a bit argumentative and trying to run through the bridle. I'm aware of her reputation, and I think its very sad that she trains in this way - ditto PK, but I didn't see a horse that was being bullied into submission on Thursday, I saw one with a bit of a glint in his eye, who was only a few steps away from boiling over - which would account for at least some of the tension!

I guess what I am trying to say (badly) is that I feel that the slightest signs of tension/tightness were immediately jumped upon as horses being forced, rather than people thinking "Oops - another one a bit psyched by the atmosphere/the pressure/rider nerves/etc - but that's hardly surprising". Just feel like dressage as a sport got a bit of a pasting, which is not necessarily deserved

 

[angelish]

..perhaps because they feel passionate about it? It's not bitching.

It's easily done, ignore the comments you don't want to see, that's what I do if I'm not wanting to partake in a discussion and stick to whatever it is you are talking about.

there is nothing wrong with being passionate about it ,its a very passionate subject that will always provoke some heated debate
but on a couple of occasions it did seem to turn into play ground bitching on (in my opinion) and yes i did simply ignore the comments i didn't want to see and swiftly left the thread

i commented on this thread because i could see what the op meant ,it was a real shame for every dressage thread to turn into a debate about it