i don't know!

[E13]

Totally ignorant here I have never encountered hunting in my life - don't know anyone who's done it, the closest I've been is seeing the hunt passing by a couple of times. Having no interest and being young at the time, I didn't follow the news about the ban - so would anyone like to enlighten me? If hunting was banned, how are people still hunting - presumably following some form of rules or restrictions? Are there different 'types' - eg drag hunting? Is there often a kill? I'm neither for or against, I don't like the idea of hunting an animal for sport, but I'm fine with doing it for food, and I've heard a little about the necessity of keeping the fox population down... And I believe the horses enjoy it. Basically I'd like to be more informed

 

[happyhunter123]

Totally ignorant here I have never encountered hunting in my life - don't know anyone who's done it, the closest I've been is seeing the hunt passing by a couple of times. Having no interest and being young at the time, I didn't follow the news about the ban - so would anyone like to enlighten me? If hunting was banned, how are people still hunting - presumably following some form of rules or restrictions? Are there different 'types' - eg drag hunting? Is there often a kill? I'm neither for or against, I don't like the idea of hunting an animal for sport, but I'm fine with doing it for food, and I've heard a little about the necessity of keeping the fox population down... And I believe the horses enjoy it. Basically I'd like to be more informed

Hello. Since February 2005, hunts are supposed to be trail hunting-that is following a fox based scent laid in a manner similar to that which a hunted animal would follow. Also, some packs now flush to guns, or to a bird of prey. It is important, if hunting is to survive to continue to provide a pest control service to our farmers. There is no reason why all farmers would welcome 40+ horses damaging their land if there is no perceived benefit for them.

Beagle packs now hunt rabbits or trails, minkhound packs hunt rats (which is terribly boring), flush to guns or lay trails along banks. Staghound packs flush to guns.



As for justification for hunting, there are several arguments in favour for traditional quarry hunting. Firstly, it provides a degree of control (25,000 foxes were killed per year pre-ban) in a relatively humane fashion (I don't think what we do now, flushing to guns, is nearly as humane). On a local level, particularly in cub-hunting it can be very effective in removing a decent proportion of the population.
It also, and this is often forgotten, disperses foxes from areas in which they are at a high density. Where there are many foxes, there is less food to share and therefore they are more likely to eat your lambs! The hounds will chase the foxes out of such areas. I can imagine that this is good for species too as it increases diversity within the gene pool.
In addition to controlling populations of the quarry species, it can also preserve them. That sounds, ridiculous, I know but it is true. Farmers believe that if they have the hunt on their land, they do not need to control foxes on their land to the same extent. In many areas, complete fox eradication could be achieved. It is not in the interests of hunting for there to be complete eradication of the quarry species, nor is it in the interests of hunting for the population to be too high (hounds will change quarry to often, and of course we acknowledge the damage these animals can do ). Hunting maintains the population at a fairly stable level.

Hunting eliminates unhealthy members of the population easily. I'm not saying all healthy hunted animals survive-they certainly don't-but they have a better chance than those that are weak, old, sick or injured which are easily caught. This results in a healthier overall population.

The quarry was caught fairly often, about 1 in three finds resulted in a kill. The mechanics of the kill, it is important to stress is not part of the enjoyment of hunting, no matter what our opponents will tell you. A kill was a mark of good hunt, and it was the hounds' reward for their hard work. A good pack catches foxes. In the many hundreds of times I have hunted, I, (and most people) have not seen the kill up close. It normally happens under a bush! It is quick, I can vouch for that though. I would say death occurs within less than ten seconds in most cases.

There are several other reasons 'for' hunting, but this post is really too long (sorry) and I won't mention them now. Hope this helps!

 

[E13]

Thank you, that was really interesting. A lot of your 'for' points make sense. I had a conversation with someone the other day, and they admitted they didn't know very much but raised the point of cruelty towards the fox, ie the terror of being chased, and then being killed by hounds (though I would have thought it would be a quick end, but I agree that it would be traumatic). What is the viewpoint on that issue? I've heard people say that it's a sport (and I agree in the sense that I am against killing for sport, I find it unnecessary and a different issue to killing for food), but obviously there is the argument that the fox population needs to be kept down, I believe this is a big problem? Which would mean that hunting serves a purpose - I have heard people cite other options like shooting, but I remember being told that often the shot is inaccurate, causing a slow and painful death. I don't know much so any replies would be appreciated

 

[combat_claire]

minkhound packs hunt rats (which is terribly boring),

Oi I heard that!!!

 

[combat_claire]

Just a couple of things to add to Happy Hunter's post.

Hunting is the only method of controlling pest species where there can be no outcome of wounding. A hunted animal either gets clean away or is dispatched quickly. Again having seen several kills first hand pre-ban I can second that they are very quick. The antis like to show photographs of a torn apart corpse but in reality the quarry is long dead before the pack breaks up the carcass. With lamping or other forms of control there is no cast iron guarantee that the animal will be killed outright.

Hunting also makes sure that the weaker/older/sicker animals that are the most likely to seek an easy meal from livestock or game birds. The reason that the herd of wild red deer in west country is so well is because of a defined management programme overseen by the packs of stag hounds and their appointed harbourers who select a stag to be hunted - he can be old and about to interbreed with his daughters, sick or injured.

There are so many anomalies in the Hunting Act - why is it okay to hunt rats and rabbits but not other species? Why are non-native mink protected by the Act when they cause untold damage to our waterways?

For me the cruellest aspect of the Hunting Act is the fact that using a full pack to search for wounded deer is not exempt. The stag hound packs in the West Country run an excellent 24 hour deer casualty service where hunt staff will go out at any hour to locate a deer that has been hit by a vehicle. Previously they could use the full pack to quickly find the casualty and dispatch it with one shot. Now they can only use 2 hounds, which takes far longer on the expanse of woods and moorland.

There are also huge economic benefits - hunting people spend a small fortune on livery, clothing and tack locally. They also like to go visiting which has a positive impact on local accommodation, pubs, hireling yards etc. All at times outside of the main tourist season. I don't want to think about how much I spent in the pub in Exford last week *blush*

 

[happyhunter123]

They admitted they didn't know very much but raised the point of cruelty towards the fox, ie the terror of being chased, and then being killed by hounds

If you have seen an animal being hunted, I think it would be fair to say that it probably isn't terrified, or at least not until the closing moments of the hunt. From my own observations, the quarry is nearly always 5 minutes or so away from the pack. Remember that hounds hunt by scent-the animal doesn't need to be near to be hunted. 5 minutes away is nearly always out of sight of the pack. People say that the animal doesn't know it is being hunted, and to much of an extent I believe them. It moves away from the noise of the hounds and the people, just as it moves away from disturbance every day in its life. The quarry will stop every now and again. I have need a hunted hare stop, lick herself and have a nibble of grass.
In addition, the fact that the quarry can be 'headed' I believe to be another sign that it is not in terror during the hunt. The animal is headed when it meets a person, car or other 'scary' thing while being hunted. It stops producing scent, and is often lost by the hounds. Why? Because it is frightened, and not producing scent is a useful survival strategy. If it was in a state of terror while being hunted, I don't believe it would produce a scent.
I don't deny that the last minutes are probably scary for the fox, but death comes quickly. I doubt it feels much if any pain. The effects of adrenaline probably null any pain experienced while being caught, as you will know if you've ever had a bad accident.

As for shooting-shooting is an important management strategy in fox control. The hunt cannot be relied on to catch every fox for a farmer. Hunting reduces the population somewhat and keeps it healthy, it does not destroy the whole population. Shooting exterminates and does nothing more. Shooting can sometimes inflict horrific injury, and sometimes be very quick and clean. Hunting can be effective in 'mopping up' injured foxes where shooting takes place. On a local scale, hunting can remove large proportions of the fox population. This is, no doubt beneficial to farmers.

Hunting is a sport, the riding and following aspects and the chase are enjoyable. I have given this matter a fair bit of thought, as I'm sure many hunting people have. But in my opinion, it is a justifiable sport and I have no moral qualms about supporting or being involved with it.