I feel sorry for horses.

I sense almost a sense of fear developing within the horse world, from grass roots upwards. Having ridden for 65 years I really don't remember such an undercurrent, is it because we know more 'techincal stuff' I wonder?

We don't doubt the high level of horsemanship and horsemastership which many grew up with, it was the best that everyone knew at the time, or so I believed.

I'm almost grateful that I no longer have the responsibility!
 
ramsaybailey said:
I totally agree with the OP. I'm struggling to justify getting on a horse at the moment.
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My feelings about riding have really changed. I'm not sure if its because my 2 are now aged, 1 29yo ( retired for 10 years) and 1 19yo ex NH. I've done everything, eventing, showing etc, with my tb over the 8 years I've owned him. Nothing horrendously strenuous, but a fair bit of dressage. I retired him from dressage last year as he was still sound and I was very conscious of his early career. I wanted him sound for as long as possible. I'm still riding him a few times a week in walk to keep him supple, just hacking out. I feel that I really don't want to do anymore. Not sure if I would still feel the same if I had a younger more capable horse. I just see horses trotting round with their heads in and now just feel sad.
 
I get what you mean. I think exposure to the issue of high profile cases has helped though. And we should carrying on calling it out at every level.

The same could be said for any domesticated animal.

For the most part, I think/believe people do right by their animals. All we can do is surround ourselves with people who demonstrate good horsemanship, carry on learning and educating ourselves and our children.

I certainly don’t feel sorry for mine. They are our world.
 
Caski said:
I sense almost a sense of fear developing within the horse world, from grass roots upwards. Having ridden for 65 years I really don't remember such an undercurrent, is it because we know more 'techincal stuff' I wonder?

We don't doubt the high level of horsemanship and horsemastership which many grew up with, it was the best that everyone knew at the time, or so I believed.

I'm almost grateful that I no longer have the responsibility!
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A fear of what, do you think?
 
No, I don't feel sorry for mine either. They live the life of riley in a big field with minimal work (and "work" always = "varied hacking in groups"), medical care on tap, buddies, and always something to eat.

I'm increasingly unsure though, whether high level horse competition is a good idea. Make something competitive and it seems to bring out the worst in a lot of humans. And the higher the stakes the worse the compromises. But you can't make blanket generalisations though can you - lots of high level competition horses really do live well.
 
I do actually see a lot of horses I feel sorry for tbh. Not a single horse in the world asked to be born an animal that needed a use to justify being taken care of, when we don't allow them to take care of themselves either. On the other side, no human asked to be born into the world either and we are born slaves to capitalism, having to earn a home and safety by providing labour for the machine. Plenty of people have a shit life and plenty of horses have a shit life. I think the most depressing issue I have day to day is people saying that they love horses, they love their horse while not actually caring about the horse as something or someone with feelings and who also only has one life to live on this rapidly decaying earth. They don't want to communicate, they never want to hear no, they especially don't want to be told they could do better. The hypocrisy is hard to tolerate.
 
smolmaus said:
I think the most depressing issue I have day to day is people saying that they love horses, they love their horse while not actually caring about the horse as something or someone with feelings and who also only has one life to live on this rapidly decaying earth. They don't want to communicate, they never want to hear no, they especially don't want to be told they could do better. The hypocrisy is hard to tolerate.
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I know what you mean about hypocrisy but I think also you raise the age old point that love (and even money) isn't enough. You also need the basic knowledge and the setup to meet a horse's key needs.
 
smolmaus said:
A fear of what, do you think?
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TBH I think that there is a possibility of equestrian activity becoming somewhat taboo!

Mr and Mrs person in the street currently seem to be only fed the low points, the scandalous, the sad and in some circles the 'sport for the rich' misconception. Without bringing in people to the equestrian world we are almost allowing it to be lost, the loss of tv coverage is one factor I would blame!

Aaargh!
 
Life is difficult on all creatures. Wild animals have different challenges but their lives are not without struggle and suffering either. All living things suffer - it's a part of being alive. I don't think that means we shouldn't go out of our way to prevent being the cause of that suffering, but I also think that taking on a weight of guilt for all the suffering of life isn't reasonable or constructive either.

Wild horses freeze to death, die of dehydration or starvation, are eaten by predators, suffer painful untreated injuries, kill each other and each others young in territory or resource fights. Their struggles might be different to horses which are bored, overfed, too warm in rugs, kept alive through veterinary interventions or absence of predators longer than they perhaps should be, are subjected to being ridden, and suffer pain and discomfort as a consequence of participating in sport. And yes, there are extremes of human abuse of animals (and other humans) where there is deliberate or negligent cruelty. But that is generally pushed back against by the majority of humans - it's not accepted as normal.

There isn't an existence for any horse - or any creature - which doesn't involve some kind of struggle. Are domesticated horses worse off than wild horses? I don't believe that's necessarily the case.

Of course, we could say that horses shouldn't exist then, as they are really only bred by humans and if keeping them domestically is wrong then there really are very few instances of truly wild horses in the world today. But then do we destroy them all? Is that any less cruel?

Or we could say that domesticated horses should never suffer but that's another impossibility. To say that nothing should ever suffer, is to say that nothing should live. Everything suffers in some way. Humans do tend to acknowledge a threshold for acceptable suffering for horses, and we will euthanize animals where that threshold is met. If we said that no suffering was acceptable, we'd just be euthanizing everything at birth.

Perhaps there is an argument to say that the threshold for the acceptable level of discomfort that an animal should endure is what needs looking at, and I think that's a more constructive line of thinking.

But to regret the treatment of the entire species doesn't make much sense to me.
 
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Caski said:
I sense almost a sense of fear developing within the horse world, from grass roots upwards. Having ridden for 65 years I really don't remember such an undercurrent, is it because we know more 'techincal stuff' I wonder?

We don't doubt the high level of horsemanship and horsemastership which many grew up with, it was the best that everyone knew at the time, or so I believed.

I'm almost grateful that I no longer have the responsibility!
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I think you're right - the more we learn about how riding and working horses (even with the best intentions) can very often be physically or mentally detrimental (whether we want to admit it or not) the more there (should be) a sense of worry about what we're doing with them. I've just been looking at Robert Cook's final article on the effects of bitting and it doesn't make pretty reading. Because horses are so compliant it's much too easy to assume they don't mind, or enjoy what they're doing with us, or are not impacted by it. I don't think that's an assumption we should make any more, even if that makes us uncomfortable.

I enjoyed having retired ponies and would love more if my health ever allowed it, because I have a bit of land and can give a few small ponies a fairly fulfilling life - but I don't think I'd want the responsibility of ridden horses again - for one thing, I'd spend the whole time second-guessing myself.
 
I think the changes we've seen (very tiny tin hat on for this) - climate change, pollution, deterioration in soils has made things more challenging for our horses. Then add in changes in training, the great new paradigm that the 90s brought along usurping most of the good old stuff, throwing baby out with bathwater, led a lot of people astray. The new methods were about athleticism and neglected the horse, but we all thought we were doing it for the good. We had fab new kit, new treatments from vets, new feeds, new tack....I have lessons and general training from 20 years ago that I feel bad about.

Then add in the scientific knowledge that has come along and that which doesn't rely on top competition training as its paradigm, so things like when growth plates close, discovery of fascia and fascial chains etc, mean we start to realise the implications of riding animals that are ill designed for it.

It's no wonder a lot of us are in mild shock.
 
I'm with Lady Gascoyne a little bit. Whenever this discussion comes up I kind of think what's the alternative? Horses as non ridden pets is not realistic for most people.

They'd end up a species in a petting zoo really or wild. Look at what happened to the heavies when they were no longer needed for ploughing. They're endangered mostly. Maybe that is what will and should happen? Although humans live longer and are way healthier with correct exercise, why not horses?

The old ex racer I used to ride was way happier and healthier when ridden than when he wasn't. Out of work he looked ancient and poor. Who knows.
 
The situation is going to get worse not better.
The world is changing we are going to be poorer and living in more crowded spaces.
Already most horses according to the RSPCA are not having their needs met.
Everywhere I go I see places where horses used to live it’s a huge issue.
It’s at least as big a problem as the issues in elite competition world .
It’s extremely depressing.
 
Burnttoast said:
On this point specifically, why is this? Is it because we're prepared to keep them in sub-optimal conditions, so it's necessary for them to be ridden to get any meaningful exercise or stimulation?
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Nope. It's because my thoughts in general someone would get a horse to ride, I don't know many who have bought horses just as a pet with no intention of getting on them. And they are very expensive to keep. So money basically. If you don't like riding but want a pet there are other much cheaper options.
 
ramsaybailey said:
But if you can afford to keep a ridden horse you can technically afford a non ridden horse?
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Clearly but also I'm guessing you understand what I am getting at, just playing devil's advocate. People setting out with the intention of buying a horse as a non ridden pet are not going to be in the majority.. even less people who wants them as pure pets are going to want to spend a lot of money on a well bred horse I'm guessing.

Back to the heavy horses example. Not many of them left now they are not used in work anymore.
 
mariew said:
Nope. It's because my thoughts in general someone would get a horse to ride, I don't know many who have bought horses just as a pet with no intention of getting on them. And they are very expensive to keep. So money basically. If you don't like riding but want a pet there are other much cheaper options.
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Of course most people get a horse to ride, but arguing that few people would get a horse for other reasons does imply that riding (not horses per se) is people's primary interest, and I think the primacy of riding is at the root of many domestic horses' problems today. It influences the tendency towards individual turnout (and the deprioritisation of turnout systems that work well for non-ridden herds), the prioritising of riding facilities over turnout and sometimes a high degree of instability in terms of owner and yard changes, and causes physical/psychological issues quite often. As far as getting a less expensive pet is considered: what if you like horses but don't like to (or can't) ride? Might you not still want them in your life? I can't actually look after them anymore but I'd love a couple of ponies in my field. It seems contrary to argue (in general) that horses are only for riding, if it might put off people who just want them as pets and intend to try to give them a good life - look at the derision sometimes heaped on people who don't ride their horses, intimating that they're scared or over-horsed, etc. Why should that matter, if the horses are secure and living a decent life? But I bet it puts some people off the idea of horses as pets.
 
Why would being a pet automatically be better for a horse's welfare than being a ridden animal?

Pet horses don't automatically mean happy horses. Horses have been bred to be used by humans for 5000 years. Selective breeding has an effect on biology.

I was going to say 'it's not a goldfish' but frankly goldfish are in a worse situation.
 
Given the amount of time, experience (50 years +) but not afraid to take on board new research/ideas, care, money that we OAPS could do with but our dogs & ponies always come before our own needs, I truly feel our boys have a lovely life. 24/7 happy herd turnout, ridden or driven work to their level of fitness and age, vet, farrier, saddle checks - the list goes on, and that is as it should be.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Life is difficult on all creatures. Wild animals have different challenges but their lives are not without struggle and suffering either. All living things suffer - it's a part of being alive. I don't think that means we shouldn't go out of our way to prevent being the cause of that suffering, but I also think that taking on a weight of guilt for all the suffering of life isn't reasonable or constructive either.

Wild horses freeze to death, die of dehydration or starvation, are eaten by predators, suffer painful untreated injuries, kill each other and each others young in territory or resource fights. Their struggles might be different to horses which are bored, overfed, too warm in rugs, kept alive through veterinary interventions or absence of predators longer than they perhaps should be, are subjected to being ridden, and suffer pain and discomfort as a consequence of participating in sport. And yes, there are extremes of human abuse of animals (and other humans) where there is deliberate or negligent cruelty. But that is generally pushed back against by the majority of humans - it's not accepted as normal.

There isn't an existence for any horse - or any creature - which doesn't involve some kind of struggle. Are domesticated horses worse off than wild horses? I don't believe that's necessarily the case.

Of course, we could say that horses shouldn't exist then, as they are really only bred by humans and if keeping them domestically is wrong then there really are very few instances of truly wild horses in the world today. But then do we destroy them all? Is that any less cruel?

Or we could say that domesticated horses should never suffer but that's another impossibility. To say that nothing should ever suffer, is to say that nothing should live. Everything suffers in some way. Humans do tend to acknowledge a threshold for acceptable suffering for horses, and we will euthanize animals where that threshold is met. If we said that no suffering was acceptable, we'd just be euthanizing everything at birth.

Perhaps there is an argument to say that the threshold for the acceptable level of discomfort that an animal should endure is what needs looking at, and I think that's a more constructive line of thinking.

But to regret the treatment of the entire species doesn't make much sense to me.
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Well said, the voice of common sense.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Why would being a pet automatically be better for a horse's welfare than being a ridden animal?

Pet horses don't automatically mean happy horses. Horses have been bred to be used by humans for 5000 years. Selective breeding has an effect on biology.

I was going to say 'it's not a goldfish' but frankly goldfish are in a worse situation.
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Horses are not physically sufficiently different from their wild progenitors to make riding something they are well-designed for, all the same.
 
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