I hate having a livery yard :(

[skint1]

Mrs Elle, I am glad you have found a solution, hope it works out for you.
I didn't realise that so many people who own land/stables hate having liveries, as a livery myself it's kind of depressing, and scary. Mind I am lucky, my YO is a farmer- would hate to move to a small private yard and then find out the YO didn't really want me there and was waiting for me to transgress so they could chuck my horses out at will.

 

[fatpiggy]

There is an update.....

I waited until the livery had come home to inform her that I would be putting my horses in 'her' field. She wasn't overly impressed, but couldn't say much. I told her she could use another field if she wished to turn out her horses, but she rarely does so that isn't a huge issue. I also offered her another stable (much too small for mine, but ok for hers) as one of her stables had water in the front as the yard was flooding. She said she couldn't move as hers are colts/stallions.

She then told me that she was withholding rent for one stable due to to the flooding.

She will be getting notice.

All problems solved!

I'm glad you have sorted things out. TBH I would have chucked the liveries as soon as you moved in, then re-let some of the stables once you had worked everything out.

As to the livery witholding their rent because of the flooding, I actually have a modicum of sympathy for them . My wooden stable had been put up on rubble which extended in front of the doors by a couple of yards. Then the owner got hold of a load of unwanted concrete and decided to lay it on top. Trouble was he didn't do a very good job and as a result water gathering on the concrete was directed towards the stables instead of away (there wasn't a proper drainage channel included) and from one end of the concrete to the other. To add to the problem, the muck heap was sited a few feet away and water running down the yard went into the muckheap and washed straw and shavings straight into the grid beside it resulting in a huge and deep flood, which also had no-where else to go - except straight towards the stables. Unfortunately for me my stable was at the lowest point in the concrete dip so I had what amounted to raw sewerage 6 inches deep in my stable and the entire bed of rather expensive aubiose which I could only get from the next county, ruined. I bought some special high-tech sandbags at enormous expense ( I couldn't handle conventional ones due to severe low back problems) and spent a great deal of time cutting channels to try to drain the future floods away, and basically bailing the stinking water away with a 2 gallon bucket but of course I couldn't exactly do that 24 hours a day so within half an hour of further rain it was just as bad as before. YO knew full well how bad it was but would only get the drain sucker out if the other stables flooded as well and no longer-term cures were put into place.. I never withheld any rent, but to say it rubbed me up the wrong way is putting it mildly. I was paying for a stable, not a paddling pool.

 

[Merlod]

Mrs Elle, I am glad you have found a solution, hope it works out for you.
I didn't realise that so many people who own land/stables hate having liveries, as a livery myself it's kind of depressing, and scary. Mind I am lucky, my YO is a farmer- would hate to move to a small private yard and then find out the YO didn't really want me there and was waiting for me to transgress so they could chuck my horses out at will.

I made a post a while ago about what I should charge for my basic DIY livery yard and found it quite depressing too how everyone was saying to get rid of the liveries etc. I have run this yard for four years, I jumped at the chance to buy it last year. I love my liveries and their horses, it wouldn't be the same being alone with empty stables going to waste! Not all YO's hate their liveries

 

[Meowy Catkin]

That's good to hear Merlod. I used to be on DIY livery and I really hope that I didn't make my YO miserable while I was there.

 

[sarahann1]

I made a post a while ago about what I should charge for my basic DIY livery yard and found it quite depressing too how everyone was saying to get rid of the liveries etc. I have run this yard for four years, I jumped at the chance to buy it last year. I love my liveries and their horses, it wouldn't be the same being alone with empty stables going to waste! Not all YO's hate their liveries

I've been reading this from the start, glad you've got a solution OP

I'm another one though, who's thoroughly depressed at the livery bashing. I have mine on livery and having worked on a livery yard, I fully appreciate what I get and how lucky I am to be at a lovely yard. I'm tidy, I often end up sweeping up after others because it annoys me the mess has been left, I'm careful with equipment, mindful of wasting straw/hay and follow the rules. If I have an issue I make sure I have a face to face conversation with the YOs rather than simply moaning about it.

Not all liveries are henious creatures

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

I'm another one though, who's thoroughly depressed at the livery bashing. I have mine on livery and having worked on a livery yard, I fully appreciate what I get and how lucky I am to be at a lovely yard. I'm tidy, I often end up sweeping up after others because it annoys me the mess has been left, I'm careful with equipment, mindful of wasting straw/hay and follow the rules. If I have an issue I make sure I have a face to face conversation with the YOs rather than simply moaning about it.

Not all liveries are henious creatures

Were you closer, then I may be prepared to revue the no-livery rule here, and just for you! Of course there are inconsiderate and ungrateful liveries, and just as there are those livery-suppliers who can be equally obnoxious. In my experience, your thoughtful approach to the question of 'tenancy' isn't the norm, but with your approach I suspect that most decent YOs would welcome you with open arms!

Alec.

 

[saddlesore]

I made a post a while ago about what I should charge for my basic DIY livery yard and found it quite depressing too how everyone was saying to get rid of the liveries etc. I have run this yard for four years, I jumped at the chance to buy it last year. I love my liveries and their horses, it wouldn't be the same being alone with empty stables going to waste! Not all YO's hate their liveries

That's good to know! I've been a livery for nearly 25 years and this thread has depressed the life out of me!

 

[Annagain]

That's good to know! I've been a livery for nearly 25 years and this thread has depressed the life out of me!

It's not depressed me, but the livery bashing does disappoint me. I've been at a lovely yard for the last 12 years and really appreciate what I've got as do the other liveries. In return we all act like responsible adults, take it in turns to sweep the yard, keep things tidy and pay on time. I think both sides get a good deal to be honest.

YO and her husband both work part time and run the yard and the small farm it's on part time between them. They would be the first to say neither of their working hours add up to full time. Yard is all DIY so I mean maintenance etc rather than services. They inherited the farm so no mortgage. Last year they decided to sell the farm but the more they looked into it, the more they realised even with the farm selling for twice the sort of house they wanted to buy, the surplus would soon be gone if they continued to both work part-time. They decided they would rather run the farm/yard than work full time in their other jobs so it can't all be bad!

I'm thrilled that they did of course as I dreaded the thought of having to move or have a new YO.

 

[FlashyP]

I am often baffled by how the horse industry in general works, livery in particular The attitude is bizarrely different from most other service industry's! I'm on a fantastic DIY yard now and feel incredibly grateful due to previous experiences and anecdotes from horsey friends. I try to be the best livery I can be, keeping things tidy, being considerate, etc. However, I have found it is common for liveries on some yards to be given the impression that YO's are doing them a favour by letting them keep their horse on their property and letting them pay for the pleasure! Surely it is not the livery's fault if livery is 'too cheap', that is just bad business sense from the YOs! Charge what you need to to cover costs (including maintenance) and to make a profit. A well run DIY yard, with decent facilities and maintenance, and keeping to their side of the contract can charge a pretty reasonable amount and still be in demand. Of course, liveries have to abide by their side of the contract, if they don't the YO has every right to give them notice to leave, but YOs do have to manage their yards and nip problems in the bud early.

I appreciate the OP is in a situation not entirely planned and the situation may be resolving, but I don't understand why the livery should pay for a flooded stable! Most people are reasonable and do understand that these things happen, but something like that should be resolved within a few days, if not then I can't see why they should pay for it! I don't think many people would pay for a room in a hotel with a soaking wet bed To have your own place with land, stables and buildings you can't even remember you own (!), is a total fantasy for thousands of us and for most of us it is unlikely to ever come true, no matter how hard we work and save. I'd be counting my blessings everyday if I was in your position! At the moment, I'd be thinking longterm, if I really didn't want them there, I ask them to move in the spring, winter is a crap time to move yards and especially around xmas/new year! What's a few months in the grand scheme of things, you have years to enjoy your lovely place once they have gone and it's a bit kinder and more compassionate; they haven't chosen to be in this situation either.

 

[willhegofirst]

I have been a livery for well over 30 years, 20 of which was on the same yard, and as I mentioned before I do feel for the OP and her situation. I would like to think I have not often, it ever been a pain of a livery, but have been around long enough to know that like in any walk of life there are the good the bad and the down right ugly. I am glad the OP seems to have found a solution to her problem as I sure if she had not things would have festered between her and her liveries, resentment does tend to grow in these situations.

 

[MrsElle]

....... but I don't understand why the livery should pay for a flooded stable!

I did offer the use of another nice and dry stable. The offer was refused

I am in no way livery bashing. I love my other liveries, they are a great bunch even though they drive me mad sometimes! However, I am able to communicate verbally with them, I have a moan, they have a moan, then we all eat chocolate and have laugh about it all!

I feel sorry for the livery I have given notice to. I tried to speak to her today, but she wasn't listening. I was willing to sit down and talk about the issues and try to find a way forward, but she isn't interested. I understand she is angry and upset, but she has to look at things from the point of view of others sometimes. The door is open for her to come and see me and resolve the issues, but I don't think she will take me up on the offer.

I hate seeing people upset, but communication has broken down

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Am I missing something? Liveries are paying customers. I'm not aware of any other business that slags off it customers quite so much. If you don't want people invading your home then don't livery. And as for paying full whack for a flooded stable, I don't blame the livery for with holding the fee. My YO gets a nice income from liveries without doing much at all, on land that would otherwise be empty. I'm not surprised your livery is cross with you. Your land, your decision but don't be surprised when liveries get the hump because you've suddenly changed your mind about providing a service.

 

[MrsElle]

Am I missing something? Liveries are paying customers. I'm not aware of any other business that slags off it customers quite so much. If you don't want people invading your home then don't livery. And as for paying full whack for a flooded stable, I don't blame the livery for with holding the fee. My YO gets a nice income from liveries without doing much at all, on land that would otherwise be empty. I'm not surprised your livery is cross with you. Your land, your decision but don't be surprised when liveries get the hump because you've suddenly changed your mind about providing a service.

I'm glad your YO gets a nice income from liveries. I don't. I do it because I used to be a livery and struggled to find somewhere to keep my horses.

I have only just taken the yard on, and while it is currently in need of a fair bit of TLC, it is a project I am embarking on. Fencing will be replaced, auto waterers will be put in fields, the fields will be sprayed in spring. All this is at great cost to me, and when I look at the income and expected expenditure, I will probably be on a loss next year.

The stable flooding issue has only come about due to ridiculously large amounts of rain - a whole months worth in 48 hours. It's not as if it happens every week, or even every month, and the livery was offered another dry stable to use, but chose not to.

I love my other liveries, I love providing a service for them that I would be greatfull for if the boot was on the other foot. The other liveries are more than happy with the service I provide and love it here, and I, in return, love having them here.

Yes, liveries are paying customers, but the service they receive on a small yard way above what they pay for. I basically work for nothing, yes, my choice, but people like you spoil if for others when yards close down to due the hassle.

Sorry if my post is a bit snippy, I am feeling very sad that things have come to an end with my livery the way it has.

 

[honetpot]

Am I missing something? Liveries are paying customers. I'm not aware of any other business that slags off it customers quite so much. If you don't want people invading your home then don't livery. And as for paying full whack for a flooded stable, I don't blame the livery for with holding the fee. My YO gets a nice income from liveries without doing much at all, on land that would otherwise be empty. I'm not surprised your livery is cross with you. Your land, your decision but don't be surprised when liveries get the hump because you've suddenly changed your mind about providing a service.

I think now one would object to paying customers asking for the service they paid for, but in reality most people are not paying customers they are subsidised customers.
Land is 5-10k an acre, a stable costs £1500, then you have the concrete, drainage, rates and insurance. The last livery I had I ended up £400 out of pocket and that does not include the livery money not paid, and I thought I was careful.
The best story I had was the lady with who had two ponies, who had to find somewhere closer to where she lived, with a very long back story. My husband spent his weekends putting up stables for her, we moved fences and tried to sort out everything so it worked for her. The day before she was supposed to move in she sent a text to say she had them put down because she could not cope with the stress. I saw her in the local supermarket and she walked straight past me.
I have been a livery and in thirty years I have only been four yards, mostly moved because we moved house. The amount of stealing, nastiness I have witnessed have been unbelievable. I have also met some lovely people, and we have had some laughs, but the bonkers ones far outnumber the sane.

 

[FlashyP]

I think now one would object to paying customers asking for the service they paid for, but in reality most people are not paying customers they are subsidised customers.

This is quite a good illustration of the odd attitude in the horse industry. Liveries are paying to rent the land/stable not to buy them! They have the use of those facilities while they continue to pay the rent, they will never own them. It's the same as any other rental business, be it house rental, car rental, office space rental, etc, etc. The yard owner will always have the capital expense, but will always own the property.

 

[charlie76]

I run a livery yard, I really like the people I have and we all get along really well.
I don't make any money from it by the time I have paid for everything and everyone.
Of course they some times do things that annoy me , that's life! But I would never come on a forum and start complaining and moaning about them in the same way I don't expect them to do that about me.
If we have issues, we communicate and they are resolved.
I do have the pick of the paddocks as its my yard but at the same time I maintain theirs to the same standard . I just have the slightly closer ones as I want mine to hand to ride.
I really don't think ' talking' about your customers on here is the right way to go about things and could leave a really bad feeling.

 

[YorksG]

I think now one would object to paying customers asking for the service they paid for, but in reality most people are not paying customers they are subsidised customers.

This is quite a good illustration of the odd attitude in the horse industry. Liveries are paying to rent the land/stable not to buy them! They have the use of those facilities while they continue to pay the rent, they will never own them. It's the same as any other rental business, be it house rental, car rental, office space rental, etc, etc. The yard owner will always have the capital expense, but will always own the property.

While it is true that the analogy is similar, I have yet to find a landlord who is asked not to expect their rent that week, because the tennant has had a problem which has left them short of money. I know of no industry where the customer expects the staff to be there 24/7, for less than minimum wage. The customer should pay an economic rate for the place and maybe if more liveries demanded that, we may have a better general rate of horse care. IMO

 

[charlie76]

While it is true that the analogy is similar, I have yet to find a landlord who is asked not to expect their rent that week, because the tennant has had a problem which has left them short of money. I know of no industry where the customer expects the staff to be there 24/7, for less than minimum wage. The customer should pay an economic rate for the place and maybe if more liveries demanded that, we may have a better general rate of horse care. IMO

Oh I agree, but it will never happen! We are supposed to do it ' for the love!' Lol!

 

[ester]

Well my landlord at the very least have been warned that rent may be late- on the occasion that my employer couldn't afford to pay any of the staff. As it was they sorted themselves out in time so neither my rent, or my livery (paid to same person) was late. I also know of plenty of other instances where rent for rental properties has been paid late.

As DIY nobody expects anyone to be here, there are no staff on any wage, although the YO does manage to be surprised every winter that those of us with jobs won't be able to bring our horses in at 2pm .

 

[milliepops]

An interesting thread. Firstly I'm glad the OP seems to have a resolution.I hope things don't go too sour in the next few weeks.
I have to agree with Charlie76 though that discussing the ins & outs in detail on a public forum doesn't seem like the best plan of action :/ this could have been discussed in quite vague terms.

Re livery prices. Are YOs suggesting liveries should offer to pay more than they are being charged? Many of the posts read that way. If your prices are too low, you have to put them up yourself. People will decide whether they think your yard is worth that or not. If it's not... then you won't have any liveries, and that's not the fault of the liveries *either* if other cheaper yards are providing an acceptable service. It's just a market, surely?
And for many horse owners, price isn't everything - horses are expensive and many of us are fully accepting of that. I'll pay more for a better yard and I won't be the only one!

I have been on some lovely yards with lovely liveries. Agree with the poster that said that's within the YOs control, largely. Last one I was on vetted liveries gently to check they would fit in. anyone thought likely to be troublesome or upset the very friendly dynamic was politely refused.

 

[Possum]

The way YOs talk about it you'd think someone was holding a gun to their head forcing them to do livery...

But OP's situation I have a lot of sympathy with, I hope you managed to get it sorted with the minimum of drama, you're not responsible for the setup when you arrived and I guess it's only expected that there will be a few bumps as you get things set up as you want - it sounds like you're being more than reasonable with the notice period.

 

[honetpot]

I think now one would object to paying customers asking for the service they paid for, but in reality most people are not paying customers they are subsidised customers.

This is quite a good illustration of the odd attitude in the horse industry. Liveries are paying to rent the land/stable not to buy them! They have the use of those facilities while they continue to pay the rent, they will never own them. It's the same as any other rental business, be it house rental, car rental, office space rental, etc, etc. The yard owner will always have the capital expense, but will always own the property.

Now no body is expecting anyone to buy anything but if you are running a business it has to make a net profit, which means when you are working out your profit you include all your expenses including loan repayments. While it is doubtful if many livery yards make a net profit , people tend to focus on gross profit which is not really a true profit and that's why livery tend to be set at not a realistic level.
When you rent a house or book a hotel room you are paying for all the services, including the loans that went to buy a property, if you can not cover those loans and all the overheads you will go bust.
If I rented out a room in my house I would expect the person to cover all their costs, electric, water, tv license, council tax, including any rent or mortgage I was paying, if they did not do that their would be no reason to want to rent a room. It may be a smaller proportion than the house owner/ renter would be paying but the rent would go towards those expenses. I can not imagine anyone renting out a room and sharing their home and not expect to be better off, but that is what most liveries seem to expect.
If its a professional livery yard you should expect a profit after all expenses, if you are renting a horse space in your private residence (and this has insurance planning implications) you should expect to be no worse off.

 

[FlashyP]

Now no body is expecting anyone to buy anything but if you are running a business it has to make a net profit, which means when you are working out your profit you include all your expenses including loan repayments. While it is doubtful if many livery yards make a net profit , people tend to focus on gross profit which is not really a true profit and that's why livery tend to be set at not a realistic level.
When you rent a house or book a hotel room you are paying for all the services, including the loans that went to buy a property, if you can not cover those loans and all the overheads you will go bust.
If I rented out a room in my house I would expect the person to cover all their costs, electric, water, tv license, council tax, including any rent or mortgage I was paying, if they did not do that their would be no reason to want to rent a room. It may be a smaller proportion than the house owner/ renter would be paying but the rent would go towards those expenses. I can not imagine anyone renting out a room and sharing their home and not expect to be better off, but that is what most liveries seem to expect.
If its a professional livery yard you should expect a profit after all expenses, if you are renting a horse space in your private residence (and this has insurance planning implications) you should expect to be no worse off.

I don't quite understand the point. I don't think liveries really weigh up the ins and outs of the YO's business plan and why should they? They just want somewhere to keep their horse. If the yard is advertised at a certain price, it is not up to the livery to make sure the YO is covering their costs/making profit! If the YO isn't getting a net benefit (be that financial or just having someone to hack with or whatever they class as a benefit), then why would they be doing it? They are the ones with the property/land and therefore, they do have the upper hand in the relationship, if they do find themselves worse off after a few months, then all they have to do is give the livery/liveries the correct notice to leave and problem solved! In an ideal world all businesses would make profit and be viable, but again that is down to the YO/business manager to offer the services that are in demand and charge the price that covers their costs/gives them a profit. Similarly, if after having liveries on your private residence you are finding no net benefit or becoming worse off then give them notice to leave.

 

[FlashyP]

While it is true that the analogy is similar, I have yet to find a landlord who is asked not to expect their rent that week, because the tennant has had a problem which has left them short of money. I know of no industry where the customer expects the staff to be there 24/7, for less than minimum wage. The customer should pay an economic rate for the place and maybe if more liveries demanded that, we may have a better general rate of horse care. IMO

Why would any customer demand to pay more for something than the advertised price? That would be totally bonkers Surely the livery yard has to charge the appropriate price, not for the livery to work out what the economic rate is! And I don't know of any DIY yard that has 24/7 staff. Actually, I was one of those landlords who didn't receive their rent on a property for a few months due to the tenants 'circumstances' and me feeling sorry for them, I lost out on a few months rent, when it was obvious the rent was never going to appear I then gave them notice to leave.......which is what a YO not getting paid would do surely? Those tenants had difficult circumstances, I gave them a chance, but I couldn't afford to subsidise them indefinitely, and OK I did lose some money, but I still have the property. I don't see why a YO would keep a livery on indefinitely if they were not paying?

 

[SO1]

If you dislike having liveries that much maybe you need to consider shutting the yard and thinking of having a different business.

You will probably find if you have a good personal relationship with the liveries when things do go a bit wrong such as the flooded stable or you want them to swap fields they will be more amenable to doing so or less likely to complain. If the livery has stallions and colts and does not want to turn them out much then she probably will be reluctant to swap to a smaller stable if her horses are spending a lot of time in. From her point of view you are asking her to move to a field that is in bad condition so she will be even less inclined to turn out so her horses potentially will be spending more time in and they will have smaller stables.

If she is withholding rent due to the flooded stable it sounds like the relationship has broken down to the extent you cannot have a decent conversation about resolving the problem within a reasonable time frame and what can be done in the meantime. I would not be surprised if this livery is already looking for somewhere else. If you hate the liveries then they may all pick up on this feeling and want to try and move on anyway, I don't many people would be happy or want to be at a yard if they knew their YO hated them.

The liveries will have had a big change with the change of management and not everyone deals well with change. Did you sit down and have chat with them all when you took over regarding what you expected and what their expectations are so you all know where you stand.

Would it be financially difficult if they all left giving their one week notice and you were not able to replace them? If one person goes then sometimes their friends want to go with them if there is space at the new place or when space comes up?

I am guessing for those that do not make a profit or much profit there must be some other benefit for having a livery yard such as being able to have their own place and not having to a livery on yard where the YO hates them!

 

[concorde]

I have been a well behaved , sensible DIY livery for some years.
I pay the rate I am asked to pay , on time. It wouldn't occur to me to insist on paying more than the advertised rate. I run my own business. If I didn't make a profit I wouldn't do it.
So a serious question... Why do YO run yards if they are making a loss ?
What are the other benefits , to them , of running a yard ?

 

[charlie76]

Mine breaks even. I have mine as the standard of livery yards in the area were not good.
Over grazed paddocks, poor fencing, arenas that flood, mud, unsafe stables, smoking in hay barns, the list was endless
This way I know my horses are kept in a safe , well mainted yard with good facilities.
I also get on very well with all my liveries.

 

[wingedhorse]

I have been a well behaved , sensible DIY livery for some years.
I pay the rate I am asked to pay , on time. It wouldn't occur to me to insist on paying more than the advertised rate. I run my own business. If I didn't make a profit I wouldn't do it.
So a serious question... Why do YO run yards if they are making a loss ?
What are the other benefits , to them , of running a yard ?

Some yard owners have liveries to subsidise the cost of their own horses and the land management, rather than to make an outright profit.

For example if you have 10 stables, 15 acres, and a school. The cost of maintaining the land, and school, and facilities and running your own horses can be offset by the money coming in from liveries.

Broadly, I think if you own the land out right, it is possible to make money running livery. If you are paying a mortgage or rent, you are more likely to break even, possibly covering the costs of your own horses.

Also some people have liveries for company / turnout companions / hacking companions / to justify being able to employ freelance grooms as there are enough horses to employ someone etc.

 

[webble]

Am I missing something? Liveries are paying customers. I'm not aware of any other business that slags off it customers quite so much. If you don't want people invading your home then don't livery. And as for paying full whack for a flooded stable, I don't blame the livery for with holding the fee. My YO gets a nice income from liveries without doing much at all, on land that would otherwise be empty. I'm not surprised your livery is cross with you. Your land, your decision but don't be surprised when liveries get the hump because you've suddenly changed your mind about providing a service.

Erm have you read any of the posts from the OP? I think you are missing something

 

[milliepops]

Some yard owners have liveries to subsidise the cost of their own horses and the land management, rather than to make an outright profit.

For example if you have 10 stables, 15 acres, and a school. The cost of maintaining the land, and school, and facilities and running your own horses can be offset by the money coming in from liveries.

Broadly, I think if you own the land out right, it is possible to make money running livery. If you are paying a mortgage or rent, you are more likely to break even, possibly covering the costs of your own horses.

Also some people have liveries for company / turnout companions / hacking companions / to justify being able to employ freelance grooms as there are enough horses to employ someone etc.

This may be semantics, but if one is able to subsidise one's own horses, then the liveries must be generating profit. They might not be covering all the costs of your own horses *and more* but the liveries can't be running at a loss.

It might be that the YO has more horses than they can afford to run under current livery arrangements/prices, but that doesn't automatically mean that the yard is not covering its costs.

(this is taking the OPs discussion off at a tangent but it's interesting to find out other peoples thoughts on the matter. FWIW I'm not at livery at the moment, having the horses at home so just an interested bystander )