I have seen the promise land...

[SAMgirl]

... (well one of them!) and here it is:

Photo shamelessly stolen from their website.
This is the state stud Warendorf, and it is seriously mind blowing. It is in the middle of a town, and when you initially enter looks like some traditional prestigious university, but inside there are many delights to behold (of the four legged variety)!

I don't really know why I am posting this, but I just wanted to share the experience with other breeding enthusiasts. I feel so inspired and humbled. If anyone gets the chance to go to a place like this you really can't decline!!

I saw Ardennes, Suffolk Punches and obviously many breeds of Warmbloods all side by side – each one true to type, impressive and proud. It is one thing to see a few good horses, but to see row after row, block after block is really something else.

It is amazing what the young stallions have to go through, to become approved with their respective studbooks. It is so difficult to appreciate it when it's “just a piece of paper”, but seeing a 4yo dressage stallion go cross country one day, showjump the next – for 70 days - just to get this bit of paper really brings it home how important grading is. I can see (although don't condone) how people can get so irate about grading and “backyard breeding” with ungraded stallions now, purely because if we as a nation achieved even half of the standard I saw there we would be doing very well indeed.

My hope is that we will have a British Studbook that can really contend with a German one (I think I'm just talking warmbloods now – i have no idea about Suffolk Punches etc). There are so many nice horses that don't grade with their own breed studbooks that will grade in ours – because they are nice horses – but is that enough? How can a horse not even be considered by it's own breed society as a desirable stallion prospect to continue that breed, be approved by another society which doesn't even specialise in that breed? Surely logic would suggest that if you get approval of your own society first then you will be more alluring to other studbooks. I know it doesn't work that way, just don't know why? So, what say, we all club together and buy Weltmeyer, Jazz and Sandro Hit as our foundation stallions?? lol

Most of you know more than me, and have loads more experience – I just wanted to share my musings as an inspired British breeding enthusiast.

AND!! I had the privilege of meeting the legend that is Florestan:

Seeing him under saddle he could easily be mistaken for a seven year old (he's 22 now and still one of the most popular stallions standing)!!

 

[almorton]

wow. amazing isnt it. and they dont even show off about it, cos its standard procedure over there!

 

[dannydunne]

i've had the same feelings when going to places like that.

its the history of it that always hits me and the sheer size of them. i cant really explain it but when you're there you cant help but wonder where we went wrong.

glad someone shares the same passionate views as me and believes that one day we will be able to compete with the big boys if we actually put some effort in and give it 110%.

 

[dannydunne]

here are some pics i took when i went to the stallion show at st lo

you can get the same feeling when visiting smaller studs like klatte, theres a sense of history and tradition that we seem to lack. next feb i'm planning on doing a mini euro trip visiting studs and stallions shows. i also hope to visit some more of these national and state studs. i'm very interested in the swedish one at flyinge.

 

[magic104]

I am all for grading, fully understand the concept etc. One thing concerns me, the lack of training available so that the UK can grade their own stallions to that standard. The lack of support from our Government along with the unclear goals & aims. I also have one niggle about the way we keep being told how fantastic Germany, France, Holland etc do things. Why do we keep seeing mediocre horses in this country with one of their brands? I have seen British bred horses that would knock spots of these fantastically bred, branded animals. I support gradings for both Stallions & Mares, but that is only the start. The argument that they have the format that works, ok statiscally it would do because they breed far more horses. If a stallion is covering 80+ mares you would hope they would get some winners. Of course we could do better, but we started off & continue with no support. Until we bought out the passports this country continued to breed horses without even registering them no matter if they were by a graded stallion. We had a super JA pony, but you could never reproduce because you had no starting point. Though who is to say if you had produced a full sibling it would have been as good. The rest of Europe have increased their odds, they breed more horses, they spend more on training (both horse & rider). They know their blood lines, they know what it is they want to breed. But dont think they dont get it wrong, their examples are plenty to see, they have not all ended up on the dinner plate!!

 

[alleycat]

Have to agree with Magic here; this is also pinched from the website:

<font color="blue"> The original and principle task of all State Studs is to make available to the state´s breeding high quality and performance tested sires at a reasonable fee.

Consequently this is the most important duty of the Northrhine-Westphalian State Stud. In order to fulfil this duty, the State Stud buys young stallions aged two and a half or three mainly at Northrhine-Westphalian licensing places, but also at other gradings. </font>

If only! Whereas here it is left to the vision, determination &amp; business acumen of individuals.

Re. the foundation stallions, though- if we want them we can surely have them already; in a little straw.....

It shows you how hard it is for our stallion producers, though; no market such as this for the cream of their colts, but direct competition from the results of this system when it comes to selling coverings.

Are these places purely stallion stations? Are the mares privately owned?

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
i've had the same feelings when going to places like that.

its the history of it that always hits me and the sheer size of them. i cant really explain it but when you're there you cant help but wonder where we went wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where we went wrong was to live on an island, in which the main state-funded form of defence was sea-born so horse breeding was always a privately funded activity either for agricultural (ploughing, draught etc) or leisure (racing, hunting) purposes. This is in direct contrast to mainland Europe where the defence of landlocked borders by home-bred cavalry was the main objective and funded accordingly. So instead of beating your breast and head in angush at the short-sightedness of British breeders over the centuries just blame the end of the last Ice Age.....

As I said in a post a few days ago a cavalry horse had to be bred from bloodlines that were rideable (so that the troups could handle them), sound (so that they would not break down in the battlefield) and athletic (so that they could advance/retreat quickly on command so these were the ones that were selected for breeding. Becuase military ventures are funded by the government/crown there was always money to test almost to destruction if necessary the fitness for purpose of the bloodlines and breeding horses being used to breed animals for them and this is the culture that founded ALL the original European studbooks -- and is the reason why so many are still generously funded by their own governments or local breeders organistions today. Read the Introductory chapter to the International Warmblood Horse if you want the full historical context to all this.

[ QUOTE ]
I am glad someone shares the same passionate views as me and believes that one day we will be able to compete with the big boys if we actually put some effort in and give it 110%.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the best way to do this is not to slavishly follow the huge (and very expensive) state stud system (now actually being devolved to local responsibility/ denationalised in many cases to make them more easily managed, Flyinge and Stromsholm actually did this is in the early 1980s) but to learn by their mistakes (they did make some!) and more importantly look at how the newer studbooks such as DV and the KWPN have managed to evolve their own -- often actually more quickly reactive and market-based -- breeding programmes using the principles of grading and on-going performance testing (in test, competition and through progeny) to fit the less centralised breeding operations in their own countries. The key to all of the successful new studbooks is how ruthlessly they have culled stallions from old-fashioned / basic bloodlines (especially those of draft and driving origins such as Groningen, Gelderlander and old unimproved coach-horse type Oldenburg and Fredericksburg breeds ) from the top lines of their pedigrees and to premit them only rarely in the bottom line of their graded mares.

All this has taken time (about 40 years for both of those studbooks) but in the UK we have an advantage becuase actually our mare herds -- although not necessarily graded or officially documented in the past -- have profited from generations of upgrading TB blood as a spin off from the race course, so if mated to modern quality warmbloods from *correctly graded* modern stallions they are already a good deal of the way there. This is of course what has happened at the really competitive end of Irish Sport Horse breeding where pretty much all the sires of the breeds current top listed international performers across all disciplines and in the Olympics were either Irish-born and graded as Irish Sports Horses (ie part wb or XTB and not pure-bred Irish draught/RID) or were imported warmbloods or were Thoroughbreds. Market forces are no respectors of sentiment and Irish breeders have recognised this and acted on it very swiftly, hence their number 1 ranking in the WBFSH eventing studbooks in July 2008, but heavy on light was definitely not the way they went.

What really holds back British breeding is not the lack of huge, expensive facilities or test centres, but the fact that so many horses are bred just as a replacement for the owner's mare with little or no thought for whether the product will have a future or even whether the stallion chosen is able to fuilfill the needs of the breeder let alone the wider market. As several posters on this forum have attested, there is certainly a market for middle-of-the-road all round stallions with rideable (not extravagant) paces, an amenable temperament, clean (but not overly athletic) jump and good sound limbs all round but such animals must be graded to ensure that their bloodlines and progeny remain recorded -- and their soundness and temperament externally verified -- and must defiently not be second-class /failed stallion imports from abroad. However, even though this is not primarily an Elite sport horse breeding market the conflicting set of aims and requirements it generates when contrasted to those of Elite sport breeding (and the number of studbooks that try to service both markets), plus of course the naturally indendent nature of most British breeders , makes it rather more difficult than it should be for the industry to progress.

As most of you know since the early 1980s my whole direction in horses is towards the Elite in sport, but as the 'hobby' owner of a palomino section D cob graded with the SPSS and destined to produce (hopefully) good all rounders, especially WHPs I am also involved in both ends of the market. OTOH, I would never realistically expect my 'hobby' to earn money or throw a European champion (although at least one SPSS-graded Section D has of course) becuase I know what sort of level of performance is required at the top end and perhaps we should all consider that before we start bemoaning a situation whose roots lie in history but which we can resolve by concerted action and quality control.

Sorry if this got a bit long but I do think we all need to take a step back from the rather heated tones of some of the recent threads and think a little more analytically about why we do what we do and how we can improve (if we want to that is )

 

[alleycat]

That puts a lot into context. And I suppose we do have a National Stud; but sure enough, its racing based...

So when &amp; how did the cavalry horse become the sports horse, with (I suppose) more of an emphasis on the brilliant individual?

Please could you also give a reference to the book you mention? (Thinking Christmas prezzie wish list here).

 

[dannydunne]

that wasn't long at all it was very good and i totally agree with you especially about not following the examples of national studs and breeding to replace mares. i wasn't beating my breast and head in angush or blaming british breeders it was just a thought i had when i first visited the place about 4 years ago when i was 16 and i felt it was a shame we never had any of this although on returning i did some research and came up with basically what you said.

 

[the watcher]

What a lovely place

Some of the replies to this thread have been well thought out and really interesting, I suppose the question remains, what can we do here to put some organisation into how we grade our own horses, and who can make it happen?

 

[dannydunne]

[ QUOTE ]
So when &amp; how did the cavalry horse become the sports horse, with (I suppose) more of an emphasis on the brilliant individual?

[/ QUOTE ]

most continental warmblood breeds were either riding horses, carriage horses or farm animals but after the world wars, the invention of cars and mechanisation of farms horses were no longer needed for cavalry or agriculture so breeders set out to breed leisure horses. in england these horses became hunters and on the continent they became warmbloods. at the end of the 60s lesiure riding and equestrian sports really took off so stud books looked for ways to refine mares, improve traits and potential. stud books set aims and have been trying to fulfill these since by improving their mare bases. different stud books used different breeds in order to improve their stocks (like sf in holstein, trakehners in hannover, sf, trak and hannoverians in oldenburg,) and as time goes on the mixing continues. most used the tb (although not a new idea, hanns were improved by tbs and holsteins in the 1700s) to refine their mares and continued to do so for quite a while up until the 60s- 70s after which the amount of tbs used reduced as the quality had already been infused. to top it off grading and strict selections helped improvements further and culling removed the substandard horses. today we see the main infulences for jumping coming from holstein and france to improve other breeds. the lengendary stallions from the past will be seen in most young horse pedigrees today, sometimes several times. try looking in at foal pedigrees for jumpers and see if you can find one that doesn't have ibrahim, cor de la bryere, lady killer or furioso. its not impossible but most will have atleast one.

so in short it was after the 2nd world war by using tbs to refine stocks and strict selection procedures (and the help of governments).