saddlesore
Well-Known Member
...... isn't this video fantasic? What a stunning, clever horse. Fantastic partership too. Well jealous! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc
I know lots of you hate parelli, but....
- Thread starter saddlesore
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piebaldsparkle
Well-Known Member
Great jump at the end
jeeve
Well-Known Member
Brilliant to have a partnership like that with a horse.
I just wish that I had the videos (which I have seen, but they were not available for sale) of Phillip Nye who reached level 4 and could do the most advanced dressage moves on Pats horse without bridle and saddle, in fact, when he sent the horse back to Pat, he was at the Hobart port (City centre) in Tasmania, bare back and bridleless doing these moves, including piaffe and passsage. He does this as a kind of goodbye with the horse.
I just wish that I had the videos (which I have seen, but they were not available for sale) of Phillip Nye who reached level 4 and could do the most advanced dressage moves on Pats horse without bridle and saddle, in fact, when he sent the horse back to Pat, he was at the Hobart port (City centre) in Tasmania, bare back and bridleless doing these moves, including piaffe and passsage. He does this as a kind of goodbye with the horse.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
I have the Phillip Nye videos and treasure them. He trained Magic beautifully and the relaxation in their work is obvious in the vids. When she loses it a bit working without a bridle he stays so calm and works quietly to bring her back with him. I have met him and watched a clinic that he taught in Australia, he is a master horseman and just the nicest person you could meet.
I have a friend who worked through the Parelli instructor training with Phil. Things were much more flexible in those days and Phil was always one of a kind, doing things his way. He was already an established horseman when he was invited to join Parelli, having been brought up on his grandfather's sheep station, riding tough, fierce Arabs every day and also starting them.
I think the Mikey and Red Sun video is always amazing to watch. He seems to have managed extreme liberty without his horse getting too tense about it, or switching off. The thing to bear in mind about Parelli, for me anyway, is not so much the results when someone gets to "Level 4" (old Parelli level 4, no mean feat) is how they got there. People go on about the marketing, the commercialism, it being a rip-off etc. I'm sure they will start to do that again on this thread as always. To me that is not half as important as how the horses are trained, and sadly the Parelli training can be tough on a horse.
I don't care what people earn, that is between them and the people that buy the product. With all trainers I'm interested in what they actually do, and what they teach people to do.
p.s. I wheel out the Phillip Nye videos every now and then and always have a little weep at the end where he's riding Magic in the park, bareback and in a rope halter, with the ship in the background that will take her away. His stallion is awesome though I'm told. Phillip Nye trained Magic, and she's never looked the same with Pat.
I have a friend who worked through the Parelli instructor training with Phil. Things were much more flexible in those days and Phil was always one of a kind, doing things his way. He was already an established horseman when he was invited to join Parelli, having been brought up on his grandfather's sheep station, riding tough, fierce Arabs every day and also starting them.
I think the Mikey and Red Sun video is always amazing to watch. He seems to have managed extreme liberty without his horse getting too tense about it, or switching off. The thing to bear in mind about Parelli, for me anyway, is not so much the results when someone gets to "Level 4" (old Parelli level 4, no mean feat) is how they got there. People go on about the marketing, the commercialism, it being a rip-off etc. I'm sure they will start to do that again on this thread as always. To me that is not half as important as how the horses are trained, and sadly the Parelli training can be tough on a horse.
I don't care what people earn, that is between them and the people that buy the product. With all trainers I'm interested in what they actually do, and what they teach people to do.
p.s. I wheel out the Phillip Nye videos every now and then and always have a little weep at the end where he's riding Magic in the park, bareback and in a rope halter, with the ship in the background that will take her away. His stallion is awesome though I'm told. Phillip Nye trained Magic, and she's never looked the same with Pat.
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amandap
Well-Known Member
I don't know zip about Parelli training but I so agree with the rest of this quote Tinypony!
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
The jumps were fantastic...
jeeve
Well-Known Member
yes the phillip nye videos with magic made me cry as well, and everyone else in the room.
Phillip is such a lovely man and his wife, I met them a long time ago when Pat used my ISH in a demo, (his first ride), I do not think that people realise how tough the PNH program was as it first came out, and we had a great bunch of instructors in Australia, all different, they all brought their own experience with them to the table.
I do have other videos of Phillip Nye training problem horses which I think are great as well.
saddlesore
Well-Known Member
I don't know a great deal about Parelli but I'm sure all methods can be harsh in the 'wrong' hands. Didn't realise that Magic hadn't been trained by Pat! Have seen videos of him riding Magic and just assumed, he/she certainly doesn't look like an easy horse!
My friend is very into Parelli and she suggested giving this video of Red Sun a google and I honestly found it quite something. My personal aspirations with my horse are pretty low but a partnership like that is certainly something to strive for!
My friend is very into Parelli and she suggested giving this video of Red Sun a google and I honestly found it quite something. My personal aspirations with my horse are pretty low but a partnership like that is certainly something to strive for!
team barney
Well-Known Member
During the ground work the horse's attention is not focussed on the trainer but purely on the whip. The movement is stiff and reactionary, not harmonious. The horse displays none of the bend and associate with a comfortable, relaxed horse.
Under saddle the horse looks very uncomfortable and stiff through the back, and is being hauled into the movements displayed, neck ropes are surprisingly severe when used as strongly as demonstrated in that video.
The video may give the impression of a partnership but the signs are there as to the reality of the relationship.
I suppose it all depends on whether you believe the end justifies the means, I don't.
Under saddle the horse looks very uncomfortable and stiff through the back, and is being hauled into the movements displayed, neck ropes are surprisingly severe when used as strongly as demonstrated in that video.
The video may give the impression of a partnership but the signs are there as to the reality of the relationship.
I suppose it all depends on whether you believe the end justifies the means, I don't.
saddlesore
Well-Known Member
Totally disagree. To me that horses is playing the game and is focusing on his next cue, the ways dogs do. I used to play with my last horse at liberty and he would chase me about and get himself right worked up as he found it so exciting.
I'm also not able to see the harsh use of the neck strap that you're mentioning?
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jeeve
Well-Known Member
team barney - you are always negative about NH and PNH in particular. I know that you cannot possibly have an open mind about this.
I have an ISH that I acheived a L2 standard of groundwork with (ie not high level, just basic), he and I have a bond that I cannot begin to express. But suuficient to say that he recognises my vehicle when I drive up, (he lives at another property to me), he is not fed by me, but he will always keep an eye out, to the extent that my mum always knew when I was about toarrive as he could hear my car before he could see it, and he would stand waiting for me to arrive. He would always wait for me to open the car door and get out and then neigh a hello. He will stay with me at liberty, and respond to me, with or without a stick, the stick just is a training aid. I could go on but it is ireelevant - the point is that it is possible to create an incredible bond with your horse beyond what most even dream of, and anyone can do it.
The stick is used as a signal, but most animal trainers/handlers use a stick of some sort, think sheperds, geese herders, look at any culture where livestock is a daily part of peoples life. they use a stick as a communication tool - it is an extension of arm that is all, it helps make things more obvious. The horse would respond without it at a Level 4 stage, but dressage riders use spurs and whips as communication tools when training their horses - I cannot really see that there is a difference.
Re training methods- any training method can be harsh, that depends on the trainer.
JFTDWS
+++ Out of Cheese Error +++
I don't have a problem with the video - nice horse, well trained, looks relaxed to me, can't see him doing anything particularly aggressive to it (though I did skip bits as I got bored with the endless circling) but it's this attitude that depresses me.
"incredible bond" ... "beyond what most even dream of". Holier than thou, much? It is possible to have a good working relationship of the sort you describe by other means too. PNH doesn't have a monopoly on it. Perhaps Jeeve didn't mean it that way, but I do find a number of local PNH-lovers seem to think their partnership is better solely by virtue of signing up to PNH
team barney
Well-Known Member
I have said time and time again that most people would consider my approach to horses to be natural horsemanship. I am barefoot, bitless (often bridleless), I ride bareback 99% of the time and when I do use a saddle it is treeless. I would never approach a horse with any form of aggression and unfortunately aggressive behaviour is the starting point and mainstay of some forms of natural horsemanship. I have no issues with NH whatsoever but I don't think it is free from cruelty, in fact I think some of the practises marketed are exceptionally cruel.
I am negative about Parelli as I have done extensive research on the practise and see the cruelty that simmers beneath the surface. The marketing and the reality are two very different stories, I would never allow one of my horses to be subjected to the mental torture of that kind of training.
angelish
Well-Known Member
really "neck straps severe" i think you need to get hold of yourself and give yourself a shake no matter what anyone thinks of parelli (i don't agree with some things they do) but come on look what can be done without the need for any kind of bit/tack/gadgets etc
it must of taken hours to train that horse to that standard ,hats of to him ,i enjoyed the video although it did bring tears to my eyes as i used to be able to ride a mare of mine with just a neck strap ,not to that standard but a prelim dressage test wouldn't have been a problem
team barney
Well-Known Member
A neck strap can easily restrict breathing if used with heavy hands, and trainers have been known to use them on difficult horses as they can be more coercive than a bridle for some despite looking rather innocuous. Used correctly with light hands they are no issue, but used heavy handedly they aren't particularly gentle.
angelish
Well-Known Member
sorry but i completely disagree with you
yes if a very thin piece of cord was used high up the neck with force it could cause discomfort
but the guy in this video is in no way causing any harm
yes if a very thin piece of cord was used high up the neck with force it could cause discomfort
but the guy in this video is in no way causing any harm
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
My horse knows my engine noise, he is always glad to see me and comes to call, he will follow me round the manege when I take his saddle and bridle off to let him roll, I can ride most of my horses without saddle and bridle, I know nothing much much Parelli except waving a rope near a horses head, which to me is bullying, I did see an interview with Pat and could not make head nor tail about his philosophy.
team barney
Well-Known Member
I can't claim my horses know my engine noise because I never drive to their fields. I do however get a neigh every time they see me and they all come over to the fence without being called. When I do call them they all come over straight away, usually at a canter. Those I ride can be ridden without tack, and imo a neckstrap counts as tack so no I don't use one when riding at liberty.
Parelli is bullying.
The philosophy works by confounding people into believing Parelli is the kindest approach available in the equine world and if you love horses you must love Parelli.
rhino
Well-Known Member
team barney
Well-Known Member
No, MY horse loves ME the most!
Horses for courses...
I was agreeing with MrsD that you can have a relationship with your horse without the need for a systematic training regime, I wasn't try to say my horse loves me more! I think it is fascinating that they learn engine noises, as I have never been in a position where mine have learnt that
Your post did make me lol though
padderpaws
Well-Known Member
There are lots of English training and trainers that are also very very harsh. Lets name some just to ring the changes. Parelli bashing is soo yesterday and soo boring. Lets talk about Team Fredericks, and other top eventers. Also Carl Hester and his fantastic elastic. I am sure these people lunge their horses right? and when they are doing their ground work/lunging they have got a whip in their hands right?? and they use the whip to back up their voice commands etc. How are they different to anyone else doing ground work??
Roody2
Well-Known Member
I'm fairly sceptical about the whole *parelli* phenomenon. I agree there are parts of it that are a good basis for any relationship with a horse (and indeed other animals such as dogs) but I also agree that it can be dangerous in the wrong unedcated hands. But that can be said for a lot of things - a snaffle bridle in the wrong hands can be torturous.
Anyway, back to the video - I couldn't see clearly what he was riding with - can someone find a picture of this neck strap thing? Also, he was bl00dy lucky to get over that first picnic bench, not much preparation for that one!!
Anyway, back to the video - I couldn't see clearly what he was riding with - can someone find a picture of this neck strap thing? Also, he was bl00dy lucky to get over that first picnic bench, not much preparation for that one!!
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
My cats know the noise as well, [it is a diesel], but I know my boy likes to lie down after his breakfast, and was concerned he had stopped doing this .........it was because I parked closer to his stable, so he got up to look out his stable!
saddlesore
Well-Known Member
No, MY horse loves ME the most!
Horses for courses...
Ha ha ha ^^This!^^ FFS some people get so defensive, seriously!
Thought it was a fantastic video showing what I consider to be a fantastic partership. Its of little consequence to me whether that partership was achieved by Parelli, other forms of NH, 'traditional' horsemanship or voodoo.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
I don't know a great deal about Parelli but I'm sure all methods can be harsh in the 'wrong' hands. Didn't realise that Magic hadn't been trained by Pat! Have seen videos of him riding Magic and just assumed, he/she certainly doesn't look like an easy horse!
My friend is very into Parelli and she suggested giving this video of Red Sun a google and I honestly found it quite something. My personal aspirations with my horse are pretty low but a partnership like that is certainly something to strive for!
I'd be very happy to get what Mikey has with Red Sun, possibly not in quite the same way, but I don't think the horse looks terribly stressed.
Magic was a "problem horse" who turned up on a Parelli clinic in Australia. She was considered dangerous so Pat brought her then left her with Philip Sharp (something I understand he does from time to time). Philip had her for, I think, about 2 years. During that time HE worked with her, and there is some brilliant video footage as mentioned which shows their great partnership. The wonderful liberty work, tackless riding, working in true collection - she did that all with Phil. Then in 2001 Pat asked for her back and she made the journey. (Sniffle!). This was a little while before Phillip left the Parelli organisation. He now has a fabulous chesnut stallion to play with and my friend who has seen them together says that they are amazing together. I don't think it's available on DVD etc to watch anywhere though. I can honestly say that I've never seen Magic look the same with Pat, and I don't think he's improved her since he took her back. Everything he does, she could already do with Phillip. That's just my opinion of course, some will disagree with me (and will hopefully have seen Phillips "progress report" and other videos to compare).
I steer very clear of Parelli these days, but have to acknowledge that it opened up a whole new world for me, and gave me some treasured memories. When I went to my first Parelli Savvy Day they were showing the Do More Naturally video. Two riders really caught my imagination, a man riding with no tack on a chesnut Arab, and another on a little Appy. A few years later, after we'd all left Parelli, I was sitting somewhere in South Australia one evening nattering to these two over a cuppa ... I would never have imagined at that first Savvy Day that one day I'd be able to call Steve Halfpenny and Phillip Nye my friends. They are still a source of inspiration to me.
I know that's sentimental dribble and really not quite the H+H thing, but I don't care, I've been very lucky.
Ibblebibble
Well-Known Member
they're not, but they also aren't claiming that their way is the only right way and everyone else is wrong
they also aren't making up new words to back up their teachings, like Horsenality?? reminds me too much of those annoying adverts for toothpastes where they blab on about pro argen formula, it's a made up chemical sounding name to make their product sound better than anyone elsesunbalanced
Well-Known Member
I imagine he was riding with a savvy string which is what most parelli students use as a neck string. It is basically just a piece of string. http://shop.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/product.jsf?productId=17 That is what I use to ride my horse in and every other parelli student I know does too - I imagine Mikey is the same. Anything works though - if I'm riding with a bridle and I want to take it off, I sometimes just hook it over my saddle horn and use the reins on her neck, or a stirrup leather would work. It definitely looks like Mikey is using a savvy string and as it says he is level 4 he would have been awarded a black savvy string (you get different colours for different levels, like karate belts), which would explain why it is so hard to see.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
jesus get over yourself! it's perfectly possible to have a fantastic bond with your horse without having to buy dvds and books to achieve it. That is what gets people's goat up about parelli. it's the superior attitude that other people can't possibly achieve a relationship with their horse without parelli, and that the rest of us just can't 'understand' it!
I understand it perfectly. At a previous yard, I've also seen a 10 year old child get a better bond with her 13hh pony, that several parelli practising adults did, even with all their dvds and gears.
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
Paddie22 I salute you.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Going back to the video... he's just got the 6ft bit of rope that also goes on the end of the carrot stick around the horse's neck. I should think he can probably do this without a string at all now, maybe the PNH fans can confirm.
Of course people can have a great "bond" with their horses regardless of how they train them. (Rolls eyes).
Of course people can have a great "bond" with their horses regardless of how they train them. (Rolls eyes).