I know the P word is controversial but...

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Tickles

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I sat next to the Parelli couple from our yard at our xmas party and they've almost convinced me to try some...

Well, that and the YM (dressage rider, not P person) suggesting the 'sign language' stuff it might be useful after watching me putting jumps away whilst leading share horsey by reins one night as gate to arena was open to car park.

The P lady has had horses since before I was born but only took up P a year ago. He is a novice. Both look very happy riding their horses and in fact are some of the few confident enough to hack out on shoot days at the farm. He says it has stopped him being scared, she says she enjoys all the 'playing' and that it makes her horse more confident.

So, I was wondering... is there a sort of 'own brand' Parelli I could try? I'm not keen on spending heaps supporting a dubious franchise but thought teaching 'sign language' and 'putting nose onto scary things on command' might be useful.
 
Try intelligent horsemanship. It is less extreme and a lot of what Kelly Marks says makes absolute sense. She's very into spook busting etc.
 
Oh, I've watched some of her videos on HorseHero and was quite impressed. Also saw the 'celebrity TREC' thing she did at Windsor last year... that is a good idea thank you :-)
 
I make my own sort of p ish stuff up.
I take my horse in the school once a fortnight - Lunge her for a min on each rein, get her to bend, do carrott stretches, get her to walk though the water tray, hop on bareback for 5 mins at the end....we both enjoy it and it's something different to do.
 
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I make my own sort of p ish stuff up.
I take my horse in the school once a fortnight - Lunge her for a min on each rein, get her to bend, do carrott stretches, get her to walk though the water tray, hop on bareback for 5 mins at the end....we both enjoy it and it's something different to do.

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If I had carrots on me all we'd do up until they were gone is him pester me til I've fed him them, and then sulk after they're gone. I'd have to do that at the end me thinks, and hide them outside the arena
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The "sign language" isn't basic Parelli, there is a lot to be learnt first. What do you want to get out of this? To have your horse follow you around or stand still when you want?
Intelligent Horsemanship doesn't focus on sign language, which is what Parelli would call liberty work, at all.
 
My horse has been transformed in a matter of months, but then i had help...i have now bought the levels (it was a REALLY good deal otherwise I couldnt justify it!) I think there are a lot of misguided opinions on it, at the end of the day its made my horse VERY happy and me...and I have a lovely relationship with her! we have a LONG way to go but everyone can always improve things!
 
I think she means liberty work. Once you've got your 12ft line and 22 ft line work established you are ready to start to work with your horse at liberty in a round pen. Eventually you start to be able to have your horse stay with you and respond to you in an open area. When I was doing that it was a Level 3 sort of thing, but I see the levels seem to have increased in number and got much easier recently, so don't know where it would come now.
I must admit, my first thought in your original post OP was, why not shut the arena gate? Even if you were holding your horse, they could get loose and there where would you be?
 
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chesnut_mare - sounds fun. I sometimes hop on bareback after loose schooling (he loves doing it over jumps which I make 'scary' with rustley plastic etc) and carrot stretches wd be a good addition.

Woeisme, Holly_P - Well, the initial idea was for horse to follow (he usually does this anyway), stand still (which he *sort of* does if I say 'stand' and there isn't anything too tempting for him to wonder over to) and move over/back on command - the P lady does it by wagging/pointing fingers which is what I meant by 'sign language'.

He isn't rude but I don't really have a consistent 'system' of signals for these things, we just do them with English language and me flapping hands.

They are also training the horse to put its nose and/or feet on things on-command too. I thought that might be helpful for when mine is scared of gates/drain covers etc. ATM I do a very unsophisticated 'one polo per foot on scary thing' method when we need to but again thought something more "official" might help.

BTW I do usually have the gate closed. It was only open becasue YM had come in with her horse and laughed at me "you don't fall off him do you?" when I said I might shut it. So, just that time, I continued jumping with it open and it seemd silly to shut it just for putting jumps away.

Having said that the other arena (proper surface, floodlights etc) is totally unfenced and a loose horse there could get to all the arable fields and roads around the farm so it would be useful for when we have to use that one anyway.

Hope that makes more sense now and clarifies if what I'm wanting to learn is actually Parelli or not!
 
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I think there are a lot of misguided opinions on it, at the end of the day its made my horse VERY happy and me...and I have a lovely relationship with her! we have a LONG way to go but everyone can always improve things!

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Agreed!! I have got the success series and liberty and horse behaviour, and although i haven't religiously worked through the whole lot, i play with the games and have improved my relationship with my horses no end! I have also learnt a lot about myself. I have always had a short temper and been stuck within 'the rules' I have been taught by. I am now much more open minded, and let my horses 'tell' me what they think, instead of just making them do whatever I wanted with no discussion. And I'm much less hot headed than before, both with the horses and at home!!!!!! (much to husbands relief!!)

I believe no single idea is correct, and a little bit of everything is good for you and your horses!!
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im glad you have said that! i have chilled right out, used to get very stressed about things....i think Bridie refelcted me and we are both cucumbers now....altho everyone now and then we both revert!

what i like is that im not having to TELL her to do something she is offering me things all the time....she wants to do the things i ask!

it might not be for everyone and they might all get hung up on the commercialism but i over look that...gotta make a living some how hey!
 
Tickles. The horse moves back when an owner wiggles her finger because she has taught it the "Yo Yo game". When the horse was wearing it's halter with the 12ft line and clip on, she held the rope and first wiggled her finger, and when he didn't go back she went to "phase 2" and wiggled her wrist, then if he didn't go back she did something along the lines of locking her elbow against her body and wiggled half her arm (phase 3, by which time the horse really knows it is being asked to do something), and if he didn't go back she went to phase 4 and let her arm go straight, took it back level to her shoulder and then "wiggled" the rope with her whole arm so that the horse was hit in the face with the clip.
Sooner or later the horse learns to move back from a finger wiggling because it knows what will follow.
Taken further, once the horse and student have all 7 games in place, and have learnt to do them on a 12ft line and 22ft line, the student will be able to pretty much move the horse in any direction with subtle cues. The subtle cues having been taught by whatever 4 Phases apply to the particular "game". Then, when working at liberty they should be able to do the same. If the horse decided to leave they will be able to turn it back by "chasing" the hind end (to bring the front end around). So what you want to do would come eventually.
Alternatively, you could just teach your horse to ground tie. Which I do by dropping the rope or rein in front of them, and moving them back each time they move away in the slightest.
 
Ah, bit less impressed with the sign language now it has been de-mystified a bit :-(

Ground tying I've seen a Kelly Marks vid clip of and we sort of do (no rope dangling, just in case!). Maybe we'll start with polishing that up a bit and then try some P type stuff later if still tempted. :-)

Thanks for explaining everyone!
 
Just to add that I would imagine sign language to be your body language in relation to the horse's. Both Non and Pro Natural horsemanship people use body language to interact with their horses; natural horsemanship just aims to teach you to use your body language in a clear and effective way.

If you'd like to learn more about lots of different methods, I would really recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Groundwork-Training-Your-Horse-Exercises/dp/0715324411/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Its got sensible instructions for lots of different groundwork trainers' methods in there, including Parelli and Kelly Marks.
 
I would avoid the parelli and go for intelligent horsemanship. MY main prob with parelli is the stick waving at the horse's head...I'm sorry but it's just not cool!

For a tradionally trained horse parelli would be very confusing whereas IHS shouldn't be as it's designed more around classic (as the yanks call it) riding.

So long as you stay safe for both you and the horse and enjoy what you're doing then there's no harm in trying anything new!
 
I haven't found any problems re traditionally trained horses being taught Parelli groundwork. The ridden work is another matter. Riding in the halter, fair enough and the horses easily deal with that. I'm not so sure about the way Linda Parelli teaches people to sit and ride though.
I have "done" a lot of Parelli in my time (and that in-depth experience is why I don't do it any more). I don't think that the way Parelli horses react to their handlers is simply down to the handler using body language. What happens is that we, the handlers, teach the horse what the body language we want to use means. EG if we are teaching the horse to yield it's hind end away from us using the "Driving Game" we teach the horse that if we point something at their hind end (even a finger or an intense look) the horse must move their bum and turn to face us. In the process of teaching that we might end up doing what Pat shows us, which is to sharply hit the horse on the bum when it doesn't move it away. As with the Yo Yo above, the horse learns to avoid the first "phase" and avoid the consequences of the fourth phase. I have had horses working with me at extreme liberty in the past, the sort of stuff you see at demos. I never kidded myself that it showed a wonderful bond or relationship, I had simply taught my horse to stay with me, move away at a signal etc.
Personally I don't have any more problem with stick waving than I do with the way Monty shanks a horse while it is wearing the Dually halter. I think any sensible Parelli student will find an alternative to actually touching their horse on the face with the stick (ie phase 4), and a lot do.
However, as I said above, if you want to teach your horse to stick with you, or stand when required, I don't think IH will teach that. Liberty stuff is simply not what they are about. You could try clicker. Clicker horses seem to quickly learn that their owner is a good treat dispenser, and therefore will follow them about hopefully all over the place. Demonstrating a "bond".
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As with the Yo Yo above, the horse learns to avoid the first "phase" and avoid the consequences of the fourth phase.

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That should say "learns to respond to the first phase".
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Some very good points and food for thought.

Many people will bad mouth things they have seen in a very generalised way, and think that as one person has done, then all must. (re hitting horses in the face).

Everyone should understand that to pass strong comment on something they should try their best to research and understand if this is the norm.

Its great to see someone doing that, thanks Woeisme, I try to evaluate everything I see, and your wise words my help others to do so!
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Thank you. I will always credit Parelli with giving me an excellent introduction to these different approaches to horsemanship, and some very useful skills. I started off by looking at what Monty did, but thought it was very limited as it stopped short after the basics of ground handling were in place.
Parelli set me off on a journey of discovery and learning. Pat told me that I wouldn't have the "savvy" to evaluate other trainers until I'd passed my Level 3 (the old level 3 by the way!). That was because I told him I was going to watch a Mark Rashid Clinic. He was wrong. As a result of seeing Mark and others (some of whom were ex Parelli instructors) I realised that I wasn't as comfortable with the Parelli training as I had been. The things we were told were happening weren't always what was really going on, if that makes sense. I was an absolute fanatic, believed that I was being kind to my horse and fair, then I realised that I could be much kinder and much fairer and moved on.
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Re the legendary hitting horses round the head with sticks. Well, yes they will. As preparation to riding from the sticks (and then without anything on the head) they teach the horse to move away from the sight of the stick, it is the Driving Game used on the head. I wouldn't do it, and even when I was a student I would wave and waggle my stick, but couldn't bring myself to touch my horse's head with it. I still managed the "carrot stick riding" though.
These days I'd do things completely differently.
 
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