I must aplogize ...

[Ciss]

... for not moving Wisnettes blatant (as she says herself) thread hijacking post to a new thread and thus having to subject those wanting to genuinely know about the mechanics of foal registration with different studboks to a highly inappropriate -- and actually so inaccurate that it must have been as hysterically funny to those who know me as it was to me myself -- about (yet again) what Wisnette thinks I know (or don't know) and what I believe and don't believe.

From
[ QUOTE ]
Ciss, I wasn't trying to 'catch you out', I was genuinely interested in your opinion. I can never predict what it is going to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

right through to:

[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be on a crusade to restrict the operations of British studbooks and the choices of British breeders. Pity.

Still, at least you are consistent in it. ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

it is so bizarre and inaccurate that only someone very new to the international breeding scene and only versed in the ways of one particular studbook could make it. BTW it doesn't matter which one as the 'my studbook right or wrong' attitude is typical'of the viewpoint of someone who is only juist begining to learn -- and hasn't yet realised how much more there is left to learn -- about the way the whole thing works on every level. So perhaps we should sympathise with the KWPN for having such a relative newcomer as W as its main promoter on this list rather than someone with a wider, more informed, view .

As a mercy to you all and to save W firther embarassment I will not disect her post point by inaccurate point any further, but at least I know that most of you would have had a really good laugh to start the day when you read her post <ROFL>

 

[the watcher]

I think your post was a little unnecessary.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion and all opinions are valued here, it isn't a competition. It may be that you know better, but there are more gracious ways of pointing that out.

fortunately I can stay well out of this particular debate as I am in the happy position of having a native stud book to register with

 

[Tempi]

I dont really think this is necessary??

Firstly i couldnt care less that you and W 'hi-jacked' my post, and secondly i thought W was very helpful to me, as i didnt realise i could register my foal with the KWPN 'b' so i learnt something knew aswell.

 

[ihatework]

Ooo ... I've just been back and read the post and think this little outburst was really not required. I actually think W made a nicely constructed and helpful argument which if anything deserves a considered reply, not a sarcasatic dig.

 

[ashbank]

I think it's good for people to know about the various options in all their glory, and viewpoints from all are valid. Some people would prefer KWPN B papers to AES auxiliary papers, and some people would prefer something else entirely, I'm sure.

As long as all the available options are brought up, then people have the information required to facilitate a decision without bickering being strictly necessary..

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's good for people to know about the various options in all their glory, and viewpoints from all are valid. Some people would prefer KWPN B papers to AES auxiliary papers, and some people would prefer something else entirely, I'm sure.

As long as all the available options are brought up, then people have the information required to facilitate a decision without bickering being strictly necessary..

[/ QUOTE ]

I entirely agree that people should have a free choice -- and that the choice of stallions should also be as free and international as possible -- which is why I'm afraid I do get irritated when people seemingly almost deliberately misinterpret my posts to mean exactly the opposite. <sigh>

What I object to is any attenpt to imply that there is only one studbook that is suitable for any sport horse foal (unless I suppose it is a pure-bred Trakehner with two Trak graded parents in which case going anywhere else would seem to be pretty pointless) as what every mare owner surely needs is a set of papers that reflects the highest graded status of both the mare and the stallion used on her. Different studbooks have different registration and grading rules, which usually reflect the make up of the mare herd in the country in which the mother studbook is based, so one-size-fits-all is a very short term policy on which to base any breeding programme, personal, national or international.

 

[DQ1]

while I haven't read the thread in question I don't need to open it to know that wisnette will have been promoting the KWPN hard as ever.

for me, as soon as someone becomes totally focused & evangelical on one topic, it puts me right off listening to them.

Ciss has always been kind enough to offer advice & share her extensive "in brain" database on stallions etc.. & I don't detect a strong bias to any particular breed, studbook etc. from her postings on here & elsewhere (except that she promotes British Breeding & I'm not complaining about that). I'm greatful to have someone answering queries quickly, extensively & for free!

Lots of threads lately seem to have de-railed into an off topic snark fest aimed at Ciss & it makes reading those threads rather tiresome for those of us on here to learn about "breeding". Last time I checked this wasn't the KWPN forum....

and from a purely personal point of view, as someone who works in PR & marketing in the horse world, if Wisnette is involved in the UK side of the KWPN in an official capacity (& I don't know if she is), it would put me off getting involved with that studbook - just a thought... Robust debate is good, petty mud slinging, mis-quoting & twisting threads to match assumptions is not.

 

[no_no_nanette]

Hear, hear, DQ1! Ciss has been incredibly helpful to me and other "beginner breeders" on this forum, and her enthusiasm has always come across to me as a support for British breeding in general, not any studbook in particular. I know that everyone here supports increasing the quality of British breeding, so let's focus on what we agree on, and maybe hostilities can cease?

 

[The Voice]

Friendly Post

I thought it was all about having a good mare, doing your homework and putting it to the most suitable stallion, where ever it is, to narrow the odds in producing good stock, getting a live foal on the ground and then after that it is down to training that determines how the horse will perform.

Does it really matter who it is registered with as this is not going to change the horse. As long as you can see the breeding this is the main thing or am I totally missing the point?

Edited to say that isn't also the responsibility of stallion owners to ensure that the mare is also suitable for the stallion rather than taking the pound notes (I can understand why this happens).

 

[DQ1]

the voice - yes in theory...

but then money becomes involved & the big studbooks are "brands" as such as in any business.

Just as Levis charges a premium for a bog standard pair of blue denim jeans, so do the big European studbooks in effect. Yes, they work to improve the breed, but they are also huge marketing machines to maintain the market for a "x" breed horse.

potential olympic superstars will sell whatever papers they have, it is keeping the market bouyant for the average ability 16hh bay warmblood gelding that is the reason why the stud book marketing is required.

& where money is involved comes politics etc...

 

[The Voice]

The trouble with the UK is that for a small Island we have so many breed societies which fragments the industry and as some one who does PR and Marketing you must admit they are rubbish at it (sorry if you are involved but I am sure you are restrained by budgets). For the UK to promote British Bred horses it seems impossible unless someone like Quainton Stud who are very up on their marketing, does a Zangersheide and starts their own studbook for quality performance horses and will be able to promote them abroad.

 

[DQ1]

not involved with the breeding marketing side of things but spent 2 hours last night ranting over a bottle of wine about the lack of a cohesive cross warmblood society marketing strategy - so it's a topic close to my heart voice

I feel the british breeders who pay their subscriptions to the european based studbooks aren't getting value for money from the marketing side of things!

& yes, Quainton do a very good marketing job - did you see their stand at HOYS 07?!

 

[The Voice]

Is the lack of marketing in the UK by the studbooks down to them or the way we market ourselves so that they feel that they don't have t warrant the expense of coming across to the UK to a limited market? You have to tell them about the successes and you do get support although we are still seen as the poor relative . Also If you look at Olympia and Hickstead, a few years ago you would have got the top riders like the Beerbaum's, Lansink, Pessoa all coming across riding their top horses, many Stallions that they promoted, now they don't come. I think we can all draw our own conclussions to this.

I went to the Quainton show in the summer which is one of the best I have been to in years and had a real continental feel about it. I have meet them a couple of times and they are very enthusiastic. I wish them all the best and I hope they get the support as people like them are the way forward.

 

[TFS]

i agree that Ciss has been very helpful to many members of the forum including myself and she does have a wealth of knowledge regarding breeding yet none of us knows everything there is to know, this is where some times we need to shut our mouths and open our ears and listen to others point of views, we then can draw our own conclusions but keep them to our selves if we disagree as i believe we need to all stick together in breeding if were ever going to succeed in improving the quality of horses in britain, but thats just my thoughts on the issue

 

[The Voice]

Happy post

Totally agree with your comments.

To me it seems that the issue is not just about the breeding of the horses. I think we can breed very good horses that are as good if not better than abroad (this is what we have been told by knowledgeable people). It is about how they are produced and the equestrian industry as a whole where we fall over big time. Across the water it is an industry over here, apart from the few it is a hobby, which is becoming more expensive all the time which is not helped by the rise of the cost of living and the 'credit crunch', fuel prices etc, and my opinion speaking to people who have been around a long time, it is in steep decline and becoming a rich mans sport for the 'forty somethings'.

 

[ashbank]

I have found comments and advice from both Ciss AND Wisnette to be very useful in the past - there is plenty of room for everyone, just as there is plenty of room for many studbooks.

Personally, I am coming over towards the "dark side" and liking the idea of using KWPN horses, simply because there is so much information available on both stallions and mare families - I am sure this information is available within other studbooks as well, but the KWPN have been extremely helpful on the telephone and via email the (many) times I have contacted them.

Also agree that we need a cohesive body of British Breeders, as it were, regardless of the studbook of choice for foal registrations.

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]


I entirely agree that people should have a free choice -- and that the choice of stallions should also be as free and international as possible -- which is why I'm afraid I do get irritated when people seemingly almost deliberately misinterpret my posts to mean exactly the opposite. <sigh>



[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm ... it seems anyone who has a different view is misinterpreting your posts - whatever the subject. Perhaps you should re-read your posts before hitting 'submit' and ensure you've made yourself clear and that there IS no room for misinterpretation, rather than accusing others of being 'dense' (or whatever).

 

[Wisnette]

I don't think forums are the place for personal attacks and to be honest, I wasn't going to dain to respond, but then I thought why not - nothing like a good discussion!

I have actually had dealings with other (British) studbooks over the time but several years ago, when I first decided to breed from my Dutch mare, I found getting ANY information about the KWPN, its breeding system, procedures etc, unbelievably difficult and very frustrating. When I did learn what I wanted to know, I found it really eye-opening.

Maybe that's why I sometimes come across as evangelical - I am truly sorry DQ1 if I do, I try hard not to but obviously I'll have to try harder!

.

Since not much has improved over the years since I first started researching, I post about the KWPN mainly so other people don't have the same frustration I had in finding info. And no Ciss, your assumption is wrong, I don't work for the KWPN.

You could say I was also evangelical about wanting British breeders to breed the best horses in the world. (I would have offered my help to British Breeding long ago but with the best will in the world, there are some people I just don't think I could work with

) . That's why I challenged Ciss's stance on the UELN's - it doesn't just effect the KWPN, it effects everyone who wants to use a foreign studbook, be it Oldenburg, Zangersheide, Danish, ZfDP, etc - and that alternative stance could turn out to be more beneficial to British breeding. Who knows if we don't discuss it?