I need help...fear of other dogs

Vizslak

Vizslak

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Well, somethings gone wrong and I can't pin point what but Flora is becoming more and more fearful of strange dogs. She is still fine at shows, wary at ringcraft but ok as long as nothing comes right up to greet her. She will happily ignore other dogs as close as brushing past them or sat right next to her, as long as they are under control and doing the same. Its classic fear, tail between legs, hackles up, growly. Shes not so bad off lead as she can remove herself from the situation and come back to me...she doesn't try and attack but gets snappy (in a warning type way) if she feels trapped by the other dog. I'm not entirely sure what to do for the best with her, I don't want the behaviour to get worse, at the moment I think she is becoming more fearful. She was well socialised with others from a young age and is obviously around other dogs alot out showing most weeks and going to ringcraft every week, it is starting to affect her showing because she is never totally relaxed anymore, this obviously means she is no longer going to enjoy going to shows at all in a minute. :( Maybe thinking about it I can pinpoint it actually....she was stood at ringcraft one week in a stack, I had hold of her head and tail, a bearded collie pup totally out of owners control jumped in her face and she flew for it, I had to be very firm with her to calm her back down, she obviously no longer feels safe whilst stacked with me incase this happens again?! Grrrrrrrrr I'm worried about her, seriously, I want her to enjoy being around other dogs again. This morning we were at a cafe outside (i only had flora with me) and soem people turned up with a labradoodle pup (no comment) hackles went up straight away and she was growling and trying to hide under the table. She chilled out eventually, they were sat at the next table but she was constantly looking worriedly out of the corner of her eye at it, like it was about to come and eat her! :(
Sorry for such a long post!!! HELP! lol
 
O dear poor Ginger nutter!!:(:(:(

I have nothing sensible to suggest as *crosses fingers* all of mine have always been ok with others - I guess the dog guru CAYLA will be the best person with her tribe - the only other thing I can suggest is coming to the AAD meet up so she can meet lots of different canine buddies and get over her fear of strange dogs:) - the owners maybe a different matter of course.......;):rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D:D
 
I've not encountered this type of fear either, I've managed to solve problems with previous dogs that just wanted to kill every dog they met but this is a different thing altogether. They are such sensitive dogs, I had one previously that developed a similar sudden fear of children, we got over that relatively easily, but I can't quite get my head round how to solve this so easily....not having a load of strange dogs under my control at my disposal!
We will certainly be at the meet up :)
 
I have a beagle - Dakota - who is fear aggressive with dogs and people. His stems from no socialization at all with his previous family for the first four years of his life. He is quite simply terrified of anyone and anything that approaches him in an uncontrolled manner. We have had more success with his fear of people than we have with dogs TBH because that is much easier to control. And people are idiots with not controlling their dogs, even if you ask them to they likely can't (me? bitter much? Never! :D).

So ... with the full disclosure that this hasn't completely worked for Dakota with most dogs but it worked very well with his fear of people and a little with smaller dogs ... and I am not an expert ... and don't even play one on TV ... my suggestion (and what our behaviourist suggested for us to try) is to take her back to basics and build her confidence up again with ALL good encounters before you trust that she can cope with uncontrolled ones. Stop all meetings with dogs for now that you can't control and arrange some meet ups with people you know and trust with good friendly dogs who won't get in her face - preferably ones that actually won't pay any attention to her. Have your friends get close with their dogs only as much as Flora seems happy with and treat her with something very high reward as they do and try to keep her focus on you rather than what else is going on. It might take a few meet-ups before she is happy around them or before she is happy with them coming closer, I think it will depend on how ingrained the fear is becoming at this point. Then slowly expose her to more and more dogs that won't get in her face - or can't because they are on the lead - like in town or something where you can walk her by at a distance without having to stop or them get in her face and then back to shows which mostly sound controlled. Like I said, it worked very well with people for us - Dakota wouldn't let anyone near him but now he can meet people on his terms. We've also been able to mix with some smaller, more relaxed dogs using this method. Plus I was very proud of him at the vet a few weeks ago when he sat near a large dog patiently working on "watch" with me instead of worrying about the dog near him. No barking or fear on his face at all. Progress! Obviously Flora isn't as bad as he is, but I think it you don't nip it in the bud now she might end up becoming more and more fearful as time goes by. TBH, I don't think I would take her to the meet-up either unless she has made huge progress before then.

Watch how you are reacting too - remember she will pick up on any tenseness you transmit down the lead and that will re-enforce her fear. It might be a good idea when you are doing your controlled encounters to either talk to your friend or sing so that she stays relaxed because you are. At the vet I was laughing and joking with Dakota as we worked and that made a huge difference with him.

The only other thing I suggest is that you have her checked by a vet - it could be that she has something wrong that is not helping her. Dakota had a low thyroid and some people believe that can cause fearfulness (but he was also chubby and had a really thin coat so his had been bad for a long time when he came to us). He did have some improvement when we got that sorted out. It might be worth getting Flora checked out because it sounds like this has come on suddenly without an incident that brought it on.

I will be interested in what other people have to say ... I've never given up with Dakota even though it has been a long road - and continues to be - for us and if there are new ideas/other suggestions I'll definitely try them. :)
 
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Perhaps stop going to ringcraft and shows for a short while (I know wrong time of year to suggest this :() and instead go to some basic obedience classes. Maybe seeing dogs in a different environment will help relax her, but perhaps go along to the class first to see there are no mouthy, in your face dogs there. Its a good idea to try and mix with dogs you no will be on-confrontational with her, and perhaps take her to horse shows etc where she will see other dogs but not have to have them in her space. She's not due in season is she, I have known some young bitches go very spooky around that time.
 
No helpful suggestions from me, but vibes for Flora-dora:)

Henry got leapt on from behind by an off-lead, totally out of control, massive fat labrador while he was on the lead, which made him jump and yelp:mad: It's no wonder dogs end up with problems:mad:
 
Thanks for your suggestions guys. No shes had two seasons in relatively short succession, and yes she is worse around that time, perhaps her hormones havn't settled quite yet, that is a definate possibility.
I'm so confused by this because she has no problem doing most of what you all suggest doing to help her!! ie. she will go to horse shows etc and be fine (as long as nothing bounces on her) dog shows are no problem, crufts was no problem, she had a lovely day and most of you will be aware just how closely packed and manic that is! All those sort of environments she is happy in. She is more than happy to be asked to sit next to another dog and as long as the other dog is just sat there next to her thats fine...she just doesn't want to talk to it unless its on her terms! Her focus is always always on me, I have no fear of her suddenly breaking that attention and lunging for another dog, she just wouldn't, shes not out for a fight. She's very very people orientated and just seems totally uninterested in other dogs!
All the dogs I know that are non confrontational and not over the top in your face she gets on great with because I have let her off lead with them all already, interacting on her terms in a hope that it will overcome the problem, but it doesn't help with the fear of other new/different dogs. She gets plenty of vocal praise and reward for interacting nicely with new dogs too.
I really think part of the problem is she appears to all to be so well trained and placid and lovely...which she is. So people look and think that because she isnt lunging around on the end of the lead barking/growling and trying to eat their dog that its fine for them to let their dog walk straight up to her. In this situation the owners aren't even really paying attention and I have to move her away because the minute they shove their nose in her face whilst shes sat looking at me behaving herself she will fly...and yes I guess that means I transmit tension down the lead and will therefore progressively make the problem worse, but I can't see a way around that, I can't just let her fly at them even though she shouldn't be put in the situation of feeling like she has to. We have cut down on going to ringcraft as there are unfortunately too many dogs that are not well controlled, in the summer its better though as she has a chance to play off lead with alot of them before we go indoors. At the moment I'm thinking I should try and walk her every day somewhere where there are new dogs off lead to interact with....anyone think this is a good/bad plan?!!
 
I don't use treats when dealing with fearful aggression but in her instance because you show her I would agree with MM and Galupy..... along the lines of what the trainer advised.
I basically flood the dogs I work with (self explanitory, but can explain):D, but again in her instance I think you need to start around calmer dogs, to give you a chance to work with a distraction, you need as sugested to teach her a "watch me" command with a tasty treat, whatever you think will get her attention the best.
You will obs need to be vigilant of the hudalum dogs to use the "watch me" to distract her and if she stands calm with other dogs then don't over treat or over reasure.
Obs the remain calm yourseld (but im sure u do anyway)
I would still be firm and reprimand any aggressive lunging outside of the ring backed up with a "Leave it", but inside try to keep it positive, and maybe try a DAP collar if you are able for when she is in the ring.
I would maybe refrain from the classes or atleast the ones that are over crowded for now, but if there are any quieter ones you are familair with I would work with the positive reinforcer and get back into the calmer classes.
Maybe work on her position (or whatever you do:rolleyes::D) in the field with other dogs around her for short periods with the positive reinforcer and command, then release her for play, I would maybe if she is playful also have a little game of something afet the rinf craft as another positive assosiator.
 
Off to work, so don't worry if I dont answer for another hour or so:D
Would you say...she is worse when dogs approach her when she is on a lead and close to you?
 
im glad im not the only one!
i have a great big GSD x and he will ignore every other dog, unless it greets him, and he hides behind me his back goes up, he doesnt growl but hes very nervous.

the other day we had 2 golden retrievers approach wanting to play and he hid under a bench!!

i dont know how to help him either!

i feel sorry for your dog as its starting to affect something she loves. hope you find out how to help her soon. x
 
Hmmm yes and no, off lead she would rather just run away, she still doesn't want to interact, she will bark if they continue to advance or run back to me and hide behind my legs (she is ingnored and not made a fuss of) she will eventually off lead start to interact if the dog interacts correctly with her! On lead as I say she would never lunge for another dog she will sit and watch me whilst others walk round her, past her, sit next to her etc. no growling or anything as long as she think all these dogs are under a similar amount of control as she is, as soon as a dog is allowed to walk up and sniff her univited she gets growly, fearful....and aggressive if they don't take the hint.
 
She's never been aggressive or even growled in the ring either...I think she is fairly content in the ring because all the other dogs in there are 'working' as she is and she is confident they are all under control, in the ring obviously no one lets there dog walk over and start sniffing or trying to play, so its actually one of her better places to be BUT she is generally just a little more tense in the ring lately, shes not totally relaxed.
 
She may be feeling more aprehensive because the flight is taken away in the ring and literally when they are up in her face she has know where to go and is giving them warning! which is totally acceptible in RL:D but I suppose not in the ring:(
I would then give her a break from the ring and have some meeting and greeting lots of dogs time as you suggest, just try to avoid any bad experiences or over the top dogs whilst you are working with her.
It does not sounds too bad but obs there is a worry it could effect her showing, and def keep incoorperating the "leave it" in a situation where her body language is telling you she is about to snap and a watch me to distract her from over selous dogs.
 
Ok as I said it's not an issue in the ring or at shows really, but at ringcraft it is, I will stop going unless its a very quiet class with older trained dogs only, I think the ringcraft classes are the route of the problem if I'm honest. A dog may and has jumped on her whilst shes in a stack there (albeit only in play) so I don't want her relating that to being in the ring at shows where it just won't happen, she hopefully will start to relax again then. She is not agressive so to speak as she is well trained but she is still fearful if that makes sense! In everyday situations perhaps many wouldn't regard it as a problem, I just want her to be happy to mix with other dogs and not worried (the fact she internalises this worry instead of being 'naughty' and lashing out aggressively upsets me more if you get me?!) Yes she does snap at other dogs but only when she can't get away, at ringcraft class she will shuffle away whilst in a sit...like just scoot up a bit and still looking at me, just to move away from a dog getting too close. So shes not by any means actively aggressive towards others!
 
oh and the mission is to take her on her own (so she can't hide behind the pack) to lots of doggy walking areas to meet others this week...will report back with how we get on. Her recall is ace so I can call her back if it looks like the dog will be too much too soon or if it's two dogs or something (plus she will want to come back anyway cos shes scared!!) Other than that I think off lead interaction with as many different dogs as possible may be the order of the day to get her liking doggy interaction again instead of fearing it...hopefully ;) :D
 
ring craft/the ring.....arghhhhh, u are hurting my brain, remember im not a show groupeeeee:rolleyes::D

I take it the ring is more ott and more bouncy not so well behaved dogs compared to the ring as in the show ring and not ring craft:rolleyes::D
Do u have to go to ring craft, it sounds like cake baking or sewing:p is this jsut to practice her stance and show parading;)
Lol.....I like your plan get her out here and have some fun socialising, and give the RC a wide birth for a while (head hurts):eek::D
 
LOL sorry :p Yes ringcraft is like show training...so training for 'the ring' as in the show ring when you are at a show! Oh my :o We do socialisation games etc as well believe it or not to get them used to a show like atmosphere where obviously they meet lots of other dogs! The trouble is you get lots of people with young dogs and lots of first time handlers etc (no probs we were new once to) but this means they are not always the most controlled dogs! Just because someone wants to have a go at showing their little darling doesn't neccessarily mean they have any basic obedience or that they will ever have enough to actually get it into a show successfully :eek:
At shows although its bustling and full of other dogs they are mostly all used to showing and are well trained, people are going about their business and she is under no obligation to stop and talk to the other dogs or be confronted/bounced at. In the show ring itself at shows nothing will ever bounce on her because they are under control and being shown..........get it??????!!! :p :D :rolleyes:
 
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