I started my horse in the wrong bit and now can't move on!

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TandD

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Written about this horse before; Clydesdale mare bought last November who I had to start properly after the dealer we bought her from 'broke' her (almost literally) and abused her throughout the process.

As she was very bit shy to begin with I decided that a happy mouth straight bar snaffle was the way forwards. Dealer had obviously hurt her tounge with the too small single jointed loosening snaffle from yanking her about and it was obvious from the word go that I'd need to remove the tounge squeeze action.

Roll forward 6/7 months and the mare goes lovely in the plastic straight bar, light, carries herself never once been strong (even in canter blasts!!!). But my problem is that I can't change her bit to something with a joint and I feel she needs it to help with flexion and bend. The straight bar keeps her very straight and she can't flex properly with it.
However a metal or jointed bit makes her freeze up, not take the contact and back off from anything she's asked to do.

So anyone have any suggestions of bits we could try? She needs something quite fat as she has a large mouth and it needs to come in 6.5"!!
Thank you :)
 
Try a straight bar with cheeks? Have you tried a happy mouth jointed bit?

ETA: it sounds like her problem with the jointed bit is at least partly psychological. You could try long reining her off a headcollar/lunge cavesson and wearing a bridle with a jointed bit, to get her used to the idea that it won't hurt.
 
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what about a max control bit, lozenge link but will lock at a certain point to become more like a mullen, may be a good bit to bridge the gap with?
 
I use a NS verbindend on my cob. It locks into a large port when used, taking off all the tongue pressure and it's great for independently lifting a shoulder to create flexion.
 
I'm a bit confused by your OP. A jointed snaffle will not help her flex at the poll. On the contrary, jointed snaffles have a head raising action if anything. Are you sure her lack of flexion is not due to her breeding and conformation? Many heavy breeds are thick through the gullet and just cannot flex.
 
Wagtail said:
I'm a bit confused by your OP. A jointed snaffle will not help her flex at the poll. On the contrary, jointed snaffles have a head raising action if anything. Are you sure her lack of flexion is not due to her breeding and conformation? Many heavy breeds are thick through the gullet and just cannot flex.
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Agree with this. I am beginning to hear my cob breathing roughly now he is doing higher level work with more flexion :(
 
A horse with a fat tongue (and I have had many, inc 2 Clydesdales) needs a slimmer bit! You could try NS bits, they come in 2 thicknesses up to 61/2". But as others have said, you will have to accept the limits of her conformation.
 
we have one in a straight bar and I haven't ever felt it affects her ability to flex or bend, given the number that go 'classically' in a straight bar pelham would tend to agree.

is she in a happy mouth (with the bobbles) or a nathe? do you need something dressage legal? - as iirc the happy mouth with bobbles isn't.

What sides do you have her in atm? I don't think you mention that?

A myler comfort snaffle might work as some movement but no squeeze/becomes mullen at a certain point and quite thin for fat mouths.
 
I don't think I explained well enough what I am wanting a bit with a joint, or at least to move on from her current one.
Yes she currently is in happy mouth straightbar with the bobble bits, I didn't know that it wasn't bd legal so do need to get another bit for her. She's currently got full cheek sides which I'd like to keep and dont really want a loose ring.
She hasn't got a fat tongue but has a big soft mouth and I wouldn't want to put a thin bit in as i can see that being uncomfortable and to harsh on her. She's one of the nicest mouthed horses I know, very soft and light

I find that with the straightbar what you do with one side the other side does the opposite, (and if you dont allow it to then it causes a block) as it is not jointed and independent each side. I realise that i am not explaining this to well, but i know what I'm trying to achieve, was just looking for suggestions to try.
Thank you for your help
 
Clydesdales do not normally have much room in their mouths for a thick bit and are more comfortable in a slimmer bit, yours may of course be the exception. Myler bits sound like what you are looking for but don't go up to the size yuou want unfortunately.
 
People only ask more questions to get a better idea of the issue before giving advice, so it is more relevant. It is very rare that I find someone has covered everything I would like to know, especially regarding the pros and cons of someone's current set up so don't worry about that :) , I understand you better more now though. I'm fairly sure the bobbles make it not legal but please do double check that!

I think in your position I would try something fairly cheap and cheerful to trial the latex covering option- to see if that reduces the feel and movement sufficiently for that to be a suitable intermediate option. It's a shame the mylers don't go that big. - ours is very fussy in her mouth and much better as still as you can get it (she goes in a mullen hanging cheek) but doesn't find the myler too difficult either.

I would also say that I don't think the happy mouths are as flexible as a true nathe with which you might have less of an issue with the reaction on the opposite side of the mouth?

Having said that: - but only 6" and not dressage legal. If you knew what would work you could get abbey to make up the right size I'm sure but tricky to know!
https://www.horsebitbank.com/lock-up-full-cheek-751.phtml

Alternatively I wonder if she might be a good candidate for the NS turtle top/turtle tactio as they would give less of a jointed feeling?

'So what is the difference between the Turtle Top and the Turtle Tactio?
The Turtle Top offers a very even weight-bearing surface across the whole of the mouth, whereas the Turtle Tactio utilises the centre of the tongue in order to alleviate bar pressure. This is comfortable for the horse as the centre of the tongue is depressed down onto the floor of the mouth whereas the outer edges of the tongue are not pushed down onto the angular, bony bars that are not well cushioned and therefore are much more prone to damage.'

http://nsbits.com/2016/06/03/the-turtle-snaffle-family/
 
Keep the same mouthpiece but get one that has cheeks on it to improve her bend.

Also get her checked out with a chiropractor - as she was handled so roughly she may have something out of alignment that makes it hard for her to bend.

One of the things I have always done with any horse I've broken in or schooled on is to lunge - from a cavesson with side reins - it helps so much with bend and allows the horse to see the contact and become confident.

My Clydesdale has been a bit fussy with mouthing but has finally agreed that the shaped, single joint sweet iron is acceptable. She also has an uneven mouth - a lower molar grows at the wrong angle and needs 6 monthly care.

Check tack fit and have teeth checked regularly.
 
Wagtail said:
I'm a bit confused by your OP. A jointed snaffle will not help her flex at the poll. On the contrary, jointed snaffles have a head raising action if anything. Are you sure her lack of flexion is not due to her breeding and conformation? Many heavy breeds are thick through the gullet and just cannot flex.
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No they don't... quite the contrary. What you said is basically what happens when it's used badly - hardly anyone knows how a snaffle is supposed to work thats why they get a bad name. I had to be re-educated and find that it's the easiest bit to achieve a proper flexion.

OP, pulling back will obviously hurt the bars and tongue so you need to lift the bit towards the corners of the mouth. This will alleviate any pressure and this classical technique can be applied to any bit really, not just a snaffle.
 
tallyho! said:
No they don't... quite the contrary. What you said is basically what happens when it's used badly - hardly anyone knows how a snaffle is supposed to work thats why they get a bad name. I had to be re-educated and find that it's the easiest bit to achieve a proper flexion.

OP, pulling back will obviously hurt the bars and tongue so you need to lift the bit towards the corners of the mouth. This will alleviate any pressure and this classical technique can be applied to any bit really, not just a snaffle.
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Agree.
OP - if you wanted to help her deal with the psychological damage, then put a jointed bit on (attached to headcollar) just when feeding so she associates it with something nice. Would take much time and patience to then gradually transfer this to having a contact from the ground and then ridden, but just in case she ever has to be sold on to a less understanding home then it would be worth it.
 
Wagtail said:
I'm a bit confused by your OP. A jointed snaffle will not help her flex at the poll. On the contrary, jointed snaffles have a head raising action if anything.
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tallyho! said:
No they don't... quite the contrary. What you said is basically what happens when it's used badly
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Single joints DO have a head-raising action as they push into the soft palate and exert pressure on the bars of the mouth.

Double joints don't.
 
SpringArising said:
Single joints DO have a head-raising action as they push into the soft palate and exert pressure on the bars of the mouth.

Double joints don't.
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Exactly. Single joints can be agonising for some horses if they are not bent in the middle to avoid pressure on the pallete. The horse raises its head to try to escape the pressure. Not all horses have a problem with single joints (especially if they are lucky enought to have a high upper pallette), but many do. I personally hate single jointed snaffles unless they are ergonomically shaped, especially when they are teamed up with a flash or similar to clamp the mouth shut.
 
Jointed snaffles do have a head raising action, I agree with this. It is also easy to teach the horse to flex in them and soften to the contact. Surprisingly enough, the horse does not find this contradictory as it is used in different ways for different requests (e.g. advanced mare -just moving the hand position tells her whether to bring her front up and power up for passage, or to lower and stretch down for long-rein walk, or to chill-out and amble round the paddock etc.).
Both jointed and non-jointed snaffles, and any other bit, can be agonising to a horse if it is in the wrong hands. It is the person on the end of the bit and/or lack of training and/or bad memories from the past that make a horse not accept a soft contact and respond to light signals (aids). [and/or physical problems of course]
Fully agree that the horse should not have its nose clamped shut with a tight noseband though (was it Iris Kellet who said people had to ride better if she took the noseband off?).
 
Wagtail said:
Exactly. Single joints can be agonising for some horses if they are not bent in the middle to avoid pressure on the pallete. The horse raises its head to try to escape the pressure. Not all horses have a problem with single joints (especially if they are lucky enought to have a high upper pallette), but many do. I personally hate single jointed snaffles unless they are ergonomically shaped, especially when they are teamed up with a flash or similar to clamp the mouth shut.
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Yes of course, if you pull.
 
SpringArising said:
Single joints DO have a head-raising action as they push into the soft palate and exert pressure on the bars of the mouth.

Double joints don't.
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They do if you pull and I'm not contradicting that. I am trying to explain why and offering up the correct way of using the snaffle.

People pull on their reins rather than lifting them and even in Sylvia's books she explains the reason well.
 
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Snaffles raise the head, curbs lower the head.

Single jointed snaffles do not dig into the roof of the mouth unless the head is higher than the hand, which is why InHand bridles have Mullen or straight bar snaffles.

Double jointed bit can be extremely uncomfortable if the plate in the middle is too long, as the joints to the plate bump over the bars. The horses lower jaw bones are very narrow and the bearing surface very thin.

OP flexion at the poll is the end result of quality work, with horses hind end engaged and the horse accepting the bit with a quiet mouth. Lateral flexion is the result of riding quality circles. Both take time, and being a heavy horse owner myself poll flexion is hard for them as they are generally thick through he jowl.

Be patient!
 
ycbm said:
Agree with this. I am beginning to hear my cob breathing roughly now he is doing higher level work with more flexion :(
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I agree with this my he cob can't get his breath well when working in a more advanced outline (we've had to stop at medium) but will go all day galloping in a field and jumping
 
ycbm said:
Agree with this. I am beginning to hear my cob breathing roughly now he is doing higher level work with more flexion :(
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blitznbobs said:
I agree with this my he cob can't get his breath well when working in a more advanced outline (we've had to stop at medium) but will go all day galloping in a field and jumping
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Interested to hear how you achieve a more advanced outline with a single jointed snaffle that causes the difficulty in breathing... sounds concerning and I don't blame you for changing bits. Genuinely interested to hear what degree of flexion/bend you ask for that causes the issue.
 
tallyho! said:
Interested to hear how you achieve a more advanced outline with a single jointed snaffle that causes the difficulty in breathing... sounds concerning and I don't blame you for changing bits. Genuinely interested to hear what degree of flexion/bend you ask for that causes the issue.
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I use a ns verbidend (double jointed) bit ... he was fine til elementary but at medium to get enough engagement for the canter work he needed to lift the front end a bit more ... in not saying he never goes behind the vertical(as this I his evasion of choice - learned unfortunately from his previous existence in a showing home) but I spend my life pushing his neck out at all levels..
 
tallyho! said:
Interested to hear how you achieve a more advanced outline with a single jointed snaffle that causes the difficulty in breathing... sounds concerning and I don't blame you for changing bits. Genuinely interested to hear what degree of flexion/bend you ask for that causes the issue.
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It's a conformation issue. The heavier type of horse is thick through the jowl, with the higher level of neck the flexion at the poll causes pressure on the windpipe.

This is why when choosing a horse for dressage you need one that is fine through the jowl.


A well schooled horse should be able to do all the advanced movements in a snaffle.
 
tallyho! said:
Interested to hear how you achieve a more advanced outline with a single jointed snaffle that causes the difficulty in breathing ......... Genuinely interested to hear what degree of flexion/bend you ask for that causes the issue.
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Mine's in a verbindend (actually the Jeffries copy) as well, to get the tongue room. When engaged, they port, it's a very clever engineering fudge that gets over the no port rule!

I'm asking for collection with half halts, but when his head gets near the vertical, he's cutting off his air supply and starts to gurgle. He's half Clydesdale.
 
Tnavas said:
It's a conformation issue. The heavier type of horse is thick through the jowl, with the higher level of neck the flexion at the poll causes pressure on the windpipe.

This is why when choosing a horse for dressage you need one that is fine through the jowl.
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I'm sure you are just pulling my leg! :D
 
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