I think I need to change dog club

[Titchy Reindeer]

Hey everyone, I'm not sure there's really a point to this post apart from I'm feeling quite sad over it all and would quite like some confirmation that I'm not over reacting.

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not the best dog trainer in the world. I have a good grounding on the theory and know how I want to work, but I still need a lot more practical experience and probably organisation when it comes to my own dogs.

On Sunday, I was at the dog club where I'm a volunteer dog trainer. I passed the qualification in March. I gave the lesson as usual when I'm there and the president who does have a trainer qualification albeit probably from 20 years ago and another trainer who doesn't have a trainer qualification but used to compete his dogs in ring where there. As an affiliated dog club, we're supposed to only teach using positive reinforcement methods. However, every time a new member arrives with a dog in a normal flat collar or a harness, it's generally in a choke collar (sorry, they call them "training collars") before it's even reached my lesson and I often don't have them for the first lesson, so by the time they get to me, I already have owner that has been taught to yank on the lead. I also have the president reminiscing about his past dogs, some of which sound frankly dangerous, and telling everyone how you have to show them who's boss, sometimes by shaking the dog. The two other trainers will also interfere (sorry, help) in my lesson, generally by showing people how to better yank on their dogs collar.

The final straw was after the lesson and there were just the 3 of us left. They then started trying to persuade me that an electric collar (sorry, "recall collar") was what I needed for my own dogs because I said I wouldn't take Monster out with the horses because his recall wasn't good enough. Apparently, I won't even need to use it (well I will at some point or Monster won't know what it is) and I don't have to have my dog yelping in pain, I can use a lower setting (so that's fine then, I can just torture him gently), and I'm already using negative methods because I have him on a lead (sorry, guys leads don't need to be negative, and Monster doesn't see it as negative if his enthusiastic reaction to me picking it up and putting it on is anything to go by). Oh, and it wouldn't hurt much more and do less damage than a long line on a collar. When I pointed out that I only attach the long line to a harness, I was told that harnesses are made for pulling (well they don't have to be).

The other trainer told me that basically his dogs had their freedom because they wear a "recall collar" on walks so he never has to put a lead on them and they wear a "anti-runaway collar" in the garden to stop them escaping. I also know that one of them quite badly hurt his wife when she tried to interfere with his fence running, but apart from that, they're well behaved.

I think I prefer having a dog with more limited freedom, he gets walks on a lead, has a garden and over half an acre of orchard to run around, I do let him off on walks in places I know and when the stars align: good visibility, middle of the day so reduced chance of wildlife around, no stock around, no people around and he's shown that he's attentive to me at that point. He's also never tried to escape from the garden despite most likely being physically capable of it and even with some serious temptations on the other side (dogs, cats, etc...). If I can't take him out on rides without using an electric collar, then I don't want to take him out on rides. I will keep on working on his (and Liberty's) recall and maybe one day, one or both will be ready to come out riding with me but if not, well at least my dogs seem rather content and I can live with myself.

 

[CorvusCorax]

People training in ring sports, particularly in the past, are going to have been dealing with genetically very tough and driven dogs and the methods of the past are unlikely to be necessary or applicable for a normal training class with normal pet dogs.

Whilst I am not using them, I absolutely do believe that remote training devices have a place when used as an 'invisible line' and as a communication method, but only when appropriate and when properly conditioned and introduced and that can take weeks and months and not everyone has that sort of knowledge, skill, timing or patience. I appreciate you are venting, but emotive words like 'torture' and 'pain', I do not recognise from a device I have held against my own cheekbone and experienced a feeling like a fizzy drink being spilled on my skin, or a vibrate setting, which is completely different to the belt from an electric fence, which people are happy to subject their horses or livestock to.

Having said all of that, they don't sound like great people/trainers, and not respectful of your choices so it is probably best if you moved on.

 

[skinnydipper]

I think you have done well to stick it out this far @Titchy Pony.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

People training in ring sports, particularly in the past, are going to have been dealing with genetically very tough and driven dogs and the methods of the past are unlikely to be necessary or applicable for a normal training class with normal pet dogs.

Whilst I am not using them, I absolutely do believe that remote training devices have a place when used as an 'invisible line' and as a communication method, but only when appropriate and when properly conditioned and introduced and that can take weeks and months and not everyone has that sort of knowledge, skill, timing or patience. I appreciate you are venting, but emotive words like 'torture' and 'pain', I do not recognise from a device I have held against my own cheekbone and experienced a feeling like a fizzy drink being spilled on my skin, or a vibrate setting, which is completely different to the belt from an electric fence, which people are happy to subject their horses or livestock to.

Having said all of that, they don't sound like great people/trainers, and not respectful of your choices so it is probably best if you moved on.

Thank you for your answer. I will admit to have never even held an electric collar, let alone tried one on myself (have tried the electric fence several times though). They may have their place in some very specific circumstances, but they shouldn't be available to any idiot (I include myself in these) and should definitely not but pushed at someone as an easy option to a training issue, especially when training issue is not something vital to the dogs survival or well being.

I think you've hit the nail on the head in that the other trainers can't seem to tell the difference between ring practice and pet dog training. They look very confused at loose lead walking (as in the dog doesn't need to be "at heel" as long as he's not pulling on the lead) and the idea that I don't care if a dog walks to heel on the left or the right. They seem to consider pet dog training as some sort of beginners ring, which for most people it is not, they just want to be able to take their dog to the park without having their arms pulled out of the sockets.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

I think you have done well to stick it out this far @Titchy Pony.

Thank you. Unfortunately options are rather limited around here, but I've already tried a different club a little further away, so I will get back to them and see if they still want me. I feel sorry for my hoopers coach at current club, she's brilliant and only uses positive methods and I own half the hoopers team of four dogs.

 

[tda]

Looks like you're setting up a new club then ☺ there must be a demand for it.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Thank you for your answer. I will admit to have never even held an electric collar, let alone tried one on myself (have tried the electric fence several times though). They may have their place in some very specific circumstances, but they shouldn't be available to any idiot (I include myself in these) and should definitely not but pushed at someone as an easy option to a training issue, especially when training issue is not something vital to the dogs survival or well being.

I think you've hit the nail on the head in that the other trainers can't seem to tell the difference between ring practice and pet dog training. They look very confused at loose lead walking (as in the dog doesn't need to be "at heel" as long as he's not pulling on the lead) and the idea that I don't care if a dog walks to heel on the left or the right. They seem to consider pet dog training as some sort of beginners ring, which for most people it is not, they just want to be able to take their dog to the park without having their arms pulled out of the sockets.

I've tried pretty much everything on myself but I would say that a collar used appropriately is a long process and one that requires a lot of understanding, not just whack it on and press a button and off you go.

There are lots of elements of sports training which are applicable to pet dog training, but a good trainer will tailor the training to the dog and the handler rather than try a one size fits all approach. There are too many variables in terms of the handler's ability and the dog's ability and genetics. It's also why I do not really like group classes. The old guard need to realise, like I had to, that most people just want to be able to walk their dog down the street without pulling on the leash or going mad at other dogs. If new members want to go further and eventually get into sports, they need to make it look like fun, and brow beating them will not help, clubs cannot survive without members and scaring them all away is not the best way to do that....

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

Looks like you're setting up a new club then ☺ there must be a demand for it.

There would probably be a demand for it, but I don't yet have the time, the space, the experience, or the craziness to set up my own. Maybe one day...

 

[9tails]

You could set up with the other coach and advertise what you won't teach. Along the lines of "Learn to walk and recall your dog without choke chains, electric collars and hard yanks. A safe place to socialise and train without excessive force"

 

[TheOldTrout]

I couldn't stay training in a club where other trainers interfered in my classes. In your place, I would be looking for another dog club.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Another vote for 'new club' I'm afraid. Two reasons.
1)There aren't 2 separate leagues of dog training, calling for different methods. There isn't something inferior or amateur about training a pet dog. Having a good recall in the park when someone is throwing a frisbee for another very excited dog & there's a children's football game going on, is every bit as demanding for a dog as doing an obedience competition or rounding up sheep. (You can (and I do) teach very hyper working-strain border collies to do sheep work by using only positive reinforcement.) It sounds like you will always be the poor relation in your present club.
2)These other instructors have demonstrated a lack of understanding of the basics of training theory. If they don't understand the disadvantages of negative reinforcement their training might not be cruel if they are careful but it will be slower and less effective and who knows what the people they are teaching will feel they have been given permission to do?
I wouldn't fancy your chances of changing their minds. In my experience opinions on dog training are set in stone at quite an early age. You can teach old dogs new tricks quite easily but old humans are a nightmare! Have the courage of your convictions and walk!

 

[stormox]

I remember when I first went to a KC reg DTC in the 70s. My first lesson was the correct way to put on a choke collar. But at the end of the 10wk course, nearly all dogs walked. Nicely on the lead, in and out of other dogs and had basic recall and stays on lead.
Some of us then went on to exemption shows, open shows and up the classes.
None of the trainers were paid, and all were more than willing to help and encourage us beginners. Prongs and e-collars were definitely not allowed though, the KC was actively against Sch.
Now, dog training has become only private clubs, its a business - trainers want paying, some extortionately. You walk your dog on a harness carrying a "treat bag" for reward. No aversive training is allowed, even putting your dog gently into sit.
Are dogs in general better behaved or happier? I'm not sure. All dogs used to be let off lead when you reached the park, I never remember a fight. Dogs would sniff nose, tail, circle and walk on. Nowadays people are scared if they see an off lead dog trotting along minding it's own business, or assume the dog will come over and cause trouble.
I would say to you, Titchy Pony, appreciate the training you have had from the others, get a qualification and start up your own dog training business your way.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

I remember when I first went to a KC reg DTC in the 70s. My first lesson was the correct way to put on a choke collar. But at the end of the 10wk course, nearly all dogs walked. Nicely on the lead, in and out of other dogs and had basic recall and stays on lead.
Some of us then went on to exemption shows, open shows and up the classes.
None of the trainers were paid, and all were more than willing to help and encourage us beginners. Prongs and e-collars were definitely not allowed though, the KC was actively against Sch.
Now, dog training has become only private clubs, its a business - trainers want paying, some extortionately. You walk your dog on a harness carrying a "treat bag" for reward. No aversive training is allowed, even putting your dog gently into sit.
Are dogs in general better behaved or happier? I'm not sure. All dogs used to be let off lead when you reached the park, I never remember a fight. Dogs would sniff nose, tail, circle and walk on. Nowadays people are scared if they see an off lead dog trotting along minding it's own business, or assume the dog will come over and cause trouble.
I would say to you, Titchy Pony, appreciate the training you have had from the others, get a qualification and start up your own dog training business your way.

I think you may have misunderstood. The dog club I was going to is an association. You pay to become a member, but it is not a business. I qualified earlier this year to teach as a volunteer, investing my own time and money to do so (over here in France, it's a different piece of paper to teach dog training professionally). I have no intention of setting up professionally any time soon or even ever.
I originally joined the club to spend quality time with my dog and stayed to learn more about dogs in general. Over the couple of years I've been there, the trainers and people I appreciated and use positive methods have left one after the other, I suppose now it's my turn.

 

[CorvusCorax]

My club is a club, certainly not a business and no one is getting paid, the trainers pay the membership fee the same as everyone else. Private training has definitely damaged the club structure. globally. You will pay more for the first consultation with a lot of private trainers than you will for an annual single membership at my club. One of the people who comes is a private trainer, with lots of qualifications, their dogs cannot sit. They do no work at home. But they charge clients for dog training.

Back in the day, dogs did what they were told, but they looked unhappy and were stressed. In a lot of modern training, the dog lives in a world of beige (which is also stressful) as people are being conditioned to think they are abusing their dog if there is any negative consequence for undesirable or dangerous behaviour. Weirdly enough, there is a middle way.....

 

[maya2008]

I agree that you need to look for a club that promotes your method of training, so you can be happier and become more proficient in that method. Worth a longer drive to be happy.

 

[stormox]

I think you may have misunderstood. The dog club I was going to is an association. You pay to become a member, but it is not a business. I qualified earlier this year to teach as a volunteer, investing my own time and money to do so (over here in France, it's a different piece of paper to teach dog training professionally). I have no intention of setting up professionally any time soon or even ever.
I originally joined the club to spend quality time with my dog and stayed to learn more about dogs in general. Over the couple of years I've been there, the trainers and people I appreciated and use positive methods have left one after the other, I suppose now it's my turn.

I didn't realise you weren't in England, sorry. Here, all Dog Clubs used to be KC reg and they were licensed to hold shows. The instructors paid to be members as well as the pupils clients whatever you call them. We all basically helped each other move up the obedience grades if you stayed after your initial course and joined the club.
There were associations too, like the BAGSD, that held their own training classes.
No one profited from a club, but private "competition trainers" have taken over from the Dog Clubs for competitive people.
And there are other private trainers who teach pet dogs (for want of a better word) to do Good Citizens etc.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I didn't realise you weren't in England, sorry. Here, all Dog Clubs used to be KC reg and they were licensed to hold shows. The instructors paid to be members as well as the pupils clients whatever you call them. We all basically helped each other move up the obedience grades if you stayed after your initial course and joined the club.
There were associations too, like the BAGSD, that held their own training classes.
No one profited from a club, but private "competition trainers" have taken over from the Dog Clubs for competitive people.
And there are other private trainers who teach pet dogs (for want of a better word) to do Good Citizens etc.

BAGSD still exists and has member clubs/classes. I've competed to a high level through club training and so have many others. If I need extra help then I will consider paying someone, or sometimes I drive a ten hour round trip to another club for help, which I get for free. Sometimes trainers pay for training with others, because pretty much everyone needs help from someone who is better than them.

 

[lme]

I once made the mistake of taking my young male Saluki to an outdoor training class full of working dogs. We only went once as he wasn't prepared to put up with dominance based shite from the trainer. On the other hand, the trainers at a village hall based club were brilliant with my reactive rescue sighthound bitch, allowing her to sit to one side and watch the other dogs training, while nibbling treats.

 

[stormox]

BAGSD still exists and has member clubs/classes. I've competed to a high level through club training and so have many others. If I need extra help then I will consider paying someone, or sometimes I drive a ten hour round trip to another club for help, which I get for free. Sometimes trainers pay for training with others, because pretty much everyone needs help from someone who is better than them.

Yes, my crossbreed became Ob Ch and took me to Crufts 4 times in the 90's training alongside people who wanted an obedient pet. There wasn't so much of a distinction then, or so many money grabbing private trainers.
I only mentioned BAGSD as it was the only association (OP mentioned association) I could think of that ran training classes.
I used to love going to dog club

 

[CorvusCorax]

I still do love going. Mostly
Still enough amateurs doing their thing at various world championships in the last few weeks.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

Well, it's done. I've just sent an email to the club's president to let him know I won't be returning and why. I'm not sure it will change his approach but at least I didn't vanish into thin air. I spoke to the hoopers coach on the phone on Saturday to let her know, I didn't want her to find out through some else. Now I just need to see if there's somewhere else I can join. I am signed up for a "puppy class" training course beginning of November so should see quite a lot of people from the wider area, so I might be able to do some scouting of possible places to try.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

Euh, that went well, I got back a hastily worded, misspelled not quite comprehensible email back saying I was emitting unfounded accusations against him. It's rather annoying when I took the time to provide politely worded feedback citing only facts as I saw them, at a moment where I wasn't feeling emotional. I have no intention to get into an argument, so just wrote back and told him I was providing feed back in case it was of use in the future, he could make of it what he wanted and not to bother replying because I'd blocked him. I think I'm well out of there, though no doubt my "ears will be whistling" and "I'll be covered for winter" as the French say on Sunday.
"ears will be whistling" : someone's talking about you
"Covered for winter": they're not saying nice things about you

 

[skinnydipper]

Yep, you are better off out of it.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

Yep, you are better off out of it.

Definitely, though I still feel sad. I just wanted to slip away quietly and on good terms. I also noticed he only mentioned that the "accusations" against him were unfounded. I wonder if he's planning to throw the other trainer who was present under the bus if anything gets out...