Ideal outline for a horse, what’s your opinion?

[Zoemary]

Everyone seems to have different ideas and understanding as to whether or not a horse is correctly working on the bit or whether they are behind the vertical / over bent etc. What’s your opinion?

Also my mare over the past two weeks has started to accept the contact and slowly start to round up, we still have a long way to go but I’d like opinions, tips, ideas.. anything on how’s shes looking/how to improve. (Pictures) Thanks!

 

[be positive]

I think there are different ideas on what we are looking for in a horse working well and accepting the contact but a horse that is behind the vertical is usually easy enough to see and there should be no difference of opinion when the front of the face is clearly behind the vertical as shown in your 2nd photo, the 3rd, in canter, is better as she is taking the contact more forward and pushing well from behind which is lifting her shoulders.

I would be very careful about asking her to "round up" and concentrate on bending your elbows, lifting your hands a little more and allowing her to go forward and find her own balance, see if she will take the hand forward and remain soft, it is not easy to correct once they learn to go btv so better not to let it happen and certainly don't encourage it at this stage of her training.

 

[Zoemary]

Thank you! It’s not me riding her I’m these pictures, opinions always needed

 

[Mule]

I think you are looking for a horse that is using it's back so the top line should be round and fully through rather than just the head down and the back slightly softer than a hollow horse.

Afaik when the back is soft that's when a horse can raise its shoulders and develop real power in the hindquarters. A soft back is more indicative of correctness than head position. A sign of a soft back is that the gaits become more bouncy and balanced. Things like riding corners are much smoother. A good test is to go to sitting trot and see how comfortable it is.

Some horses who are thicker around the gullet will have head positions that are less vertical than lighter built types. So that isn't an ideal way to judge correctness.

You also have to make sure the horse is tracking up and has impulsion as they can often look nice but are just jogging along.

 

[catkin]

All the 'outline' does is indicate how the horse is working through it's body.

An 'ideal outline' is not fixed either - it depends upon the horse, it's shape, level of training and the work it is doing (and 'ideal outline' for a Derby-winning racehorse looks very different to a grand prix dressage horse, and they both look different to a proud native pony in the showring). Think about the way the body is working as a whole rather than get fixed with the idea of a set position for the horse's head.

 

[Zoemary]

All the 'outline' does is indicate how the horse is working through it's body.

An 'ideal outline' is not fixed either - it depends upon the horse, it's shape, level of training and the work it is doing (and 'ideal outline' for a Derby-winning racehorse looks very different to a grand prix dressage horse, and they both look different to a proud native pony in the showring). Think about the way the body is working as a whole rather than get fixed with the idea of a set position for the horse's head.

Okay thank you

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I agree with those above - an 'outline' (horrible word) should come from the horse working correctly from behind, then the neck and head will automatically be in the 'right' place. many cobs, such as the one in the OP, are thick through the throat and can't bring their head btv without force from the rider. The fact that this horse is btv in at least 2 photos says a lot about the quality of the riding, imo. The rider *should* use more seat and leg than hand to encourage/allow the horse to work from behind.

 

[Zoemary]

I agree with those above - an 'outline' (horrible word) should come from the horse working correctly from behind, then the neck and head will automatically be in the 'right' place. many cobs, such as the one in the OP, are thick through the throat and can't bring their head btv without force from the rider. The fact that this horse is btv in at least 2 photos says a lot about the quality of the riding, imo. The rider *should* use more seat and leg than hand to encourage/allow the horse to work from behind.

That’s great thank you, ill bare in mind how the rider in the pictures is riding her and use more leg, seat with lighter hands myself

 

[SpringArising]

She looks very on the forehand so I think some pole work exercises would really help!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

She looks very on the forehand so I think some pole work exercises would really help!

She does, even in the first photo where she is also btv - quite an achievement for the rider! I agree about pole work but hacking over varied terrain will be the best strategy for getting her balanced and off the forehand, imo.

 

[Fanatical]

I could go into great detail to the whys and wherefores and how it is achieved, but to answer your question of an ideal outline, the horses poll should be the highest point, the nose should be forward keeping an 'open throat latch' and the horses face should be on the vertical.

 

[JFTDWS]

An 'ideal outline' is not fixed either - it depends upon the horse, it's shape, level of training and the work it is doing (and 'ideal outline' for a Derby-winning racehorse looks very different to a grand prix dressage horse, and they both look different to a proud native pony in the showring). Think about the way the body is working as a whole rather than get fixed with the idea of a set position for the horse's head.

This largely - the outline (by which I mean the general shape of the horse) depends hugely on its level of training and the work it's doing at that moment. The shape and positioning of the neck (and, indeed, the rest of the body) should be different in extended trot when compared with the same horse in piaffe - and completely different to a young horse performing basic work at the start of its training.

The "ideal" outline for an advanced horse is contentious - even hugely successful dressage horses are accused - sometimes reasonably - of not being classically correct, while those deemed classically correct by one classical school may not be ideal to another, or not impressive enough for top marks in competition.

It's harder still to determine the "ideal" outline for a novice horse because it is, by definition, still developing towards the ideal. Not all horses develop equally across all aspects of their training, so for one horse, with its particular conformation and musculature, one outline might be ideal for that stage in its development, but would equally be a less than ideal outline for a different horse.

However, it is always better to have the horse on, or just in front of, the vertical than behind it, and the aim - far more than head position - should be for the back to be lifted, abdominal muscles engaged, weight being taken behind, and for the horse to be moving straight, with freedom of movement but without tension, into a soft contact. If the horse is tense, forced, crooked or backward, and/or is heavily on the forehand, the outline, and the work is not yet correct.

 

[nikkimariet]

hacking over varied terrain will be the best strategy for getting her balanced and off the forehand, imo.

Hacking = great for building general strength and balance.

But pole (and school) work will encourage use of the back whilst training the horse to work more correctly into the hand and increasing the balance required for the type of work required here.

 

[Zoemary]

Hacking = great for building general strength and balance.

But pole (and school) work will encourage use of the back whilst training the horse to work more correctly into the hand and increasing the balance required for the type of work required here.

I agree with those above - an 'outline' (horrible word) should come from the horse working correctly from behind, then the neck and head will automatically be in the 'right' place. many cobs, such as the one in the OP, are thick through the throat and can't bring their head btv without force from the rider. The fact that this horse is btv in at least 2 photos says a lot about the quality of the riding, imo. The rider *should* use more seat and leg than hand to encourage/allow the horse to work from behind.

I tried some schooling with her today myself,

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Hacking = great for building general strength and balance.

But pole (and school) work will encourage use of the back whilst training the horse to work more correctly into the hand and increasing the balance required for the type of work required here.

Schooling does NOT have to be done in an arena, it can just as easily be achieved while hacking. It is my belief that every rider should aim to improve the horse on every ride, regardless of where that takes place.

 

[catkin]

Schooling does NOT have to be done in an arena, it can just as easily be achieved while hacking. It is my belief that every rider should aim to improve the horse on every ride, regardless of where that takes place.

Absolutely.
For some ponies it's actually easier to teach them the rudiments of lateral work and turns on the forehand etc out hacking as they 'get the point of going sideways' around parked cars and opening gates etc etc.

 

[YorksG]

A good exercise to get a horse to use its back end more than its front, which can be done on hacks or in the school, is five walk, five trot, five walk and five trot strides, repeated as you wish. If five is too short an interval then ten strides is a good starting point.

 

[Mule]

The walk to canter transitions done in quick succession is great too. It's also a great way to get them more foreward. Mine gets very excited when we do them. It's very funny🐎

 

[catkin]

A good exercise to get a horse to use its back end more than its front, which can be done on hacks or in the school, is five walk, five trot, five walk and five trot strides, repeated as you wish. If five is too short an interval then ten strides is a good starting point.

This is a great exercise - though if the pony is getting a bit good at counting then you can mix it up - 5 strides of each, then 4 strides, then 3, then back to 4, and back to 5....... good too if the rider is feeling a bit anxious as it takes concentration to keep to the right number of strides - not recommended on a busy road though!

 

[tristar]

the ideal outline is the one most suited to the horses stage of training, ie the outline that allows it to work in a way that encourages the horse to make further progress.

 

[milliepops]

the ideal outline is the one most suited to the horses stage of training, ie the outline that allows it to work in a way that encourages the horse to make further progress.

agree with this

In my view there's the "end goal" GP competition type outline that reflects an end-goal GP way of going, and many many appropriate work-in-progress ones along the way. Some of which may not be technically correct but can still be appropriate for that point in the horse's training. That's in addition to the natural variance between different types. My Welsh will always tend to be more IFV because of her conformation. My WB is one of those born-on-the-bit types. Because she lacks strength she goes a bit poll low sometimes. it's not a desirable end goal but it is not inappropriate while we concentrate on developing swing, engagement and throughness, there are many stepping stones IMO and little compromises to be made along the way. The main thing is to be aware of what is happening, why, and making sure that the feel from the horse is still good when making those compromises (and the frame is not fixed but can be changed easily)

 

[Mule]

agree with this

In my view there's the "end goal" GP competition type outline that reflects an end-goal GP way of going, and many many appropriate work-in-progress ones along the way. Some of which may not be technically correct but can still be appropriate for that point in the horse's training. That's in addition to the natural variance between different types. My Welsh will always tend to be more IFV because of her conformation. My WB is one of those born-on-the-bit types. Because she lacks strength she goes a bit poll low sometimes. it's not a desirable end goal but it is not inappropriate while we concentrate on developing swing, engagement and throughness, there are many stepping stones IMO and little compromises to be made along the way. The main thing is to be aware of what is happening, why, and making sure that the feel from the horse is still good when making those compromises (and the frame is not fixed but can be changed easily)

I wish mine was one of the born on the bit types 😁

 

[milliepops]

I wish mine was one of the born on the bit types 😁

hahah doesn't mean she stays on the bit just that her head dangles off her neck at the right angle naturally, and she has that lovely natural U shape under the jaw. as she's still quite weak she is still prone to random giraffing when she's tiring a clear indication to me that she's due a stretch!

 

[Sleipnir]

In my experience, a well trained horse does not need a rider or any gadgets to show a good outline, which basically means a true self-carriage.

 

[paddi22]

the ideal outline is the one most suited to the horses stage of training, ie the outline that allows it to work in a way that encourages the horse to make further progress.

I think this quote should be printed on t-shirts and given to everyone. A lot of peoples training doesn't even factor in the horses conformation or where the neck sits and how open the throatlatch is.

As for the arena vs hacking discussion. We just got back from a training talk with one of the countries top equine specialists and he said the most common issues in the leg that they see are caused by people schooling circles in the arena too much. He recommended more people school out hacking. He said he understands how dressage riders DO need to practise in arenas, but as a result vets see the results of the forces on the horses in turns and the tendon and ligament damage it does. He broke down the forces on various parts of the horses legs when turning a horse on a circle in an arena. After that talk I am definitely limited arena schooling to the unavoidable moves. A lot of the other moves can easily be done in field and hacking.

 

[Mule]

I think this quote should be printed on t-shirts and given to everyone. A lot of peoples training doesn't even factor in the horses conformation or where the neck sits and how open the throatlatch is.

As for the arena vs hacking discussion. We just got back from a training talk with one of the countries top equine specialists and he said the most common issues in the leg that they see are caused by people schooling circles in the arena too much. He recommended more people school out hacking. He said he understands how dressage riders DO need to practise in arenas, but as a result vets see the results of the forces on the horses in turns and the tendon and ligament damage it does. He broke down the forces on various parts of the horses legs when turning a horse on a circle in an arena. After that talk I am definitely limited arena schooling to the unavoidable moves. A lot of the other moves can easily be done in field and hacking.

Is it the circles themselves that are problematic or is it circles in combination with the arena surface?

 

[paddi22]

He was saying riders, especially dressage riders do an excessive amount of tighter circles and turns repeatedly. And even on a good surface it puts a massive amount of pressure on one side of the horses hooves and up the leg. He said a lot of arena surfaces cause excess stress as well, if they aslightly too deep or hard. It really made me rethink how and where i school.

 

[Mule]

He was saying riders, especially dressage riders do an excessive amount of tighter circles and turns repeatedly. And even on a good surface it puts a massive amount of pressure on one side of the horses hooves and up the leg. He said a lot of arena surfaces cause excess stress as well, if they aslightly too deep or hard. It really made me rethink how and where i school.

I've recently started to feel more uneasy about circling. So is the answer to do as little circles as necessary or is there some other exercises that have the benefits of the circle but are less strenuous?

 

[paddi22]

there was a bit of a debate over that and how it would work in reality, especially with competition horses. The gist of the end debate seemed to be to do more work on straight lines where possible, instead of just automatically doing everything on a circle. And trying to school more on hacks on straight lines. He said when they analyse how people school, they do way more circling and turns than straight work

There was an interesting part in the talk where we were discussing an ex sulkie racer i have, and how i imagined her legs would eb in ribbons from battering up a road so much at 30mph. and he said the chances are she would probably have less leg issues than a dressage horse, as all her work would have been done in a straight line.

 

[Mule]

there was a bit of a debate over that and how it would work in reality, especially with competition horses. The gist of the end debate seemed to be to do more work on straight lines where possible, instead of just automatically doing everything on a circle. And trying to school more on hacks on straight lines. He said when they analyse how people school, they do way more circling and turns than straight work

There was an interesting part in the talk where we were discussing an ex sulkie racer i have, and how i imagined her legs would eb in ribbons from battering up a road so much at 30mph. and he said the chances are she would probably have less leg issues than a dressage horse, as all her work would have been done in a straight line.

That's something with hunters too. They work hard but it's on straight lines and they get a long time off.