Idle curiousity on Sctoland's right to roam

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indiat

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Hi all, so, after a heated discussion with my mother, who insists that in Scotland you can go where you like and do what you like, is this really true? Do you guys have the best hacking in the world because you can't be kept off any land? Also, wild camping seems to be popular, does this mean people can just pitch up in your field and stay awhile? I always thought it was about responsible access and that while yes, there is no trespassing laws in Scotland, this doesn't give you the right to utility. She seems to think if you want to ride your horse on someone's land you can or exercise your dog, you can, but I thought it was just the right to ride or walk through? Before anyone's gasket explodes, my mother owns neither horse nor dog, so she can't practice what she preaches! :D
 
There are some rules, such as you can't ride on mown grass, golf courses, things like that.

You also can't repeatedly school in someones field, for example.

But the bottom line is yes you can go wherever you want within reason, as long as you are sensible :)
 
Yes but realistically people mostly stick to tracks in my experience. We have loads of forestry commission forest. I ride in stubble fields, when available, I would not in a million years enter a grass field or anywhere with stock on it.

I think walkers are more of a problem than horse riders when it comes to the right to roam. For one, trying to open some of the gates is a waste of time.
 
The reason why we got into this argument is that while I was on public right of way I wouldn't let the dogs off the lead to hoon around a hay field. My argument with her was basically, yes, I have the right to walk through here, I don't have the right to USE it. She says otherwise. Access surely doesn't equate to utility in Scotland, does it? Otherwise, why would people buy land? Please tell me I am right! The words "idiot" and "moron" may have been bandied about by both parties
 
As others have said we do have a right of responsible access although there are some exceptions. For example you can't just walk through someones gardens as they have a right to keep the curtilage of their house private. In honesty though most people tend to stick to tracks etc. I don't think I have ever ridden in a farmers field or anything similar.
 
indiat said:
The reason why we got into this argument is that while I was on public right of way I wouldn't let the dogs off the lead to hoon around a hay field. My argument with her was basically, yes, I have the right to walk through here, I don't have the right to USE it. She says otherwise. Access surely doesn't equate to utility in Scotland, does it? Otherwise, why would people buy land? Please tell me I am right! The words "idiot" and "moron" may have been bandied about by both parties
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You could do that yes, but say the ground was wet and you trampled over it on the same bit a thousand times til it was muddy, that would contravene the act. If the hay was lying in bouts that would be a crop so a bit more of a grey area if you let the dogs run around on it I think. It's common sense really. If it's a grass field and you aren't going to leave anything behind to show you were there, there would be no harm.

Shouldn't think there was any hay lying in bouts in Scotland this week tho :(

Mum is always right, don't you know that??
 
FfionWinnie said:
You could do that yes, but say the ground was wet and you trampled over it on the same bit a thousand times til it was muddy, that would contravene the act. If the hay was lying in bouts that would be a crop so a bit more of a grey area if you let the dogs run around on it I think. It's common sense really. If it's a grass field and you aren't going to leave anything behind to show you were there, there would be no harm.

Shouldn't think there was any hay lying in bouts in Scotland this week tho :(


Mum is always right, don't you know that??
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Common sense though is a rare commodity! You have sheep - so people have the right to walk through your sheep fields with their dogs, in your farmyard too I presume and look in doorways and so on? You say they aren't allowed in gardens but if you have a large garden I presume it is legal?
 
The bottom line is if you are causing quantifiable damage, the landowner can still sue you! The myth that there is no law of trespass in Scotland is just that, a myth. Cause someone damage and they can bring an action to recover the monetary value of that loss. Simple.

And if FW goes galloping around in direct re-seeded stubble she might be surprised to find herself in court being sued for damagng the CROP of grass that has been sown there!

So, yes, it is 'free access' but with responsibility. And there may be local by laws restricting that freedom. I do know that wild camping is now prohibited around certain lochs because people did not do it responsibly but left litter, lit fires, etc.

As usual, commonsnse applies. Unfortunately, commonsense is a scarce commodity.
 
indiat said:
But I presume a garden, no matter how large, is part of the curtilage of the house?
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You have a right to privacy. How much privacy and where might be for the courts to sort out. A lot of British law is vague for a purpose, so it can fit the situation -- or not as the case may be. :)
 
So, you landowners in Scotland, does it cause you problems? We have enough trouble with the stupid public on footpaths, the thought of free rein would be the end, but perhaps there isn't much pheasant shooting up there where you need undisturbed game cover? Surely it upsets the grouse?
 
LJR said:
There are some rules, such as you can't ride on mown grass, golf courses, things like that.

You also can't repeatedly school in someones field, for example.

But the bottom line is yes you can go wherever you want within reason, as long as you are sensible :)
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Well, if only it were that simple ....................... try hacking from A to B and you will find it almost impossible, the gates are locked or there are no gates, I told off by the BHS representative because I was walking down a lane [on foot], told I was "on her curtilage", she also told me there was no good hacking near her yard [there was 5000 acres of forestry a mile away], and a yard offering DIY told me I could not ride on the track which cut right through their farm ..., but I should stick to the road. The estate I kept my horse on [at great expense], had gates with chains and padlocks, apparently to stop random people using quadbikes, though it did nor stop theives taking the estate gates .... these were replaced with gates with reversed hinges, chains and padlocks. The local windfarms have chains and padlocks and cattle grids with kissing gates. Oh, and one could not ride near the gamekeepers house in case the pheasants got a fright, even though they were only penned there for a month
 
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Dry Rot said:
The bottom line is if you are causing quantifiable damage, the landowner can still sue you! The myth that there is no law of trespass in Scotland is just that, a myth. Cause someone damage and they can bring an action to recover the monetary value of that loss. Simple.

And if FW goes galloping around in direct re-seeded stubble she might be surprised to find herself in court being sued for damagng the CROP of grass that has been sown there!

So, yes, it is 'free access' but with responsibility. And there may be local by laws restricting that freedom. I do know that wild camping is now prohibited around certain lochs because people did not do it responsibly but left litter, lit fires, etc.

As usual, commonsnse applies. Unfortunately, commonsense is a scarce commodity.
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Dr there are very very few direct drilled crops in Scotland and please credit me with a bit of sense for knowing both what DD is and whether any of my neighbours do it. They do not, like most of Scotland, the plough is king here!
 
Clodagh said:
So, you landowners in Scotland, does it cause you problems? We have enough trouble with the stupid public on footpaths, the thought of free rein would be the end, but perhaps there isn't much pheasant shooting up there where you need undisturbed game cover? Surely it upsets the grouse?
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Never had a stranger* in the field in the 20 odd years I had horses in it at my dads. There are a lot less people here ;)

*if you dont count some stray lambs and calves!
 
Clodagh said:
So, you landowners in Scotland, does it cause you problems? We have enough trouble with the stupid public on footpaths, the thought of free rein would be the end, but perhaps there isn't much pheasant shooting up there where you need undisturbed game cover? Surely it upsets the grouse?
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The foot paths were there already so I doubt it's very different to what you have. Yes people will moan about it and yes some people will take advantage and do damage but is that down to the act, I doubt it, those folk would have been doing those things regardless.

My own fields are only accessed through my drive way and back onto other fields. I've never had anyone trying to come through to get to them.

My work fields have many rights of way through them and those are the ones where most dog attacks occur. Indeed I can't think of a single "accompanied" dog attack on my livestock on a non footpath field in 15 years. A few by dogs out on their own but not by people out with their dogs. On footpaths, plenty.
 
I think the thing to bear in mind is there is a lot of open moor land and rough land here. Many of which isn't fenced in. Its more like, if you fancy climbing that hill - you can! People don't actively trapse through a farmers field for the hell of it.
 
Clodagh said:
So, you landowners in Scotland, does it cause you problems? We have enough trouble with the stupid public on footpaths, the thought of free rein would be the end, but perhaps there isn't much pheasant shooting up there where you need undisturbed game cover? Surely it upsets the grouse?
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well, I don't have much land but no, hasn't caused me problems and like FW said, riders keep to tracks, many of the gates you just can't open anyway. The forest near me is my best hacking-I have the codes for the gates and tip off the owner if I see any one on quads etc up there.

There are of course drove roads etc over moorland and grazing but mostly people keep to the trails/paths as its too darn boggy not to. The only problem a neighbouring farmer had was when a mountain biker got stuck in a bog in a field full of cows and calfs and he went and rescued him. I have permission to ride on some of two neighbouring farmers' fields at certain times of year but all are full with stock right now and so I'd not dream of it anyway.

We have a lot of walkers as near a local beauty spot, I had one idiot with an out of control spaniel who took two rare birds-the owners were on the road. Despite the moorland there is no grouse shooting in this wee spot as both farmers are anti and very little pheasant shooting (no big shoots).

I'd not let that put you off Scotland as we have a lot of weather when nobody goes out anyway :D and there's a lot less people here, less horses and less competition for the outdoors. We aren't all marauding about trying to piss people off and here there is enough good hacking without trying to ride in among livestock and there's very little arable anyway.
 
Clodagh said:
It means when we downsize we will never consider land north of the border. :-)
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You are in no danger of having your land trespassed, we do not see wild campers in every field, and there are few hunts. Yes people have the right to roam, but this is not exercised universally, and there are no bridleways.
 
For more information about responsible non-motorised access in Scotland (which is what the law - Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 -allows for, rather than a 'right to roam'), visit http://www.outdooraccess-scotland.com :)
If riders/walkers/cyclists etc believe their access rights are being obstructed, they should contact their local authority's access officer.
 
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Interesting thread, when I was a regular up in Inverness I never knew where I could walk and it felt very strange when my then current girlfriend said I could go where I liked without having to ask permission. I am used to marked footpaths and bridleways round Surrey as well as a lot of council and common land.
What about the Queen's Balmoral estate?
She's got about 50,000 acres if memory serves me correctly, could people wander around her land?
 
cremedemonthe said:
Interesting thread, when I was a regular up in Inverness I never knew where I could walk and it felt very strange when my then current girlfriend said I could go where I liked without having to ask permission. I am used to marked footpaths and bridleways round Surrey as well as a lot of council and common land.
What about the Queen's Balmoral estate?
She's got about 50,000 acres if memory serves me correctly, could people wander around her land?
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probably, Brian Souter tried to stop folks crossing his land, as have others, but the right has been upheld , more or less ....
 
Yes, there is always there "freedom of the hills"which many of the foreign landowners of large estates have difficulty getting their heads around.

I had this carefully explained to me when I was a child, on top of Schiehallion. i will explain it to my grandson, when he is old enough. :)
 
I went on holiday with my dog to scotland and was told by a local you can just go everywhere as long as you respect it. But alot of places were fenced gated and had some had signs saying private. If it was open and no livestock in I'd probably walk on it but personally I would feel really uncomfortable opening a some ones gate to enter land especially if I was on a horse. Do people really do that and don't get some angry farmer hurtling after them in his landrover?! After being so unwelcome offroad in my area I can't really wrap my head round it
 
Slightly off topic, I like watching historical dramas (ie pride and prejudice). They seem to just walk/ride over whatever land they wish. Did it really used to be like this?
 
cremedemonthe said:
Interesting thread, when I was a regular up in Inverness I never knew where I could walk and it felt very strange when my then current girlfriend said I could go where I liked without having to ask permission. I am used to marked footpaths and bridleways round Surrey as well as a lot of council and common land.
What about the Queen's Balmoral estate?
She's got about 50,000 acres if memory serves me correctly, could people wander around her land?
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yes you can walk around the Balmoral area, of course you wouldn’t go wandering up the driveway and sit on the front steps. I had the great pleasure of riding right through the grounds and past Her Majesty’s stud last summer as part of a BHS sponsored ride :)
 
FfionWinnie said:
Dr there are very very few direct drilled crops in Scotland and please credit me with a bit of sense for knowing both what DD is and whether any of my neighbours do it. They do not, like most of Scotland, the plough is king here!
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You may know but I trust you are not my only reader (!) and that my post will be read by others, not necessarily in Scotland.

Do you have any statistics for DD??

It is also fairly common to under sow a cereal crop with grass and I certainly wouldn't be too pleased to have you scampering about on mine either. Did you not know that?:p

The best thing, if in doubt, is to ask. It is called 'respect'.

With four big hairy German shepherds (not to mention their scruffy unshaven owner) and a few "Beware of Guard Dogs" signs scavenged from the recycling centre, I don't usually get bothered by ramblers. Or horse riders on my under sown grass for that matter. :)
 
wench said:
Slightly off topic, I like watching historical dramas (ie pride and prejudice). They seem to just walk/ride over whatever land they wish. Did it really used to be like this?
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Yes, I think it was. Google "enclosure acts". Much of the countryside was unfenced so you could hunt and ride more or less where you wanted.
 
There have been some well publicised cases here in Scotland, one did involve Ann Gloag(sister of Brian Souter)'s home at Kinfauns outside Perth. Her rights to privacy were upheld.

In my opinion the difficulty with the wording of the legislation is the term "access". Does access mean passing from A to B, or does it mean going into a field and cantering round the edge for fun?

According to the Act a horse rider is within their rights to ride on a crop, as long as they keep to the edge and do not do any damage. However, I feel that just going into a field of hay in June or worse newly sown barley in April, and riding around the edge, even if it is dry, should not be permitted. Especially if there is no particular reason to do so, in terms of competing a route.

It is a common practice in this part of Scotland at least, to undersow grass with a cereal crop, so that stubble may actually be hiding a new crop of grass trying to establish.

As farmers we would much prefer if riders asked what was acceptable rather than assume they were not doing damage, in the spirit of cooperation at least.

I had a conversation with a dad that I know through the Pony Club about this very recently. I'd seen his daughter and her friend take their ponies into another farmer's field of young barley, they did stick mostly to the edge, but at one point rode right across about 100m of the middle of the field. I spoke to the dad and suggested that this wasn't really on, and perhaps they could find another hack to go on, I tried to be as tactful as possible but he was defensive and basically quoted the Act to me. His attitude was that if it says access then any access is acceptable, even if there is no particular point to it.

This is what BHS Scotland had to say a couple of years ago:


The British Horse Society (Scotland) is concerned that some horse riders are
behaving irresponsibly by damaging crops as they ride through or around cropped
fields, and have issued a plea to all riders to familiarise themselves with their access
rights and responsibilities.
Fields of growing crops are excluded from access rights but the Scottish Outdoor
Access Code states quite clearly that horse-riders, as well as other access takers,
can exercise their access rights around the margins of fields in which crops are
growing, even if the margin has been sown with a crop. Grass grown for hay and
silage is regarded as a crop – and therefore excluded from access rights - when
newly sown or when it reaches above ankle height (about 20cm), when it is far more
susceptible to damage. Access rights can be exercised in fields of stubble and fields
where grass is grown for hay or silage before it reaches this stage of growth.
Chairman of BHS Scotland’s Access Advisory Group, Vyv Wood Gee said: “We
appreciate that the current agricultural support system puts pressure on farmers to
crop right up to the field edge. Access rights still apply around the field margin, even
on the crop when there is no alternative, but riders are responsible for doing
whatever necessary to minimise any damage or disturbance wherever they are riding
– including areas such as crop margins or field headlands. If there is a parallel track,
or other alternative to riding around the edge of the crop, then any responsible rider
should use it.”
BHS (Scotland) has issued the following guidance to help riders, based on the
Scottish Outdoor Access Code.
When exercising access rights, riders should avoid causing unnecessary
damage by:
• Using any paths or tracks.
• Using the margins of the field. If the margin is narrow or has been
planted, keep close to the edge in single file.
• Ride along any unsown ground (providing this does not damage the
crop).
• Using parallel or alternative routes on neighbouring ground.
Remember to take account of weather and ground conditions. The wetter the
ground, the stickier the soil, and the greater the number of riders, the more
easily damage is likely to result.
 
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