If not, why not...?

[AndyPandy]

Right, here's one.. just out of interest:

Did your mare get in foal this year?
If yes, how many cycles did it take.
If no, then do you know why? Did your vet do diagnostic work to ascertain why she didn't get in foal, and if so what did they do?
Has anyone shelled out loads of money, and now has an empty mare with no answers as to why she didn't get in foal?

 

[Wisnette]

[ QUOTE ]
Right, here's one.. just out of interest:

Did your mare get in foal this year?
If yes, how many cycles did it take.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I tried to get 2 mares in foal this year. One with the local vet and one with a well known repro specialist. The mare with the local vet was inseminated 3 times without success and the one with the specialist 4 times without success.

[ QUOTE ]

If no, then do you know why? Did your vet do diagnostic work to ascertain why she didn't get in foal, and if so what did they do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither vets have a clue why the mares didn't take. They are both fit healthy, no fluid and conceived first time last time. To be fair the specialist did say he might be able to do a bit of extra investigative work for me but the mare is costing me a fortune in keep.

[ QUOTE ]

Has anyone shelled out loads of money, and now has an empty mare with no answers as to why she didn't get in foal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I've got 2.

 

[AndyPandy]

A self-proclaimed repro vet, or a genuine repro vet? Same or different stallions? Did they have endometrial cultures and cytologies performed?

 

[Wisnette]

Most definately a genuine repro vet.

He was described as a genius on the thread a few days ago!

Different stallions from different studs in Holland. Only common factor seems to be I own both mares!

No, no cultures or cytologies were done.

 

[AndyPandy]

Interesting... I would have thought that the vet in question would have done that after one failed attempt. I often post the list below, but I think it's important.

Repeated failures could be due to:

Anestrus (lactational/true/behavioural)
Chromosomal abnormalities
Nymphomania
Delayed uterine clearance
Endometritis (infectious/non-infectious)
Urovagina
Pneumouterus
Cervical abnormalities
Ovarian tumours
Uterine fibrosis
Endometrial cysts
Uterine sacculations
Blocked oviducts
Hormonal issues
Stallion incompatibility
Reduced immune response

I'd definitely get these investigated and try again... it's a shame that you've had a bad time of it... good luck if you go for it again!!!

 

[Wisnette]

Thanks for that AP.

Out of those, which do you think would be the most likely reasons for a fit healthy 5 year old mare who took first time in '06, foaled safely in '07, not to conceive this time?

Both vets are of the view that there is no reason for either mare not to conceive - its just bad luck. I would tend to agree but when I tell people its just bad luck that NEITHER mare is in foal despite multiple tries, it sounds a bit hollow.

Edited to add, perhaps said vet has done cultures - the mare is away from home and I'm on a vets package so don't really know precisely whats been done but its never been mentioned.

 

[KarynK]

Went back to the very, very dark ages this year as stallion was next door! Used a handsome gelding to tease who the girls liked a lot.

TB mare took first time 2002 aged 7 with her first foal covering every other day.

2003, failed to conceive with foal at foot to very good quality frozen, no apparent reason, sewn up as a precaution but nothing after 2 attempts gave up as it was getting late.

2004 to stud early inseminated with same frozen semen no foal at foot took 1st attempt.

2005 Inseminated same frozen semen with foal at foot – did not take.

2006 - very young stallion, no foal at foot, to stud later in year travelled her back and forth and she got very stressed when ready to cover, covered again failed to come back into season scanned but no embryo

2007 to stud early covered once with scanning took 1st time no foal at foot.

2008 covered at home every other day from 1st cycle after foaling heat, no stress easy to cover – 2 attempts did not take.

Figured there was no point in wasting money calling a vet out at this stage as the pattern appears to be early and every other year, so she will go to stud early next year for the benefit of scanning with a diagnostic if necessary. She has big strong correct foals which she looks after really well and as she is empty I don’t wean until 10 months or so. My take on the matter is that I will not push her and will take a cracker every other year! Only tried this year as it was so convenient.

Her daughter a maiden went to same stallion at home covered once before she went off, then seen playing with the geldings the next morning, I thought oh well., but had her scanned a couple of weeks ago and have a good heat beat! It will be interesting to see if she adopts her mother's strategy in the future!

 

[AndyPandy]

If there was no fluid, then...

Endometritis (infectious/non-infectious)
Cervical abnormalities/damage
Uterine fibrosis
Endometrial cysts
Hormonal issues
Stallion incompatibility
Reduced immune response

are the most likely... it's very tough to say... and 7 failures is very unusual... I would not be happy putting it down to bad luck.

 

[charliesarmy]

Took my 19 year old mare last summer tried with the same stallion all summer had no joy vet said there was no problems with cycles,fluid so incompatability was banded about so they asked on her last covering would I consider a different stallion (by this point I'm thinking she's just to old!!!!) tried a different stallion and 14 day scan embryo present 21 day scan mare was empty

vet thought it was probably because it was Sept so not a strong follicle as it had measured smaller than previous months!!!

Was in too minds wether to return her this year but decided too only to find the stallion that I knew worked with her has died

so had to try another (horse putting it about now!!! uch to her delight!!) didnt work first AI then her cycle slowed down (vet recks due to the weather) put her on a 10 day course of regumate 2nd AI worked shes now 9 weeks pregnant....

 

[Wisnette]

Interesting. AP whats reduced immune response?

 

[AndyPandy]

A mare may have a compromised immune system, and thus be extremely susceptible to uterine infections when any foreign substance is introduced. Uterine infusion with the mares own plasma may help in these situations.

 

[AndyPandy]

[ QUOTE ]
tried a different stallion and 14 day scan embryo present 21 day scan mare was empty

vet thought it was probably because it was Sept so not a strong follicle as it had measured smaller than previous months!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably more likely due to the number of attempts previous to the attempt with a different stallion. The chance of pregnancy establishments and maintenance falls with every AI/covering beyond and including a 3rd cycle... so the rest period after pregnancy loss probably allowed for her uterus to recover

[ QUOTE ]
didnt work first AI then her cycle slowed down (vet recks due to the weather) put her on a 10 day course of regumate 2nd AI worked shes now 9 weeks pregnant....

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure whether or not the Regumate will have made the difference here... 2 attempts is fairly average for AI

But great news that she's now pregnant. Fingers crossed for you!

 

[charliesarmy]

Your right about the Regumate it might/probably was just a coincidence...but who cares now

we are in business!!!!
Interesting thread I think we all expect it to happen straight away with all the scanning of mares,semen,conditioning ect ect so its good to see other people have struggled too....

 

[AndyPandy]

Absolutely - I'm hoping that it will give us an idea of areas which are common problems... or areas which aren't looked at enough... we'll see

 

[tikino]

my own mare who is a maiden mare went in foal first cycle amd was ai to a german stallion while at a very good stud. my friends mare was at the same stud to the same stallion and was inseminated 3 times bang on time as they are scnned regularly daily sometimes 2/3 x daily and not in foal it cost £1500 including stud fee and she is empty. the vet said 1 Ovarie is not working and cysts are the probible cause but think she has had enough with his mare and she is properly barren

 

[Springs]

[ QUOTE ]
Right, here's one.. just out of interest:

Did your mare get in foal this year?
If yes, how many cycles did it take.

YEP, got 3 on the way,

Scary Mary 8yo - ran with spring (Springfield Synphony) for a couple of days, so covered naturally - didn't think she was in foal as she kept appearing to come into season. Had her scanned (4 months) recently (seamed be be getting fat) and foal on the way, cost £28 for the scan!

Jasmin 17yo - naturall 2nd attempt by Prmitive Proposal, had to have fluid drained and stitches. due for 3rd scan in a couple of weeks, Scanned in foal at 14 days.

Poppy 10yo - AI at twenlows, scanned on a Sundayearly July, folical present, droped Spring off for collection on tuesday, returned home collected poppy (with frend dosn't travel well) back to twem, scanned & AI'd dropped back off at home, returned & collected Spring & went Show Jumping. Scanned in foal at 15 days!

You could say we have been very lucky.

 

[cruiseline]

I've had a very expensive, c@@p year with my mares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I have several for early covering next season.

 

[cloppy]

my mare has had 3 cycles of frozen semen and still not pregnant 1st and 3rd cycles nothing but 2nd cycle twins which were too close to pinch. Ive had no explanations as to what my mare has had done just that its "one of those things" It was my thread where im consdering using "the genius" next year. Out of interest what has all this cost other people? I have paid 1k in vets fees alone for these 3 cycles, and has the stallion owner offered other options for next year?

 

[cruiseline]

You really don't want to know what my vets fee have been!!!!!!!

All stallion owners have given me returns for next year, either with the same mare or a different one.

 

[juliehannah58]

Maiden mare took second attempt with fresh semen. First time although she was cycling and had a good size folicle I think it was just a bit early in the year, she also seemed to have a corpus leutum that wasn't dispersing quickly enough, although we didn't treat her with oxytocin or anything the next time round. Second time she was only insemminated once and took. She's now about 4 months pregnant

 

[southsidestud]

[ QUOTE ]
I've had a very expensive, c@@p year with my mares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I have several for early covering next season.

[/ QUOTE ]SNAP

3 mares 1 in foal my vet says its been a hard year to get anything in foal apparantly quiet a few are having troubles?

 

[AndyPandy]

I must reply to this one, with a quote from another breeding forum... the post was written by Jos Mottershead, of Equine Reproduction LLC, USA:

[ QUOTE ]
On: Sunday, April 08, 2007 9:16 AM Anya Getman wrote:

> We're apparently having a strange year?

----------------------------------------------------

I love it when people write this....:

----------------------------------------------------

On: Wed Jun 23, 1999 7:33 pm N. Clark Rechtin wrote:
> it is definitely a strange year

----------------------------------------------------

On: Fri May 4, 2001 8:29 am MLFarms@... wrote:
> This seems to be a strange year

----------------------------------------------------

On: Fri Aug 17, 2001 7:27 am islanfarm@... wrote:
> This is a very strange year

----------------------------------------------------

On: Mon Sep 9, 2002 10:58 am jsimicek@... wrote:
This has been a strange year.

----------------------------------------------------

On: Mar 26, 2003 3:05 pm SpotsNStripesRch@... wrote:
> this seems to be a strange year

----------------------------------------------------

And that's not even including the "bad year" posts - of which there are 20
in the archives using that term specifically - and about which I wrote on
Wed Jun 7, 2006 4:22 pm:

"Before we enter into a 'bad year here' saga - a couple of weeks ago you
might have noticed that I said in a post that it was about time to start to
see the "it's been a bad year here" posts coming in....

"

In fact the only really strange thing about strange years is that 2004 and
2005 don't seem to have been "strange" - but then perhaps they were "bad", I
didn't dig through the archives on each post there....

Bottom line?

If you're breeding horses, every year is a bad year. For someone.

Check management before complaining about strange or bad years - it's more
common to find that it's bad management than a bad year...

[/ QUOTE ]

 

[Wisnette]

[ QUOTE ]
A mare may have a compromised immune system, and thus be extremely susceptible to uterine infections when any foreign substance is introduced. Uterine infusion with the mares own plasma may help in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I see. Presumably she would also be susceptible to all sorts of other infections, colds, snotty noses, etc?

Its nice to know I'm not the only one in this situation.

 

[sallyf]

See i dont get the its been a hard year to get mares in foal.
We moved early May so have had a quieter year than normal as did no advertising but of the visiting mares to our own stallions all bar one have been in foal 1st time here and the other second time.
We didnt even start to cover anything till the second week in May.
My own mares
1st one AI'd to own stallion in foal 1st time
2nd mare resorbed after using frozen semen from german stallion so used own stallion and in foal 1st time to him
3rd mare mare empty to local stallion with fresh semen ,timing perfect and no problems so next time used our own and in foal again 1st time to him.
Last mare more difficult twice empty to a german stallion with chilled but mare getting inflamation although no fluid so had an excuse which was more difficult to deal with.
Figured it could be the extender so used fresh from own stallion and in foal 1 st time to him with no problems.
Vets think some sort of immune response issue with that type of extender as no bother before with other extender.
So 15 mares covered with our own and of those 14 in foal 1st time after problems with other stallions.
Dont know why i bothered using outside stallions but as far as difficult year goes not from where i am standing as nearly all of our visiting mare come into the suseptable catagory of being old,pooling fluid etc.
We have one left to recover that was scanned in foal 1st time but has resorbed so is waiting to be AI'd sometime this week

 

[toffeesmarty]

Interesting thread.
My mare foaled in June. She was a maiden and needed two goes to get in foal AI using frozen. First time was in foal at 16 days but not at 30 day scan. Reinseminated and vet put onto regumate. This time she remained in foal.
Now, I want to put in foal again next year. Would you recommend using Regumate straight away or waiting to see what happens if not successful first time. Cost wise there's little difference between putting her on regumate for 100 days or a second AI but rather not have to try doing both again as that was expensive!

 

[AndyPandy]

Regumate is overused. Rates of early embryonic death are higher with frozen semen, so you were very lucky to get two pregnancies on two cycles. It is likely that the resulting embryo from the first insemination was a "mutant" which would have died anyway, whether or not she was in Regumate (due to the egg being fertilised by a sperm cell with damaged genetic material, caused by cryoinjury during the freezing process). The second pregnancy was obviously healthy, and would have probably survived whether or not you put her on Regumate.

See the article:
http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/Regumate.shtml
for more information on Regumate.

 

[christine48]

One mare tried twice chilled didn't get in foal.
She is 20 appeared to cycle on scans (but long cycles 24 days or so) but never teases well. however after foaling a mass was found which did resolve but the uterus now has tipped forward so the vet thinks she ruptured her broad ligament and may retain fluid (though on scan nothing was obvious)

 

[KenRehill]

Regumate is overused
Ovuplant is overused
Prostoglandin is overused
Mare owners are overcharged

The UK industry needs to change.

 

[sallyf]

Ken i agree it is all overused but when vets charge £40 plus vat to visit and then the scan on top which is probably another £35 plus vat im afraid people like us will use chorulon or Ovuplant because if it saves on another 2 scanning visits it will in the end save our customers money.
In an ideal world we wouldnt use anything but it does actually help some of us save our clients money.
I dont bring regumate into that argument though as think that is very overused and something we rarely use.
And i definately agree we are overcharged.

 

[henryhorn]

Three out of four took first time, just two coverings every other day.
Fourth took next season, again two coverings.
It's handy having the stallion on site because they let us know when they are ready by hanging round the field gate looking hopeful!