If passports do not prove ownership then what does?

[Anglebracket]

Does anyone know how to proof that you own your horse? I used to think that the passport is proof, but apparently it only proves the horse's identity. Thanks for reading.

 

[brown tack]

Proof of sale?

 

[navaho]

I guess a receipt saying you bought the horse would be proof of ownership. Another more random one is the documents you have for your car arent proof of ownership either.

 

[Elbie]

Yep proof of sale. The insurance co I worked for would sometimes accept statement from 2 independant people such as yard owner and vet to confirm to the best of their knowledge you are the legal owner.

 

[rubysmum]

i think its a really good question - i have somewhere in my possesion a scruffy bit of paper ,torn out of a jotter, which is a hand written receipt for the big mare, hardly real evidence of ownership
i wil be very interested in what those who are more in the know than myself say

 

[Brandy]

Kind of glad to hear this, as I have a mare on loan who I have had for 13 years. I haven;t heard from her owner for many years, a couple of years before passports became a legal requirement. I have her passport, as I had to apply for it, which I did from the breed society. They wouldn't issue it inmy name, as they had the mare registered with her actual owner. So I have the passport, with the'owners' name on it. I wrote, phoned and emailed lots and lots of times in the lead up to the passport being issued. No response.

I have since moved yards 3 times, and my own address twice.

So am glad that the name in the passport doesn;t prove ownership! In this case anyway.

Who do you reckeon owns my pony?

 

[Anglebracket]

i think its a really good question - i have somewhere in my possesion a scruffy bit of paper ,torn out of a jotter, which is a hand written receipt for the big mare, hardly real evidence of ownership
i wil be very interested in what those who are more in the know than myself say

This is a pretty accurate description of my sales receipt. It only mentions the name of the horse, the name of the owner and the amount paid. However, I also have a vetting certificate which mentions the name of the horse, then name of the owner as well as a description of the horse. So, I am hopeful that the two documents combined might serve as proof.

 

[Kat]

Kind of glad to hear this, as I have a mare on loan who I have had for 13 years. I haven;t heard from her owner for many years, a couple of years before passports became a legal requirement. I have her passport, as I had to apply for it, which I did from the breed society. They wouldn't issue it inmy name, as they had the mare registered with her actual owner. So I have the passport, with the'owners' name on it. I wrote, phoned and emailed lots and lots of times in the lead up to the passport being issued. No response.

I have since moved yards 3 times, and my own address twice.

So am glad that the name in the passport doesn;t prove ownership! In this case anyway.

Who do you reckeon owns my pony?

Her owner, you have admitted above that you have her on loan.

Presumably you don't have a receipt for purchase either.

The passport can be considered as evidence in a case of disputed ownership, in your case the fact you have it but it is in the owners name is good evidence that the pony isn't owned by you. Also your postings on here could be used as evidence if there was an ownership dispute - they prove that you did not believe the horse had been gifted to you or sold to you.

 

[Luci07]

The answer is that none of the above is a legal documentation proving you own your horse. There is no such thing. The best you can do is to have as much "evidence", so name on passport, reciept, vets bills, photos but indvidually, none of these mount up at all.

If you read through the threads on Stolen/Trace horses you will see that people who lose their horses while they are on loan have an awful time trying to get their horse back. The police do not want to know as loaners can claim they did buy the horse/it was gifted/taken in lieu of a debt and people have had to push very hard to get a crime record and to get the police to take it seriously.

So I have a copy of my horses passport, he is DNA registered, chipped and I have photos and receipts. I would hope that this combination would prove he is mine.

And if you any of you are contemplating putting a horse on loan, it would be worth your while to get in touch with forum member MHOL (missing horses on loan) so they can advise you as the best way to safeguard yourself. (notifiying the passport, registering with NED online are 2 of the ways you can do this)

 

[catkin]

Are you sure that the passport does not give ownership?, or is that dependent upon the PIO? - our WPCS passports have pages within them for transfer of ownership to be signed and dated by the vendor, then sent back for registration of change of ownership. The passports also 'belong' to the issuing breed society.

 

[Ally_F]

I wasn't given a receipt when I bought my mare, but the AQHA makes you both fill out forms and send off for a certificate of ownership, which I think is a good idea that should be done by a group body for all horses. I have had my other horse for 10 years and don't have a clue where his hand-written receipt is.

 

[Kat]

The answer is that none of the above is a legal documentation proving you own your horse. There is no such thing. The best you can do is to have as much "evidence", so name on passport, reciept, vets bills, photos but indvidually, none of these mount up at all.

If you read through the threads on Stolen/Trace horses you will see that people who lose their horses while they are on loan have an awful time trying to get their horse back. The police do not want to know as loaners can claim they did buy the horse/it was gifted/taken in lieu of a debt and people have had to push very hard to get a crime record and to get the police to take it seriously.

So I have a copy of my horses passport, he is DNA registered, chipped and I have photos and receipts. I would hope that this combination would prove he is mine.

And if you any of you are contemplating putting a horse on loan, it would be worth your while to get in touch with forum member MHOL (missing horses on loan) so they can advise you as the best way to safeguard yourself. (notifiying the passport, registering with NED online are 2 of the ways you can do this)

Good post - there is no definitive way to proove you own anything except land, it is only a problem if there is a dispute and you need to proove you own the item, in which case documents can be evidence.

One good bit of evidence that hasn't been mentioned so far is insurance, in particular the records of information given to insurers about ownership and who has been insuring the animal.

 

[Kat]

Are you sure that the passport does not give ownership?, or is that dependent upon the PIO? - our WPCS passports have pages within them for transfer of ownership to be signed and dated by the vendor, then sent back for registration of change of ownership. The passports also 'belong' to the issuing breed society.

Passports should be held by the "keeper" of the animal, which could be a loaner or the owner of a livery yard where the horse is on full livery, or the rider in the case of competition horse being competed by a pro.

 

[Wagtail]

I don't have a receipt for one of my horses, just an email transferring ownership. I have his passport and it is in my name. I insured him for what I thought he was worth as soon as I got him on loan. Owner signed him over to me when his many problems came to light and she did not want him back as she would have no alternative but to PTS. So although there would be no dispute of ownership (as no one would want him), I do worry about getting any compensation from the insurance should I be forced to PTS. He has the option of retiring with me, but only if he is comfortable in the field (which so far he does seem to be). But if he took a turn for the worst and had to be PTS would an email and a passport plus vet records be enough for the insurance company to pay out?

 

[Faro]

I bought a horse recently from a dealer - no problems there, but the person who had sold my horse to the dealer wasn't happy with another horse she'd got from the dealer in exchange for my new horse and wanted the horse which is now mine back from the dealer.

To clarify, she didn't really want my new horse back physically, but just wanted to come to an agreement with the dealer that she would get back the exchange value of the horse that is now mine.

As negotiations between old owner and the dealer were apparently getting nowhere, I was concerned that my new horse could potentially be demanded back from me so, as a BHS member, I called the BHS legal helpline. The chap on there advised me that as I had a receipt for the horse, that was sufficient title of ownership and I couldn't be forced to send my new horse back - the pervious owner, who sold/exchanged her with the dealer, would have to settle for cash or another form of agreement to the value of the exchange, with the dealer (if that makes sense?).

I haven't had to show the receipt at all, but was advised that in the unlikely event that matters between the previous owner and the seller went to court, because I have a legitimate receipt, I had good grounds and the horse could not be taken away from me. I also have this horse's passport, but it is not the passport that provides me with title of ownership.

 

[a kind of magic]

I think registration papers may have a little more weight behind? I don't know.

 

[Anglebracket]

I don't have a receipt for one of my horses, just an email transferring ownership. I have his passport and it is in my name. I insured him for what I thought he was worth as soon as I got him on loan. Owner signed him over to me when his many problems came to light and she did not want him back as she would have no alternative but to PTS. So although there would be no dispute of ownership (as no one would want him), I do worry about getting any compensation from the insurance should I be forced to PTS. He has the option of retiring with me, but only if he is comfortable in the field (which so far he does seem to be). But if he took a turn for the worst and had to be PTS would an email and a passport plus vet records be enough for the insurance company to pay out?

I think it would depend on the terms of the insurance company. Petplan, for example, would pay out the sum insured to the loaner if the insurance is in the loaners name (at least this was the case when I insured a loan horse a few years back).

 

[Clippy]

If you have a piece of paper, (however scruffy) that has a date, a brief description of the horse, a purchase price and is signed by the seller, then I think that should be proof enough.

If you transfer your horses passport into your own name, then you either have a transfer form signed by the last registered owner or the PIA contacts the last registered owner and checks they have sold the horse and they will then put your details in the passport.

 

[frozzy]

Green WPCS passports also have a page where details of animals going on loan or to be produced are noted.

 

[Tinseltoes]

Her owner, you have admitted above that you have her on loan.

Presumably you don't have a receipt for purchase either.

The passport can be considered as evidence in a case of disputed ownership, in your case the fact you have it but it is in the owners name is good evidence that the pony isn't owned by you. Also your postings on here could be used as evidence if there was an ownership dispute - they prove that you did not believe the horse had been gifted to you or sold to you.

PASSPORTS DO NOT PROVE OWNERSHIP. ITS FOR IDENTIFICATION ONLY.Grrrrrrr

 

[Kat]

PASSPORTS DO NOT PROVE OWNERSHIP. ITS FOR IDENTIFICATION ONLY.Grrrrrrr

I didn't say that the passport proves ownership, I said that the passport (what it says and who has it) can be considered as evidence alongside other documents when looking at disputed ownership.

There is no definitive document that will prove ownership. A disputed ownership would ultimitely end up in the county court and a whole host of documents would be disclosed in support of each sides case as well as witness statements.

If I was advising a client I would want to see the receipt for purchase, any loan agreement, the passport and insurance policy documents as a first port of call. I'd then be considering things like livery contracts and bills, vets records and bills, witness statements and any other evidence of the parties intentions such as emails, facebook, forum posts, texts etc.

The passport can help or hinder, depending upon what it says. In the situation above where the passport is in the owners name despite the loaner having possession of it and registering the horse this would tend to support the owner's claim to be the owner. But it isn't proof in itself.

 

[Tinseltoes]

I didn't say that the passport proves ownership, I said that the passport (what it says and who has it) can be considered as evidence alongside other documents when looking at disputed ownership.

There is no definitive document that will prove ownership. A disputed ownership would ultimitely end up in the county court and a whole host of documents would be disclosed in support of each sides case as well as witness statements.

If I was advising a client I would want to see the receipt for purchase, any loan agreement, the passport and insurance policy documents as a first port of call. I'd then be considering things like livery contracts and bills, vets records and bills, witness statements and any other evidence of the parties intentions such as emails, facebook, forum posts, texts etc.

The passport can help or hinder, depending upon what it says. In the situation above where the passport is in the owners name despite the loaner having possession of it and registering the horse this would tend to support the owner's claim to be the owner. But it isn't proof in itself.

I think my bill of sale would pass as proof,its signed by the seller,myself and a wittiness.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I don't have a receipt for one of my horses, just an email transferring ownership. I have his passport and it is in my name. I insured him for what I thought he was worth as soon as I got him on loan. Owner signed him over to me when his many problems came to light and she did not want him back as she would have no alternative but to PTS. So although there would be no dispute of ownership (as no one would want him), I do worry about getting any compensation from the insurance should I be forced to PTS. He has the option of retiring with me, but only if he is comfortable in the field (which so far he does seem to be). But if he took a turn for the worst and had to be PTS would an email and a passport plus vet records be enough for the insurance company to pay out?

I'm no expert, but you have paid the insurance and have an interest in the "insurable risk" so I can't see any problem, I may be wrong, unless you are saying the former owner might object in some way, you can still do a transfer of ownership for a £1.00
If you have claimed to be the owner, it is unlikely the company would "investigate"
I assume the vet would have to give you some sort of paperwork saying it had to be put to sleep on humane grounds, but I don't know if this would apply just because it was "old" or arthritic.
Worth looking in to.
In a recent case involving immediate despatch on humane grounds, the insurance company were pretty sticky because no PM was carried out, the injury was self evident, to the vet at least.

 

[darkhorse123]

i think the fact i paid a few grand by direct bank transfer from mine into previous owners account would also count.
Plus the fact she also came with me to settle horse into new yard - new yo met her as a seller
Since then hes been chipped, freezemarked -all in my name - not forgetting insurance, farriers, vets for injections and teeth since then

OMG - id love somoene to tell me he wasnt mine!!!!


I think the biggest tip i have - is pay by direct bank transfer - that cannot be argued with in any court , especially if its a few grand xxxx

 

[GemBav]

Are you sure that the passport does not give ownership?, or is that dependent upon the PIO? - our WPCS passports have pages within them for transfer of ownership to be signed and dated by the vendor, then sent back for registration of change of ownership. The passports also 'belong' to the issuing breed society.

I didn't get a receipt for my horse but with him being registered with The Arab Horse Society it has a change of ownership part within the passport with a form that has to be sent off to the society. This is signed by both Seller and Purchaser, along with a certificate with all past and present owners, which is updated and stamped/Autenticated by the breed society.

Also as CATKIN states above, his passport remains the property of AHS not me.

Not sure if this is any more proof of ownership than other breed issuers???

 

[Kat]

I think my bill of sale would pass as proof,its signed by the seller,myself and a wittiness.

Maybe if your dispute was with the old owner, but what if you loaned your horse out and the loaner tried to claim the owned him, or a livery yard owner claiming they owned him would things be so clear cut?

 

[Luci07]

On a day to day basis, this is not really an issue for most of us. The issues seem to mainly crop up when the horses go away on loan. We should also, be aware of how this could be an issue if the horse was stolen and then another person bought it in good faith.

But I am interested in the case of a person buying a horse through a dealer, when the original owner then wanted the horse back or the money that horse was worth. There must obviously be some confusion as otherwise why would the poster have been contacted?

 

[Luci07]

I'm no expert, but you have paid the insurance and have an interest in the "insurable risk" so I can't see any problem, I may be wrong, unless you are saying the former owner might object in some way, you can still do a transfer of ownership for a £1.00
If you have claimed to be the owner, it is unlikely the company would "investigate"
I assume the vet would have to give you some sort of paperwork saying it had to be put to sleep on humane grounds, but I don't know if this would apply just because it was "old" or arthritic.
Worth looking in to.
In a recent case involving immediate despatch on humane grounds, the insurance company were pretty sticky because no PM was carried out, the injury was self evident, to the vet at least.

Wagtail - why not just pay the owner £1 as suggested earlier with a receipt than there can be no dispute over who owns said horse.