If you have a very high level of testosterone ...

Snowy Celandine

Snowy Celandine

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... for a woman, should you be allowed to compete in women's events? Would you simply consider it to be a natural advantage like being tall or having big feet, assuming either of those are useful for your chosen sport?

Edited to add: I'm not talking about equestrian events.
 
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The 800m runner?

Must be demoralising being in a race with her. IMO she definitely looks like a man.

I think commentators said yesterday there is a legal challenge to this particular rule ongoing. .

Fiona
 
For me this issue is that for any other female they cannot within the rules increase their testosterone levels to match hers, so for me it's positive discrimination, sad situation all round though...
 
Fiona said:
The 800m runner?

Must be demoralising being in a race with her. IMO she definitely looks like a man.

I think commentators said yesterday there is a legal challenge to this particular rule ongoing. .

Fiona
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It must be demoralising for a swimmer to compete his whole career against Michael Phelps. Or a tennis player against Roger Federer then Novak Djokavic. Luck of the draw.
 
I think it is really difficult for all involved really.
It is my understanding that she has internal testes and no womb/ovaries
So it depends for the purposes of sport what we are going to define as each sex, and if we are sticking to the binary model where you then put people. Because these people are going to turn up to compete because part of what they are is what is making them good, but I suspect also additionally complicated by knowing exactly how much advantage that is bringing and whether that is 'unfair'.

I guess that is where I see it is maybe not just luck of the draw.. so much as sex designation.
 
Yes, because she has, unfortunately for her (and I do feel sorry for her as a person to be undergoing all this public scrutiny at best and abuse at worst), become the focus for intersex athletes even though she's not the only one. However, I also feel sorry for the middle distance runners who are not intersex and who do not have the advantage of extremely high testosterone levels. The whole thing is very complicated if you read about it because some intersex women can have high testosterone levels but their bodies are resistant to it i.e. it gives them no advantage and others still are partially resistant to it. Like you say, it must be demoralising to run against someone who has a huge advantage and one that you cannot replicate without using illegal drugs, no matter how hard you train or how much natural talent you possess.
 
I'm not qualified to judge how much of an advantage it gives but this particular athlete did not run well when the rules forced her to take testosterone suppressants. Maybe I am looking at this too simplistically but if a person has external testes they would not be allowed to compete in women's events so should intersex women with internal testes be allowed to compete or is this unfair to those without testes?
 
I'd love to read an in depth article on the current situation.

As I understand it, the authorities changed rule to use testosterone with cut off value of 10 as deciding factor but this was legally challenged a couple of years ago and still not resolved :(

Most women have testosterone under 3 seemingly

Fiona
 
Snowy Celandine said:
I'm not qualified to judge how much of an advantage it gives but this particular athlete did not run well when the rules forced her to take testosterone suppressants. Maybe I am looking at this too simplistically but if a person has external testes they would not be allowed to compete in women's events so should intersex women with internal testes be allowed to compete or is this unfair to those without testes?
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Thats my view too, but its a v interesting subject. .

Fiona
 
Crackerz said:
Is there a maximum level of testosterone a female athlete can have?
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Fiona's explanation is correct. Intersex women had to have their testosterone levels chemically or surgically altered in order to be able to race under the last but one set of rules but currently there is no upper limit for testosterone levels in place.
 
Actually it is somewhat more complicated than that, this article charts the history of sex definition in sport fairly well. ie it used to be evidence of a Y chromosome at all, even if it didn't make any difference... some athletes will have higher testosterone but not have the appropriate receptors etc. It is mightily complicated
http://www.slate.com/articles/sport...enya_be_allowed_to_compete_against_women.html
 
ester said:
Actually it is somewhat more complicated than that, this article charts the history of sex definition in sport fairly well. ie it used to be evidence of a Y chromosome at all, even if it didn't make any difference... some athletes will have higher testosterone but not have the appropriate receptors etc. It is mightily complicated
http://www.slate.com/articles/sport...enya_be_allowed_to_compete_against_women.html
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It is definitely complicated and I do feel sorry for the individuals concerned.
 
As pointed out in the article I linked if you get to the end, it describes 4 potential athletes having their internal testes removed in order to compete and now that ruling has been changed.

It also makes an intersting point re measuring testosterone got rid of some of the whether they were judging your femaleness issue, changing it to just well you have too much of this in your bloodstream, it doesn't matter why.
 
If you have no womb or ovaries but internal testes that surely would lean you towards being a male rather than a woman?

Difficult subject to treat fairly and without discrimination I think
 
Crackerz said:
Is there a maximum level of testosterone a female athlete can have?
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Paula Radcliffe was saying that is used to be under 3 units of whatever the measurement is I think she said and it's now up to 10, and may have changed again. May have misheard her commentary.

cold_feet said:
It must be demoralising for a swimmer to compete his whole career against Michael Phelps. Or a tennis player against Roger Federer then Novak Djokavic.
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I disagree with this comparison because you hope both Roger Federer and Novak Djokavic are 'clean' athletes and whilst one may be easier to beat than the other, you're not up against someone who's clearly got a hormonal advantage.

Raised testosterone levels are a sign of doping in sport and it gets very blurry when someone has a natural advantage. Katie Ledecky's unbeatable in a swimming pool but afaik she doesn't get the 'well must be more of a man than a woman' comments.

I will say though that the British 800m runner's comments were a bit 'sore loser' like, especially given she came sixth in a final of eight. She didn't lose solely to Caster Semenya, she got beaten by four other athletes too.
 
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teapot said:
Paula Radcliffe was saying that is used to be under 3 units of whatever the measurement is I think she said and it's now up to 10, and may have changed again. May have misheard her commentary.



I disagree with this comparison because you hope both Roger Federer and Novak Djokavic are 'clean' athletes and whilst one may be easier to beat than the other, you're not up against someone who's clearly got a hormonal advantage.

Raised testosterone levels are a sign of doping in sport and it gets very blurry when someone has a natural advantage. Katie Ledecky's unbeatable in a swimming pool but afaik she doesn't get the 'well must be more of a man than a woman' comments.

I will say though that the British 800m runner's comments were a bit 'sore loser' like, especially given she came sixth in a final of eight. She didn't lose solely to Caster Semenya, she got beaten by four other athletes too.
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It's been suggested that all three of the winning athletes in this event are intersex. No idea if that's true but the woman who came sixth was congratulated on getting bronze by another athlete.
 
teapot said:
If true that's a hell of a comment.



That's the one, ta E :smile3:
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It's a heck of a comment if what's true? Do you mean if I just made it up or if another athlete really said it? It's been reported as having been said, that much is true.

I have no idea how we can treat intersex athletes fairly but if more intersex athletes join the women's teams, and apparently there are places where intersex babies are born more regularly, although still rarely, than the norm then women without testes will struggle to compete at all in my opinion. I can't honestly think of a way to be fair to everyone concerned.

Here's the source material and the quote

"In a reference to questions surrounding the sex of other competitors, British 400m runner Nigel Levine tweeted afterwards: "Happy for @LynseySharp for coming 3rd in the women 800m.""

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ses-obvious-hypoadrogenous-women-having-bein/
 
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Snowy Celandine said:
It's a heck of a comment if what's true? Do you mean if I just made it up or if another athlete really said it? It's been reported as having been said, that much is true.

I have no idea how we can treat intersex athletes fairly but if more intersex athletes join the women's teams, and apparently there are places where intersex babies are born more regularly, although still rarely, than the norm then women without testes will struggle to compete at all in my opinion. I can't honestly think of a way to be fair to everyone concerned.

Here's the source material and the quote

"In a reference to questions surrounding the sex of other competitors, British 400m runner Nigel Levine tweeted afterwards: "Happy for @LynseySharp for coming 3rd in the women 800m.""

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ses-obvious-hypoadrogenous-women-having-bein/
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If another athlete actually said it - athletics is bitchy at the best of times but having comments like that thrown about isn't good for the sport. If they're that concerned about never winning/fair competition, why not vote with their feet and not run? That's a genuine question btw.

It's a very tricky area as was the running on blades versus two legs debate.
 
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teapot said:
If another athlete actually said it - athletics is bitchy at the best of times but having comments like that thrown about isn't good for the sport. If they're that concerned about never winning/fair competition, why not vote with their feet and not run? That's a genuine question btw.

It's a very tricky area as was the running on blades versus two legs debate.
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I agree that it's like the blades v two legs debate and also the length of the blades if two athletes with blades are running. Another problem with no real solution or at least not one that will please everyone.
 
teapot said:
If another athlete actually said it - athletics is bitchy at the best of times but having comments like that thrown about isn't good for the sport. If they're that concerned about never winning/fair competition, why not vote with their feet and not run? That's a genuine question btw.

It's a very tricky area as was the running on blades versus two legs debate.
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I found a lot of the comments about Caster Semanya incredibly nasty. I really admired Jenny Meadows for refusing to join in with it. (I think this was at the London Olympics - if not, it would have been at a world championships.)

On a related topic, there was a petition going round on facebook before the Olympics about 2 British athletes in the womens' team who were male to female transitioning but hadn't had the surgery - the petition was saying that they shouldn't be in the team as they shouldn't be eligible. (Similar argument I suppose, about the high levels of testosterone.) I couldn't understand how they could be considered trans women when they hadn't had surgery - but then I just don't understand the whole concept of transitioning. I've no idea, to be honest, whether it was even a genuine petition or a hoax one, given what social media can be like...
 
"I disagree with this comparison because you hope both Roger Federer and Novak Djokavic are 'clean' athletes and whilst one may be easier to beat than the other, you're not up against someone who's clearly got a hormonal advantage. "

This thread is about natural high levels of testosterone. Therefore also 'clean' athletes.

But my comment was referring to the other athletes being demoralised. This surely can't be a good enough reason to exclude anyone.
 
cold_feet said:
This thread is about natural high levels of testosterone. Therefore also 'clean' athletes.
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Devil's advocate moment - if natural high levels of testosterone are allowed, why arn't unnatural levels? How can one athlete have a natural advantage but not fail a dope test but someone with an unnatural level of the same value fail a dope test?

Tricky tricky area imho.

Completely agree that you can't exclude people on the basis of their feelings.
 
Perhaps the simplest, if still not the fairest, method would be to go by the gender on the birth certificate of the athlete. This can still leave problems for intersex people, although the athlete who prompted the OP would still be classed as female.
 
I don't see it a question of hurt feelings. I am imagining someone being the fastest non intersex female elite athlete in the world but still having no chance of winning because she's not allowed to boost her testosterone levels to match that of the intersex women against whom she's racing.
 
There should surely be an upper limit that's different for box sexes as far as testosterone is concerned?

I do think it's unfair that people with a natural but not necessarily 'normal' hormone levels are allowed to compete against people who fall into the traditional zones of hormone levels (sorry that's written really badly!). It's a bit like a runner with a third leg isn't it?

There didn't used to be enough Paralympic athletes for a games did there, maybe there needs to be a separate competition for those that fall in terms twilight zone between male and female.
 
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