Imogen Burrows - a question for you

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Izzwizz

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Hi there, just after your thoughts on this one - friends horse is a big 16.3 warmblood type, not 100% sure what breeding. Shes 5yrs old and wasnt broken til she was 4. Shes done 2 Events last year and 2 this year, Im not into Eventing but am led to believe it was the sort for newbies. She passed a 5 stage vetting in the Summer this year and has now gone lame. To cut it short shes been for full lameness work up, they found djd of the coffin joint and shes having an MRI shortly as vet suspects there could be something else going on and damage to the DDFT has been mentioned. My own mare is 15 and has just recovered from a bad tear to her DDFT within the hoof.

Do you have any thoughts on why such a young horse could suffer this type of damage/injury? Or is it something thats just pure bad luck. Have to say that Im surprised that she could have djd of the coffin joint at such a young age. Since she was bought all she has done is hacking and a little light schooling. I dont think she did much hacking out before my friends family bought her as the person who trained her didnt like hacking out, however the person who broke her did a bit of hacking.

I know you cant say for sure without knowing the specifics of the case but just wondered what you might think. Thanks in anticipation of your reply. Its nice to have a vet posting on here by the way.!
 
No comment on your particular case but I'd like to add my appreciation of Imogen posting so much - I know she is very well thought of, JessPickle can never speak more highly of anyone and I know if I lived in that area I would definitely be seeking Imogen out!
 
Agree, really nice to have an expert's input. Wonder if shes still around tonight, maybe shes got an early start tomorrow. Hope she sees my post as I would love to know what she thinks.
 
Yes that crossed my mind too. Really sad as its a beautiful horse. Big chestnut and paces to die for. Hopefully the lovely Imogen will be along at some point to say her bit.
 
Izzwizz said:
Hi there, just after your thoughts on this one - friends horse is a big 16.3 warmblood type, not 100% sure what breeding. Shes 5yrs old and wasnt broken til she was 4. Shes done 2 Events last year and 2 this year, Im not into Eventing but am led to believe it was the sort for newbies. She passed a 5 stage vetting in the Summer this year and has now gone lame. To cut it short shes been for full lameness work up, they found djd of the coffin joint and shes having an MRI shortly as vet suspects there could be something else going on and damage to the DDFT has been mentioned. My own mare is 15 and has just recovered from a bad tear to her DDFT within the hoof.

Do you have any thoughts on why such a young horse could suffer this type of damage/injury? Or is it something thats just pure bad luck. Have to say that Im surprised that she could have djd of the coffin joint at such a young age. Since she was bought all she has done is hacking and a little light schooling. I dont think she did much hacking out before my friends family bought her as the person who trained her didnt like hacking out, however the person who broke her did a bit of hacking.

I know you cant say for sure without knowing the specifics of the case but just wondered what you might think. Thanks in anticipation of your reply. Its nice to have a vet posting on here by the way.!
Click to expand...

Hello - sorry I try and been around a fair bit but sometimes miss things!!! And THANKS for all the lovely comments - I hope some of this info helps more than a few people. :D

Now, it does sound like you're having a monumental amount of bad luck at the moment....especially in the lower limbs!! :(

It is very difficult to comment on this area without seeing the horse first and lameness, but also not having all the details...however, I would certainly be looking at her foot conformation as a starting point.

In youngsters, DJD can occur, but IME with these cases generally tends to follow a long toe/low heel type of foot balance and also when the position of the pedal bone is assessed on the lateral view xray (side on one) the pedal is very commonly parallel to the ground (flat) or even showing some reverse rotation (sitting in a slightly heel down position).

This of things can lead to undue stress on the DDFT and back of the navicular bursa and bone alter the angle and subsequently forces within the coffin joint.
Mediolateral (side to side) imbalances, frequently seen with a toed in/toed out conformation can cause imbalance in the coffin joint and upwards too....

How is her conformation and shoeing?? Can you post up photos taken from the side and front for me to see?

Gotta go and take care of some ponies now ;) but will read later....

Hope that's a starter...:rolleyes:
Imogen
 
If your friend's horse is a geniune warmblood (with a lost passport), from the continent, it seems to be getting quite common to find this kind of thing. A friend of mine had not one but two four year olds fail the vet this year on xrays with bone changes, (they were sound but not likely to stay that way) one on both fronts and one on one hock.

I think it's partly because on the continent they work the good youngsters so hard to gt their value up to sell them (they have dressage competitions for THREE year olds!) and partly because a lot of the ones they expect to be valuable are barn reared to stop them getting hurt, so they don't get the movement they need to build joints that can stand the wear & tear. If the horse moves really well, is it possible that she has failed xrays on a previous vetting and "lost" her passport and been sold on, or do you know her history from further back ?? Has anyone tried to trace her microchip, she'll have one if she was born on the continent?

For your friend's sake I hope it's just a foot imbalance.

Echo the admiration for Imogen, not only is she unstinting with her time on here, but she's the most open-minded vet I've ever come across. She's single handedly restored my faith in the species :)
 
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Hi Imogen, thanks so much for your reply, its very helpful. Sorry if Ive confused you a bit, its not my horse but belongs to a friend. Shes not on here but Im going to suggest to her she joins and she can have a chat to you herself and maybe get some photos for you to see. So far as I know the horse was bred over here and hasnt come from abroad. Dont know why she wasnt sold in the end last year either so not much help there Im afraid. Im not 100% sure of her breeding, just know shes big and looks like a warmblood but have a feeling she has Thoroughbred in her too, sorry to be vague. My friend moved to Wales with the horse and others earlier in the summer so to be honest I havent seen much of the horse recently.

I was just curious as to your thoughts on this and your comments are helpful. Feet do play a big part in horses health as I have come to realise.

My own horse has recovered remarkably from her tear to her DDFT and we are hacking out on a regular basis, yesterday for 2hrs and mostly in walk. She has egg bar shoes on and will have 2 more shoeings in these before returning to ordinary shoes in the New Year.
This is all on the advice of my vet who diagnosed her in the end and who dealt with her MRI scans. Its a shame that these scans arent more readily used as they are so precise and a fantastic piece of diagnostic equipment.

Once again thankyou for your help, if theres any more to tell I will update.
 
I see...a complicated scenario - I'm glad that this info has maybe of some use for you (or your friend) anyway.

As an aside - we'd love to MRI more often - a fantastic tool and gives us a short, non-invasive method to diagnose stuff....sadly the price and insurers restrict the use....:(:(:(

Anyway, hope the horse is ok and I'd agree with the previous post regarding youngsters, esp warmbloods seeming to suffer more from DJD at younger ages. Frustrating really.

Imogen
 
Just a quick question is djd related or any connection to OCD as I have a warnblood yearling with this problem in his hock ?? He has had the operation to remove all the bone chips and repair the cartlidge just awaiting his recovery now ... It just seems to sound abit similar ??? Thanx
 
fadetogrey said:
Just a quick question is djd related or any connection to OCD as I have a warnblood yearling with this problem in his hock ?? He has had the operation to remove all the bone chips and repair the cartlidge just awaiting his recovery now ... It just seems to sound abit similar ??? Thanx
Click to expand...

OCD (osteochondritis dissecans) is classified in the developmental orthopedic diseases and happensas the horse is growing....failure of the bone/cartilage junction bonding (very simplfied ;)).

DJD (degenerative joint disease) is seen in older ages or subsequent to trauma or injury. Horses with DJD won't get secondary OCD...different things. But horses that have had OCD and been treated often will developed DJD as the joint has been inflammed and damaged by not only the OCD itself, but also the surgical treatment causing osteoathritic (OA) changes. Anytime you go into a joint surgically there is a risk of OA developing down the line....:(

Don't dispair OCD cases frequently do v well post-op.

Hope that's slightly clearer than mud.;)
Imogen
 
ImogenBurrows said:
OCD (osteochondritis dissecans) is classified in the developmental orthopedic diseases and happensas the horse is growing....failure of the bone/cartilage junction bonding (very simplfied ;)).

DJD (degenerative joint disease) is seen in older ages or subsequent to trauma or injury. Horses with DJD won't get secondary OCD...different things. But horses that have had OCD and been treated often will developed DJD as the joint has been inflammed and damaged by not only the OCD itself, but also the surgical treatment causing osteoathritic (OA) changes. Anytime you go into a joint surgically there is a risk of OA developing down the line....:(

Don't dispair OCD cases frequently do v well post-op.

Hope that's slightly clearer than mud.;)
Imogen
Click to expand...

Many thanx Imogen I understand it better now, at the moment 'touch wood' he is doing well and has one more check up to go... Would just like to say like the others it is lovely to have on the forum answering the questions for us I can imagine how busy you must be..

Thankyou once again for answering my question...
:)
 
Just a little update for you Imogen, I spoke to my friend today, the horse is a Holstein/Thoroughbred. I think she will join the Forum and post you some photos to look at on here.

Once again, thanks for your input x
 
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