Improvement is ugly: yes or no?

Lolo

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Armas, you've partly inspired this and I hope you don't mind this thread.

Following Armas' recent threads, I was wondering of anyone else ever thought this. Or if people did think one day things looked bad, and the next they didn't. When I post before and after photos of Reggie, people are impressed with how vastly improved he is. If I posted a SJ video from 18 months ago compared to now, I think you'd be impressed (I hope you'd be!).

But part of me thinks if I showed the bits inbetween like Armas has, you'd all be horrified. Nothing nasty was done, but the bits where old habits were unlearned and new, more difficult but more correct ways of working were introduced, aren't pretty.

Do you agree that improvement isn't necessarily nice to watch, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

(I'm making a video atm which features the improvement journey of Al and Reg, so when I say there's nothing nasty I mean you could publish every video online without worrying...)
 

FfionWinnie

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Yes I agree. My dressage coach points out if the Queen happened to be visiting the yard I shouldn't ride like he has just told me to. Its not that we are doing anything cruel or awful but we are putting in foundations. Kind of like foundations which a great house will be built on one day, you won't see the foundations once the house is there but they are necessary to make sure its strong (I just made that up in case thats not obvious :eek: and I'm quite pleased with it :D).

Funnily enough I was just looking over some of the stuff I have from the last year of my horse and some of it is cringeworthy and I thought she was doing great at the time. I am planning a progress vid when its been a full year and the change is quite something I think :)
 

HollyhedgePippa

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But part of me thinks if I showed the bits inbetween like Armas has, you'd all be horrified. Nothing nasty was done, but the bits where old habits were unlearned and new, more difficult but more correct ways of working were introduced, aren't pretty.

I agree.
 

dafthoss

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Yes I think it can be. When your riding something that's not straightforward, has a bit of history, finds the change physically or mentally difficult then it's not always going to be pretty. It doesn't mean what your doing is cruel or wrong, just that when making changes you won't get every thing right at once.
 

nikicb

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I totally agree. L - you may or may not have watched Cam's recent videos, but I have a feeling that if his previous owner (producer) watched them she would not be impressed. Initially, that is. If you look at him shoulder upwards, previously he was all apparently round and through and now he is a little freer with his head and neck. But previously (and as much to do with him being immature as anything else), looking shoulder downwards, his front legs are working, but his hinds, back peddling. Now he is stepping through and under. Yes, we need to tidy up the front end again and improve the overall picture, but there is progress and development even though it may not seem so initially. xx
 

DabDab

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I think it depends on the eyes watching it - beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that ;)

When you are doing something to effect change, whether it be with a dog, a horse, a child etc. etc., there is always potential for icky moments or longer periods of time, but when your confident that it will have a beneficial outcome then it can still be beautiful. But the person watching has to be able to appreciate the process.
 

Moomin1

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Armas, you've partly inspired this and I hope you don't mind this thread.

Following Armas' recent threads, I was wondering of anyone else ever thought this. Or if people did think one day things looked bad, and the next they didn't. When I post before and after photos of Reggie, people are impressed with how vastly improved he is. If I posted a SJ video from 18 months ago compared to now, I think you'd be impressed (I hope you'd be!).

But part of me thinks if I showed the bits inbetween like Armas has, you'd all be horrified. Nothing nasty was done, but the bits where old habits were unlearned and new, more difficult but more correct ways of working were introduced, aren't pretty.

Do you agree that improvement isn't necessarily nice to watch, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

(I'm making a video atm which features the improvement journey of Al and Reg, so when I say there's nothing nasty I mean you could publish every video online without worrying...)

Completely agree.
 

Pigeon

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For a long time I thought it was.

Now I'm not so sure, as he feels light and happy all the time, and like he genuinely wants to learn.

There was a lot of ugliness up until this point, but I don't think his current way of going is a result of this, I think it is in spite of it. (and I'm very lucky that I have such a forgiving horse)
 

Moomin1

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For a long time I thought it was.

Now I'm not so sure, as he feels light and happy all the time, and like he genuinely wants to learn.

There was a lot of ugliness up until this point, but I don't think his current way of going is a result of this, I think it is in spite of it. (and I'm very lucky that I have such a forgiving horse)

In that case, should every horse go in a 'pretty' way from the outset, without any 'ugly' points?
 

Pigeon

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In that case, should every horse go in a 'pretty' way from the outset, without any 'ugly' points?

I guess it depends on what you would call ugly, but the way I ride now is much less confrontational, progress is slower but the horse is always relaxed and there's never ears back or open mouth. That is 'pretty' to me, a happy horse free from tension. Not saying it has to be in a perfect outline etc etc but just enjoying what it's doing.

I suppose though that with my horses, they're with me forever so I can take as long as I like with the reschooling. If I was a pro or a dealer etc I would have to re-evaluate.
 

Moomin1

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I guess it depends on what you would call ugly, but the way I ride now is much less confrontational, progress is slower but the horse is always relaxed and there's never ears back or open mouth. That is 'pretty' to me, a happy horse free from tension. Not saying it has to be in a perfect outline etc etc but just enjoying what it's doing.

I suppose though that with my horses, they're with me forever so I can take as long as I like with the reschooling. If I was a pro or a dealer etc I would have to re-evaluate.

Does 'ears back' always mean horses are unhappy? Again, I would disagree if the answer is yes. If they are pinned back, yes, clearly pain or discomfort/unhappiness, but otherwise, no.
 

alainax

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I don't think improvement is ugly, but the the road to improvement could be... but I guess that's what you were getting at :)

That the progression towards the next stage may not be pretty, there may be many challenges along the way, yet the overall improvement in the end, was worth the ugly moments.
 

Pigeon

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Does 'ears back' always mean horses are unhappy? Again, I would disagree if the answer is yes. If they are pinned back, yes, clearly pain or discomfort/unhappiness, but otherwise, no.

By ears back, yes, I do mean pinned back.
 

Moomin1

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By ears back, yes, I do mean pinned back.

Erm. I have to say, I have never quite come across a horse who's ears are pinned back during schooling, other than when I rode in riding schools twenty odd years ago. I agree though, if a horse has ears pinned back during schooling, something is very wrong.
 

Pigeon

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I've seen it a LOT when out competing!! Not constantly pinned back (I would assume there was something physically wrong) but horses putting their ears back in response to questions asked of them by the rider.

To be fair, at the last dressage I was at there was someone round the back warming up in draw reins, cantering round with the horse's head so tucked into it's chest it was struggling to balance - bucking every time it came out of a corner to regain it's stride. So maybe it's just my area???
 

Moomin1

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I've seen it a LOT when out competing!! Not constantly pinned back (I would assume there was something physically wrong) but horses putting their ears back in response to questions asked of them by the rider.

To be fair, at the last dressage I was at there was someone round the back warming up in draw reins, cantering round with the horse's head so tucked into it's chest it was struggling to balance - bucking every time it came out of a corner to regain it's stride. So maybe it's just my area???

I fail to see how people can view 'ears back' in response to riders asking aids as a negative?!!! Pinned back, yes. If they are just simply pointing backwards towards the rider that is actually a good response mostly in early stages - the horse is listening to the rider.

I hate draw reins.
 

Pigeon

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There is a big difference to ears back in discomfort/aggression/unhappiness versus listening. When a horse is listening the ears are relaxed at the base, and usually only flick back, one or the other, both pinned back for longer than a moment or two to me signals lack of confidence at best.

ETA - to clarify, when I said ears back I meant this: http://s4.hubimg.com/u/189243_f520.jpg rather than this: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WMLJW9X6BqU/TESJLPXaLoI/AAAAAAAALtQ/KQRu5sUPjSs/s400/trot_bay_nice2.jpg :)
 
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Moomin1

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There is a big difference to ears back in discomfort/aggression/unhappiness versus listening. When a horse is listening the ears are relaxed at the base, and usually only flick back, one or the other, both held back for longer than a moment or two to me signals lack of confidence at best.

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. You said in your original post 'never ears back'. That's a pretty ambiguous statement to make
 

Pigeon

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I just assumed it was fairly self explanatory given the content of the post!! Most people know the difference between listening and pinning the ears.
 

Jesstickle

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I agree Lolo. If you deconstruct something and try and put it back together it can definitely look ugly! Even if you teach a willing subject from fresh there will be points along the way which don't look brilliant I would say.

Especially jumping. I hate jumping schooling vids where you are stopping and backing up before a fence or holding really hard for an extra stride and getting right under the fence and things like that. Worth it but hideous to watch!
 

chocolatepony

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I agree- although I didn't take ugly to mean ears back unhappy horse, more tension and moments of loss of balance, which don't look good but don't mean the horse is unhappy. Good thread!! :)
 

Clava

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I guess it depends on what you would call ugly, but the way I ride now is much less confrontational, progress is slower but the horse is always relaxed and there's never ears back or open mouth. That is 'pretty' to me, a happy horse free from tension. Not saying it has to be in a perfect outline etc etc but just enjoying what it's doing.

I suppose though that with my horses, they're with me forever so I can take as long as I like with the reschooling. If I was a pro or a dealer etc I would have to re-evaluate.

Totally agree, I think any ugliness is nothing to do with the horse but how it is ridden, even a naughty horse is not ugly to me but it can be ridden in an ugly manner which I don't think is necessary.
 

Sussexbythesea

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Ugly moments yes but interspersed with less ugly and sometimes lovely moments with the latter becoming more frequent and the former less frequent as training progresses. Not constantly ugly for months. Still pictures in particular can catch some really ugly moments or really nice ones (I only buy the nice ones :) ) Film gives a better idea of how the horse and rider are going overall or what might have led to the ugliness.

Also agree with Clava it's also about how a training issue is dealt with rather than the issue itself.
 

Brightbay

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Totally agree, I think any ugliness is nothing to do with the horse but how it is ridden, even a naughty horse is not ugly to me but it can be ridden in an ugly manner which I don't think is necessary.

Agree, and agree with Pigeon's post too :)

If improvement is gained through battling through resistance (ugly) to me that isn't worth it - the way it was achieved will still be there in the end result, no matter how good it may look superficially. The horse's attitude to the process and to me will have been contaminated by it. The end does not justify the means.

But I also agree with Pigeon that improvement (for me anyway) achieved without the battles is a very slow process (fortunately, I enjoy it :) ).

And in terms of ears - "pinned ears" might be an alternative description for the undesirable expression? I wouldn't want to see pinned ears, tight mouth, wrinkles over eyes, irritated tail swishing...
 

Jesstickle

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I think people are taking ugly to mean different things!

I don 't battle with my horse ever but I would still describe plenty of bits of the learning process as ugly!
 

TheMule

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I dont think your riding ever needs to be ugly, I think you can remain a nice quiet, sympathetic rider throughout a training process.
 

Lolo

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I dont think your riding ever needs to be ugly, I think you can remain a nice quiet, sympathetic rider throughout a training process.

I think people are taking my mild hyperbole a bit to heart. Your riding shouldn't be ugly and I've never said riding should be in improving the horse's way of going. The way the horse reacts to it, or the way you have to deconstruct to reconstruct, can be IMO and that's what I was asking about.
 

windand rain

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Having been lucky enough to find a cracking rider for my ponies I have watched as one is retaught to carry itself (not pretty) and the other a 4 year old she has backed and although I know the temperament of the horses comes into it I do know now that riding properly from the body and core makes a huge difference. Luckily the baby had a great ride judge at the first big show who rode very sympathetically with her body I was a bit alarmed at the thought of a kick and pull rider getting on as the pony would have panicked and run through the front
 
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