Improving sole depth

[Stratosphere]

Horse had laminitis last year, regular xrays have shown an improvement in rotation however the sole depth is currently only 1cm, vet has recommended shoes to help improve this, however horse has always been barefoot and I’d prefer to keep shoes off, obviously if shoes are the best thing for it then I will go ahead and instruct the farrier, I’m just hesitant to put shoes on, I’m rather in the barefoot camp!
Horse is currently on soaked hay, unmollassed balancer, hoof supplement (from vet) and magnesium, turn out is a bare field - essentially minimum sugar diet really.
So I guess my question is, what can I do to improve the sole depth without shoes?

 

[be positive]

I don't see how having shoes on will improve the sole, other than to give a false impression that it is tougher, I think people would be interested in the ingredients in the hoof supplement from your vet as it may not be the best available, if the vet is not over keen on barefoot I would question his advice on feeding so maybe say which balancer the horse is on so the barefoot experts can possibly offer advice on whether diet can be improved.

1 cm sole depth actually sounds very good to me, 1mm would not but seems unlikely.

 

[Pippity]

Having shoes on made my horse more comfortable while we worked to improve the depth of her sole. She's back to being barefoot now. I hadn't realised how much she was hurting until she had shoes on, and suddenly was striding out gleefully.

 

[ester]

Is the horse worked?
judicious padding of boots can help
Do you have a consistent hay supply that is worth testing?

 

[Stratosphere]

Thanks for the replies guys,
Balancer I’m feeding is Horse and Pony direct low calorie balancer, think it was the only one I could find at the time that didn’t include molasses, he’s looking really well on it but open to suggestions if it’s not ideal?
Hoof supplement from vet doesn’t have an online spec sheet I’m afraid so will have to wait until I’m back at the yard for the details on that
Hay supplier is consistent so can get it analysed, however would the analysis still be relevant with having soaked the hay for 12+ hours before feeding?
Horse is in work to control his weight, however only recently backed so currently consists of long reining/lunging over poles 5 days a week, ridden 2 days a week, short hacks at the moment down a quiet road and some off road tracks
He seems comfortable on all surfaces, although if he steps on a large stone he does feel it. I did ask the vet about boots but they felt shoes would be a better way forward.
Just to add, definitely 1cm, not 1mm, ideally sole should be minimum 1.5cm?

 

[ester]

Realistically shoes just suspend the sole above the ground. It is good that he is comfortable on all surfaces, I deem it ok to feel a large stone, that's a good thing it means you get your hoof off it again quick . I was mostly asking about the work from a sole stimulation point of view if they weren't doing any. You may well find that depth increases as the work slowly increases.

That's an interesting one re. soaking hay and analysis, I am not actually sure from a minerals point of view.

Re. balancers the general advice s to feed one without iron in. I haven't actually heard of the HPD one but at the very least it doesn't fit that criteria.
Personally I feed equimins adv. complete as it fitted my forage analysis well, though I do add some magnesium on top though. From a pellet point of view forageplus also do one, powder wise those/equivita/pro_earth pro hoof.

 

[ycbm]

He seems comfortable on all surfaces, although if he steps on a large stone he does feel it. I did ask the vet about boots but they felt shoes would be a better way forward.
Just to add, definitely 1cm, not 1mm, ideally sole should be minimum 1.5cm?

The horse appears to be telling you that he is perfectly happy and hasn't read the manual that his soles should be 1.5cm.

That sounds wrong to me, where did the figure come from? I've seen lots and lots of holes dug through soles by vets and I don't think I've ever seen one with a sole anywhere near that thick.

I think somebody might have got confused between sole thickness and concavity, because 1.5cm is the ideal depth between the point of the pedal bone and the floor, and that measurement would include both sole and the air gap caused by a nicely concave foot.

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[Stratosphere]

I’ll definitely take a look at the forageplus balancer, I didn’t know about avoiding iron, what’s the reasoning behind that?
I’m hoping the work in varied surfaces begins to help, ycbm, you’ve got a point there actually, vet definitely referred to sole depth, but you’ve got me thinking, the concavity of the foot isn’t brilliant, not flat by any means, but certainly room for improvement, Almost certainly it’s the ‘air gap’ they were referring to, which would obviously be immediately improved by shoes, wish the vet had said concavity!

So to rephrase my initial question then, what is the best way of improving hoof concavity on a barefoot horse?

 

[ycbm]

Answer is diet primarily and movement/controlled exercise to assist with speed of it happening.

The iron (and manganese) is because it blocks the uptake of copper, which affects the digestion and hence foot quality. For that reason, no iron supplements are also all very high in copper.

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[ester]

and that uk grazing is usually high in iron.
In the US in high iron areas they end up filtering water before use.

My own always had relatively flat feet, we started with flat pedal bones, they did improve some but would always notice smaller stones than those with more concavity.

Just from a point of interest he flinted his sole very slightly out hunting one day. Wasn't actually off until a while later (same day, less adrenaline ) and it did abscess. Vets response was 1) his soles are so flexible under hoof testers I am amazed he is ok barefoot. 2) some time later while still digging, - they're bloody thick and flexible though.

 

[TPO]

The usual recommended balancers on here are:
Equimmins advance (powder or pellet form)
Progressive Earth (Pro Hoof or Pro Balance)
Forage Plus

If you were feeding these it's very unlikely that you would also need a seperate hoof supplement.

Adding salt to a feed can help too.

What do you feed just now?

It sounds like your horse is doing well. If he appeared foot or was landing toe first it might be worth considering boots and pads but that doesnt spins like the case. Comfortable movement builds a healthy hoof.

I really like the blogs/articles on www.hoofgeek.com

 

[PurBee]

Having shoes on made my horse more comfortable while we worked to improve the depth of her sole. She's back to being barefoot now. I hadn't realised how much she was hurting until she had shoes on, and suddenly was striding out gleefully.

yes...shoes dont protect the sole though yet do add wall height to the hoof lifting the sole higher off the ground, so gravel etc doesnt compress into the sole, impeding blood flow to the sole and sole growth.

So op, if you want to remain unshod, allow your horse to grow wall....5-10mm, the height of a shoe. Many trimming practices take wall down to sole plane and with a thin/soft soled horse they will walk off from such a trim footy.
Wherever walls shape is flaring, dont allow that to grow long and flare more, but aside from that, allow wall height to grow.

My mare‘s soles were a nightmare, i went round the houses, different techniques, supps, diet, management, trims...and the one factor that has kept her consistently striding confidently was leaving her walls with height by at least 5mm. Keeping toes backed-up yet having height to the wall. She went from having a splayed foot, always footy, to a more tight round shape and more comfort. Sole growth improved. She daily stomps down tracks that have gravel and random stones everywhere. Huge difference in her feet, cant believe it took so long to find the ‘simple‘ solution.

In the barefoot world the wild horse hoof is often shown as an example of a good solid wild hoof. If looked at closely those hoof walls have height, yet the walls at the bottom arent flat, theyre rounded, which bf folk coined ‘mustang roll’.

Somehow, for whatever reasons, probably partly farriery practices of trimming preparing a hoof for a shoe, and partly due to laminitis being so prevalent, basic barefoot trim technique has been ubiquitously teaching to take hoof wall to sole plane. Fine if youre going to fit a shoe...but not fine if not. Wall also needs to be relieved of pressure for laminitis And flare. These are Remedial instances of taking the wall to sole plane. But dumping any horse on its soles to take most of the load, is asking for sole issues and footiness.
Blood flows to all areas of the sole, and that blood flow is restricted if the coffin bone is pressed hard onto the sole with no flexing walls to take also the pressure of the stride. Excess pressure causes restriction of blood flow which ultimately restricts cell turnover of sole and growth.

So its worth trying to leave some wall height, if the hooves are in good enough growth direction condition to take it. Otherwise booting up is the other option, to relieve sole pressure and build sole.
(aside from dietary minerals as mentioned)

 

[ester]

Plenty of horses also self trim to hoof wall = sole plane where it meets the wall (concavity elsewhere) and are perfectly comfortable like that.
Mine has always been better as such.

I have never read that booting relieves sole pressure to build sole, I have always seen it suggested as padded, in order to give some sole pressure and stimulate sole = thickening.

ETA he also always had much longer walls left when shoeing than ever bare.

 

[ycbm]

Personally I would not normally leave wall height at the toe and have never seen a self trimming barefoot horse leave hoof wall height at the toe. A few millimeters is normal on the sides but so is self trimming to the outer sole level.



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[Stratosphere]

Some good points there guys, thanks for all your input! TPO- he gets balancer, hoof supplement, magnesium and salt (only started adding the salt last week)
I’ll change the balancer to cut out the iron and keep up the exercise, he does seem perfectly happy in his movement at the moment which is why I’m so reluctant to shoe, the farrier is out to the yard this week for another horse so I’ll have a chat with him while he’s there, vet did say the toe could be taken back a little further, but looking externally his feet look really good, so that’s something at least

 

[PurBee]

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/wild_horses.html

agree with comments above, - IF theres concavity then the horse can normally handle walls to sole plane. With a laminitis thin sole as OP has suggested with her horse, concavity is likely less than ideal.

Agreed ester - boots with pads = soft pressure to build sole.

Link above shows the type of wild hoof im referring to...right front pic shows the ‘lip’ of hoof wall protruding above the sole, with the wall very rounded by wear. The rear hoof has a very long, and well rounded hoof wall...not worn right down to the sole plane....despite the deep concavity shown of the soles.

granted - we have all sorts of pics to refer to yet the environment plays a huge part in how a wild hoof develops and self-trims! Native ‘wetland’ types have horrendous hooves with flaring and uneven chipped hoof walls. They would probably be sole-sore if suddenly plonked on the dry rocky plains the mustangs have adapted to so well.

 

[Gloi]

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/wild_horses.html

Link above shows the type of wild hoof im referring to...right front pic shows the ‘lip’ of hoof wall protruding above the sole, with the wall very rounded by wear. The rear hoof has a very long, and well rounded hoof wall...not worn right down to the sole plane....despite the deep concavity shown of the soles.
granted - we have all sorts of pics to refer to yet the environment plays a huge part in how a wild hoof develops and self-trims! Native ‘wetland’ types have horrendous hooves with flaring and uneven chipped hoof walls. They would probably be sole-sore if suddenly plonked on the dry rocky plains the mustangs have adapted to so well.

Environment does play a part in how a hoof develops and a horse will only develop that rim of hoof in wild dry lands. Most of our horses are going to be ridden on tarmac and the hoof ridge soon gets worn away and it is a mixture of the wall and the edges of the sole as well as the frog which are in wear on the tarmac. With a decent concavity only the edge of the sole will be in wear and the horse will cope fine but produce a very different hoof shape to the wild hoof even self trimming. If they can't manage there's always boots.

 

[PurBee]

In comparison, the foot below has so much sole and such a huge thick calloused frog it can wear its walls right down because it has so much protection underneath P3.
See the length of the hoof wall from coronet to toe - its very long. This hoof is so hard and fused by so much thickness of sole, frog and wall in these dry regions where it lives...it doesnt need hoof walls for protection:


from: https://paddockparadise.eu/en/ignoring-pathology/

Whereas our domestic horses in the british isles especially....exposed to wet/damp and in contrast very dry stables...and a whole plethora of ‘un-natural’ foods/environments -we struggle to build a ‘solid foot’, understandably.

There’s no point trying to mimic a dry, desert-like wild horse hoof if said horse doesnt experience that environment, which is the model the BF community follow, no matter the environement their horse lives in.

Wetland type wild horses grow hoof walls that chip unevenly...they look awful but function as a hoof.

my personal journey bf with my horses has taught me that some hoof wall helps hugely for their comfort, and as ycbm says, keeping the toe area short, has been the compromise ive found that keeps them comfortable with wet/dry mixed environments.

 

[ycbm]

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/wild_horses.html

agree with comments above, - IF theres concavity then the horse can normally handle walls to sole plane. With a laminitis thin sole as OP has suggested with her horse, concavity is likely less than ideal.

Agreed ester - boots with pads = soft pressure to build sole.

Link above shows the type of wild hoof im referring to...right front pic shows the ‘lip’ of hoof wall protruding above the sole, with the wall very rounded by wear. The rear hoof has a very long, and well rounded hoof wall...not worn right down to the sole plane....despite the deep concavity shown of the soles.

granted - we have all sorts of pics to refer to yet the environment plays a huge part in how a wild hoof develops and self-trims! Native ‘wetland’ types have horrendous hooves with flaring and uneven chipped hoof walls. They would probably be sole-sore if suddenly plonked on the dry rocky plains the mustangs have adapted to so well.

Sorry PB, I don't think the picture shows what you are saying. If you look at the view where the foot is cut through the middle, there are several millimeters of sole which are ground bearing and no raised hoof wall, and that profile is right round the foot. I can't see any height of hoof wall in that foot.

 

[ester]

I do remember someone who had a cob that had grown a perfect 'shoe' on here at one point, because everyone (ycbm sure you too) said how unusual that was for something that was self trimming.

I too do not marry up what you are describing with the mustang photos.

 

[PurBee]

Its extremely subtle ycbm due to it being mere mm difference in what lands first.
zoom in on the cut in half hoof - We can only see toe wall in that pic. Look at the toe....its the white line and inner hoof wall its resting on, not the sole. Outer hoof wall rounded due to wear. Agreed its only mm slight difference but makes all the difference with many 100kg bearing on it
Cast eye towards middle of frog on that cut in half pic - frog takes the pressure, coupled with sole, at the back of the foot,then the sole arches upwards to meet the toe, sole not resting on the ground where the front of p3 is located. The sole acting like a ‘flexing trampoline’ with each stride due to concavity and p3 bearing down on it, and sole not resting on the ground at rest, with the inner wall/white line ridge being the first thing that makes contact.

Zoom in on the right front pic. Someone has drawn a faint black line halfway across the hoof. There’s a drawn dot where the sole ends and the wall begins. Look at the far wall protruding there, a line of white and behind it a line of black outer wall Protruding.

Its very rounded due to the conditions this horse was in, wearing the wall to a very rounded shape, and its possible just a 2mm ridge of inner/outer wall there but if inspected very closely we see the wall acting a concussive support, alongside all the other structures.

I agree, upon initial observation it looks like these desert wild horses hooves had hoof walls completely passive to the mechanics of the foot function. The bf community (no matter their particular environment) see this phenomena and try to mimic it, resulting many times, not all, in foot sore horses.

Ramey and others do address this ‘trim for the individual horse’ stance only after years of learning why we couldnt trim to this desert bf horse model.
The wetlands Camargue horses are known to have wider feet, yet tough, than their drier desert counterparts, but unfortunately i cant find a pic of their feet for comparison to show.

My own experience with my horses who have had exposure to wet pastures coupled with dry stony tracks and free access to dry stabling always fared worse when walls taken down to sole plane, the ’less concave’ mare more so footy obviously than the highly concave gelding, yet both fared extremely well when some mm was left for height.
I didn’t understand this fully so i reverted to various wild horse pics and deeply studied them to find a minute wall lip supporting the initial movements of the stride and foot. It amazed me that a mere lip meant the difference between long confident strides or short strided footiness.

 

[ycbm]

I don't agree Purbee, sorry. I see several millimetres of sole inside the white line that are ground bearing on flat ground and several more millimetres that will be ground bearing on uneven ground.

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