In hand hacking? Roads? & Stupid Rule!!!!

[veryconfused]

As I have explained before I have recently found out I am pregnant. And I have made the decision not to ride at all. I am advertising for a sharer on my horse. But he needs to be exercised regularly - which I have been doing obstacle courses with him, round pen work and lunging. But I would really like to take him on some hacks in hand.

He looses his confidence out and about if he has a long break away from going out.

He has fab ground manners and if great on the roads. But how safe is it handwalking on the roads?

Also my yard has a rule that your horse isnt allowed out of the yard without a bridle on!! But he responds a lot better to a headcollar than a bit when you are on the ground! And also if he is naughty I'd rather pull on a headcollar then on a bit!

So if I do this I think I'll put his bridle on underneath his headcollar? So I can just clip the rope onto the headcollar when out of site?? But I would like to stop for some grass with him.

What is my position if I refuse to agree to this rule?????

Stupid rule???

 

[spaniel]

Not a stupid rule....its the law. You are not deemed in control of your horse if he is only in a headcollar. You need bridle and bit. Nothing to stop you putting a headcollar over the top but tbh I think you are foolish if this is what you intend to rely on the keep your horse under control.

 

[ThePony]

If that is the rule then you are stuck with it, and no harm in having the bridle as back up anyway. I would just stick a headcollar over or under the bridle and hold the leadrope in the same hand as the reins, but a little shorter than the reins so the headcollar comes into play before the bit, but you can instantly use the reins too just incase without getting in a tangle!!

If you would like to take him for a pick of grass then I would just stick to doing that on the yard so you can be sure of both your safety and be abiding by the rules. Your yard is only trying to keep everyone safe so I wouldn't go avoiding the rules.

 

[veryconfused]

But when I hack normally I ride in a natural hackamore, he does have a snaffle bridle at the yard, but hardly ever use it!

But if I'm riding she will let me ride in that, but not to hand walk?

Thats why I can't understand it!!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

'Fraid I agree with the YO. You need to use a bridle if leading on the roads. Like already suggested, you could use a headcollar as well and have the bridle for backup in the unlikley event of a problem.

 

[veryconfused]

Just called my horse insurance company.

They have said that both my horse and anyone else that may be involved in an accident (i.e. everything from horse kicking a car, hurting a person or horse hurting himself) would be covered under insurance whether I lead in a headcollar or in a bridle. They said to them it makes no difference.

So if they're willing to cover me on the roads in a headcollar, I think I will do what my horse prefers

 

[Alibear]

Not sure it is the law looked into ridden hacking legalities with my Riding Club.
Perfectly leagal to hack out in any type of bitless bridle which includes bosals etc so bit is not required. You can also take your riding and road saftey test in them.
I have a horse who is a million miles more polite in-hand in his controller head coller than he is with any bridle.
And yes I've tried bigger bits and rollers with side reins etc and just end up with a snorting monster. Control headcoller and long lead line and I have a little lamb to walk out.
Admit to not having tried a chifney as his teeth issues mean thats a no go.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

It does sound an odd thing for a yard to be involved in.

I could understand if they had employees leading clients horses for some reason (eg leading them to remote field or something), but really dont see that there is any reason for it to be their business what you do when off the yard as long as i) it isnt so mad and loopy the yards reputation is at risk ii) it somehow impacted their insurance

I mean, following this line would mean yard owner could tell you you werent allowed out on the road unless your horse was shod (as his feet might get sore) or go faster than a walk (as thats riskier).

Normally I tend to understand YO rules from their POV but this one...noooo. Would recommend the compromise tho of a Dually headcollar to give you a bit more control tho in an emergency.

Of course YOs always have the ultimate sanction, follow my rules or leave, but in this one rare case I think they would find it hard to justify. Out of interest is this a written rule as part of the livery contract you signed? If so they might try to hold you to it, if not then I would just carry on leading and not discuss it further.

 

[waggerz]

you are legally required to lead a horse in a bridle and wear a hat on any public road.

though many do not follow this law. If your stable requires you to lead your horse with specifically a bridle on, then just put his bitless on. its still a bridle and therefore you ar enot breaking any rules. But if they state that they require you to lead with a bit in the mouth put the headcollar on under and have both reins and lead rope.

 

[Fii]

Not a stupid rule....its the law. You are not deemed in control of your horse if he is only in a headcollar. You need bridle and bit. Nothing to stop you putting a headcollar over the top but tbh I think you are foolish if this is what you intend to rely on the keep your horse under control.

It's the law? Really?
What about leading foals/youngstock out, that have'nt been bitted yet. Youngstock that have to be led from a field along a road to be brought in, or change fields?
I have on numerous ocasions led such in headcollars on roads.
It seems to me that if your insurence company has you covered, then your yard owner has no right to tell you what to do outside their premasise (sp)
As long as you are fully in control (as much as anyone can be with horses) then i don't see a problem with it.
Plenty of people ride in bitless bridles, and some are no more than headcollars anyway.

NB, I think the highway code states, that you must be in control (on a road) at all times, i don't know where it states, you must have a bitted bridle, but will wait to be further enlightened.

 

[veryconfused]

It does sound an odd thing for a yard to be involved in.

I could understand if they had employees leading clients horses for some reason (eg leading them to remote field or something), but really dont see that there is any reason for it to be their business what you do when off the yard as long as i) it isnt so mad and loopy the yards reputation is at risk ii) it somehow impacted their insurance

I mean, following this line would mean yard owner could tell you you werent allowed out on the road unless your horse was shod (as his feet might get sore) or go faster than a walk (as thats riskier).

Normally I tend to understand YO rules from their POV but this one...noooo. Would recommend the compromise tho of a Dually headcollar to give you a bit more control tho in an emergency.

Of course YOs always have the ultimate sanction, follow my rules or leave, but in this one rare case I think they would find it hard to justify. Out of interest is this a written rule as part of the livery contract you signed? If so they might try to hold you to it, if not then I would just carry on leading and not discuss it further.

Not written in contract, its just a big sign on the gate you go through to get out of the yard!

I will tell her I am leading in his natural hackamore, and she is more than welcome to call my insurance company to check that this is OK..

Not that it has anything to do with her imo..

For the record, she also strongly disagrees with my horse being barefoot - she is demanding he stays in his stable from now (for 16 hours a day) as the grass is looking bare (which it most definately isn't)... and is charging me to bring in/turn out as I work!

Time to move?! I think so!!!!

Can't deal with all this and a baby lol

 

[ThePony]

if you are on a yard then you do need to abide by their rules. Just part and parcel of being on a livery yard!!

If you find that the rules prevent you from looking after your horse as you choose then prob better to try and find a yard that suits you both better otherwise it is likely to just cause a load of strife instead.

(we are on a v comp horse type yard and despite my mare competing every other week at dressage and oh affiliated sj at 1.05/1.10m they don't 'look' like comp horses - they also live out, aren't on sugary comp mix and are unshod. It did cause some funnyness at first as we are obviously wrong, but given time people have chilled with our different approach now!!)

 

[rhino]

It's the law? Really?
NB, I think the highway code states, that you must be in control (on a road) at all times, i don't know where it states, you must have a bitted bridle, but will wait to be further enlightened.

I think you may be waiting some time for that

 

[Tinypony]

It isn't the law that you must always have a bridle on to lead on the road, it's just how some people choose to interpret the Highway Code.
I don't see that this has f-all to do with your yard, presumably you are an adult, you own your horse and you have appropriate insurance cover. I could agree that a yard might be entitled to set some rules for how you conduct yourself on their premises, but once you're out the gate? I don't think so.
I wouldn't put a horse in a pressure halter like a Doolaly just to keep other people happy either. But you could always put your leadrope on the bottom ring so that it acted as a normal headcollar I'd guess.
I agree, I'd probably be inclined to look for another yard. If only because I would carry on my own sweet way and therefore probably get some strife from the yard.
You can get insurance to ride bitless here by the way, before anyone comes up with the "you're not covered by your insurance..." old chesnut. http://www.thegoodhorsemanshipsociety.com/
Having said that, I have had confirmation that I was covered bitless from NFU and S Essex in the past as well.

 

[SplashofSoy]

Our yard has the same rule, leading on public road the horse must be in bridle and you must wear hat and hi viz. My YO is a HS riding and road safety trainer/examiner so is very strict on this also like hi viz if riding out is compulsory not exceptions. You could put your bridle on over the head collar and have both lead rope and reins in hand. In terms of in hand grazing my horse manages very well to eat grass with his bit in!

What would you use if you were going to long rein your horse or would you also just use a headcollar?

 

[veryconfused]

Stoneways have said I'm covered.. headcollar/bridle = makes no odds to them!

Long reining/lunging = cavesson

Round Pen = Nothing

Hacking/Schooling = Natural Hackamore

Anything more I will use a snaffle if I need to... but thats it!!

 

[maggiesmum]

tbh I think you are foolish if this is what you intend to rely on the keep your horse under control.

Why exactly??? If the horse has been taught good ground manners, respect for personal space and isn't terrified of traffic etc then exactly why will she need a bit and bridle to stay in control??

There are far too many bad mannered horses out there because people rely on brute force rather than spending time teaching correct manners, my 9yo son handles my horses with no problems because they've been taught good manners - they didn't necessarily have good manners when they arrived but I put the effort in on the groundwork and they now lead, back up and move over off the gentlest of asks regardless of who's on the end of the leadrope!

If a horse is bargy and has no manners then a bridle and bit won't suddenly fix the problem, a bridle won't stop a horse dancing around at a junction or swinging its quarters into the road so to rely on a bridle is foolish IMO!

OP - not suggesting for a second that your horse is rude or bargy but its a bugbear of mine and it infuriates me that people use force rather than making an effort to teach a horse properly!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

This sounds a perfectly good and sensible rule IMO and if you can't put up with it then I think its time to move on heh?

I don't think it is a "stupid rule" to insist on horse's having a bridle on if leading out in hand on the road. There's a difference IMO between just turning out in the field in a headcollar, and leading-out on the road instead of hacking.

When my horse was at someone else's yard on working livery; they had a rule that anyone riding or leading horses had to be attired in proper gear, i.e. hard hat, gloves & proper boots. When my boy was there, I abided by the rules. Now he's back at my place, I can do as I please.

But I think if you're finding the YO's dictates irksome, as you're obviously doing, then it may be time for you to move on.

 

[Hippona]

Why exactly??? If the horse has been taught good ground manners, respect for personal space and isn't terrified of traffic etc then exactly why will she need a bit and bridle to stay in control??

Nothing to do with manners....anything unexpected could happen out on the roads and your horse would only need to panic and pull the lead-rope out of your hands and be off causing an accident......

I'm sure if your horse did cause an accident whilst being lead out in only a headcollar it would be up to you to prove that you were in control.....which may be easier said than done.....

 

[lhotse]

and wear a hat on any public road.

.

"you are legally required to lead a horse in a bridle and wear a hat on any public road. "

Are you sure about that? It's only a legal requirement for a child under the age of 14 to wear a hat whilst riding on a road, so I can't see how an adult without a hat, leading a horse, is breaking the law?

As for a bridle, the law states that a horse should be properly under control. I believe that a court of law would deem a headcollar to be outside of that law, however, a bridle comes in many forms, bitless included. So, if the horse is normally ridden in a hackamore, which is a recognised form of bridle, then that would be deemed an effort to be under control.

 

[Tinypony]

I think that it could be argued quite effectively that I have proper control of my horses in their halters, and my trainers would back me up. Most importantly, so will insurance companies.
Horses get away from riders and leaders when they are wearing bridles, halters and headcollars. That can't be completely avoided when they are so much bigger than us and have a strong flight instinct. Similarly, people fall off horses and get run away with when they are out riding. There's nothing you can put in a horse's gob that will stop it bolting away in a true panic situation, just as there is nothing you can do to be 100% certain that your horse won't "get away" from you when you are riding (ie, you fall off).
I sometimes think that some people rely too heavily on the use of bits and the strength in their arms almost as a comfort blanket. Whereas when you aren't assuming you have control via a bit of metal in the mouth, you might put a lot more time into ensuring that your horse really listens to you on the ground and ridden, and things like yielding to pressure etc. But who cares really? I think you should all be free to deal with your horse as you wish, because you are adults and can make up your own minds, as can I. We stack the odds in our favour depending on our beliefs, training and experience.

Which leads me on to... For me the question is, can a YO expect to dictate what an adult does with their horse away from their premises? My answer to that is no, they can't.

 

[maggiesmum]

Very well put tinypony

 

[tazzle]

I think that it could be argued quite effectively that I have proper control of my horses in their halters, and my trainers would back me up. Most importantly, so will insurance companies.
Horses get away from riders and leaders when they are wearing bridles, halters and headcollars. That can't be completely avoided when they are so much bigger than us and have a strong flight instinct. Similarly, people fall off horses and get run away with when they are out riding. There's nothing you can put in a horse's gob that will stop it bolting away in a true panic situation, just as there is nothing you can do to be 100% certain that your horse won't "get away" from you when you are riding (ie, you fall off).
I sometimes think that some people rely too heavily on the use of bits and the strength in their arms almost as a comfort blanket. Whereas when you aren't assuming you have control via a bit of metal in the mouth, you might put a lot more time into ensuring that your horse really listens to you on the ground and ridden, and things like yielding to pressure etc. But who cares really? I think you should all be free to deal with your horse as you wish, because you are adults and can make up your own minds, as can I. We stack the odds in our favour depending on our beliefs, training and experience.

Which leads me on to... For me the question is, can a YO expect to dictate what an adult does with their horse away from their premises? My answer to that is no, they can't.

you just saved me a load ot typing tinypony .
I totally agree with that !

My horse is ridden and driven on th eroads bitless .....insurance company(s) accept that bits are not and abolute necessity to be as in "control" as one ever can be of a large flight animal. It's training and habituation that is much more relevant not the headgear.

Having said that I agree that YO's that give out safe advice (like the wearing of hi viz) are looking out for the safety of liveries many of whom might be inexprienced or not aware of their actions ...... but as long as horse owners are complying withinsurance / law requirements their actions are their own responsibility.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Which leads me on to... For me the question is, can a YO expect to dictate what an adult does with their horse away from their premises? My answer to that is no, they can't.

In rural communities, riders are often known to come from a particular yard and if the YO feels liveries behaviour reflects badly on their yard, then they can ask them to leave. Rightly or wrongly, if they don't like you riding in a leopard skin numnah and bandages, they could ask you to sling your hook.
Many yards I've been on, insist on riders wearing hats at all times, or hi viz when hacking out. I have also seen a YO insist on a bridle being put on a horse being led in hand on the roads. If they recieve a complaint from a neighbour about liveries riding on their land without permission or riding without consideration on the roads, they may feel poor practice reflects on their business and reputation.
Being a good livery sometimes means compromise, and if you can't, then you're best off finding a yard that thinks the same as you do.

 

[Fun Foals]

Well if it is the law, which i cant see that it is, i break it every day to turn my horse out. His field is just down the road from the stable and i have no worries with it. Plus like it has been said before what about foals and young stock. We break the law all the time then, even with the stallions whose fields are just along the road from the yard. From stallions to mares, foals and young stock they pretty much all get led on a slip rope off the bridle (apart from afew exceptions that you know are quite highly strung and respect the bit more). I cant see its got anything to do with them once you are off the yard.
I think i would look for a new yard, each horse is different and the same rule doesnt work for every horse, people need to be flexable.

 

[rhino]

Go ahed and do that, but don't be suprised to be arrested, you WILL be breaking the law.

Please could you point out where to find this 'law'; I am very interested as it is news to me!

 

[Tinypony]

Go ahed and do that, but don't be suprised to be arrested, you WILL be breaking the law.

Prove it. Put your money... etc.

 

[Tinypony]

In rural communities, riders are often known to come from a particular yard and if the YO feels liveries behaviour reflects badly on their yard, then they can ask them to leave. Rightly or wrongly, if they don't like you riding in a leopard skin numnah and bandages, they could ask you to sling your hook.
Many yards I've been on, insist on riders wearing hats at all times, or hi viz when hacking out. I have also seen a YO insist on a bridle being put on a horse being led in hand on the roads. If they recieve a complaint from a neighbour about liveries riding on their land without permission or riding without consideration on the roads, they may feel poor practice reflects on their business and reputation.
Being a good livery sometimes means compromise, and if you can't, then you're best off finding a yard that thinks the same as you do.

Fortunately, there are a lot of yards that feel the same as I do. I've never been at a yard where the YO would think they had the right to dictate on matters of tack when the owner is off the premises.

 

[tazzle]

Go ahed and do that, but don't be suprised to be arrested, you WILL be breaking the law.

what law

insurance companies would not insure anyone to do something that breaks the law.

It is not the law that a horse has to have a bit in on the roads.

Horse riders
49
Safety equipment. Children under the age of 14 MUST wear a helmet which complies with the Regulations. It MUST be fastened securely. Other riders should also follow these requirements. These requirements do not apply to a child who is a follower of the Sikh religion while wearing a turban.


[Laws H(PHYR) Act 1990, sect 1 & H(PHYR) Regulations 1992, reg 3]

50
Other clothing. You should wear

•boots or shoes with hard soles and heels
•light-coloured or fluorescent clothing in daylight
•reflective clothing if you have to ride at night or in poor visibility

and

Riding
52
Before you take a horse on to a road, you should

•ensure all tack fits well and is in good condition
•make sure you can control the horse
Always ride with other, less nervous horses if you think that your horse will be nervous of traffic. Never ride a horse without both a saddle and bridle

the only thing that one MUST do is that a child wear a correctly fitting and fastened helmet, the rest is should

if we take it that all reccomendations ( shoulds ) are adhered to and not doing so breaks the law then anyone going out without hi viz could be arrested too. ( maybe thats a good thing )


as could anyone leaving the yard with a horse already napping or doing anything other than walking quietly along ( maybe thats a good thing too )



technically I cant see anything about a LED horse, just ridden (or ref to herded animals) ...... sooooooooooooooooo

will presume the advice will be included in Never ride a horse without both a saddle and bridle but just not needed the saddle.

bridles are not all bitted ............ well in fact none of them are when we buy them, they are all sold wwithout bits... but thats me being pedantic

 

[moana]

Sorry, I have skipped most replies, so apologies for repeating anyone else. There is NO LAW that says you must use a bridle whilst on the road. You must have control, but no law says this must be via a bridle.
Please get your facts straight before posting.
SOME Insurance companies may insist on a bridle however, so check your policy.