incident with vet

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jackbean

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I was just wondering if anyone else out there has been in a similar situation to mine, last October I was getting my horse vetted to sell. I wanted him to be sold with a clean vet cert. The vet was lunging him on the hard ground in a tight circle. He flicked the whip, he went in to canter, he pulled the line and pulled him off his feet. The vet said 'he would be back in 10 days when the swelling on the top of the leg had gone down to finish the vetting'. The next day my daughter and I were in his stable and the vet turned up unscheduled. My horse was standing strange, I asked if it was his pelvis he said no he is just really bruised. He then turned up a few days later and asked another livery owner to walk him out so he could see him. He rang me and said walk him by hand for a week and then get your daughter to start riding him. So we done as we were told, 2 weeks later my horse was miserable and not eating. I got another vet out for a 2nd opinion and he told us he had a fractured pelvis and a fractured hip.
 
Does the second vet know about the first vets diagnosis and do they have proof to back up their suspicions. Whilst I'd definitely be pursuing some kind of complaint against vet 1 (for the random turning up at the yard, lack of diagnosis and unwillingness to investigate the injury as much as the original incident) I think to make anything stick you'd need proof of the fractures (I'm guessing bone scan as I'd guess that with the density of muscle in that area not really easy to x-ray) otherwise it's going to be a case of vet 2s word against vet 1. From what you say of your horses change in behaviour it does sound likely there's something causing your horse to be in pain that was missed / ignored by vet1 but if you're wanting to take this in the direction I'm guessing you might then you need to be sure you've got a definite diagnosis that can't be argued with. (I have a pony that my vet queried having a pelvic fracture just on how he looked and on further investigation a completely different problem was turned up but he wasn't really all that sore and was bright in himself so it was always an outside possibility rather than being definitely convinced anyway)
 
When I got the 2nd vet he knew the other vet practice and said he would not go over the 1st vet he rang them to tell them his diagnosis . The 1st vet was to phone me that evening I waited and waited no phone call whilst my horse stood in pain the next day at lunch time I rang the 2nd vet and said that had not been in contact so he rang them again and they just said we are happy for you to treat the horse
 
What treatment is recommended, I hope it all works out OK.

With respect to first vet, take it steadily. What outcome do you want.
Is is likely that you will get a suitable outcome. I would be looking at 12 months for full recovery, and the need for expensive vet care to ensure horse is 100%, in order that he will then be in a saleable condition and returned to same level of fitness and schooling. This obviously is something you need to discuss in detail with new vet.

Vets are insured for this sort of thing, you are the injured party and not them. Of course pulling horse of its feet was not intentional, but that makes little difference to the horse.

I would ask BHS legal line for their help. If you are not a gold member, join now. Take down a note of the questions they ask you, they are all relevant.

I had a solicitor [non equine] send a letter to a "professional" [long story] the case was briefly set out in plain English and asked for their insurance details. Make sure the letter goes to the head of the practice.

You do not [in my opinion] need to send a solicitors letter at this stage, but you MUST correspond using a formal and recordable method. You are an owner and not a professional, a fact which any court will take in to consideration.

Write a letter stating what has happened, what VET did and what you did subsequently. So far their response is predictable but unsatisfactory.

Now, remember that the Vet is a Professional and will probably not be able to accept liability [insurance companies do not encourage this].

Remain calm, do not send any letter without re - reading it a day after composing it.
Do not get in to nitty gritty detail if you can avoid it, just think how you would explain anything to a court who knows nothing about horses.
You don't know what is going to be the outcome from a financial point of view, but ALL expenses from the day the horse was lunged MUST be kept in a diary. You could expect the vet business to pay all these expenses, but all you need do is tell them that you had anticipated a sale, and now you have significant and ongoing expenditure, resulting from the incident. The horse is not in a saleable condition. This is not a threat it is a statement of fact.
I think you should be wary of a follow up phone call now, it may only be in the best interest of the vet, and not you.
Keep calm, and just ask that they respond in writing to your letter, and make it clear you are not prepared to negotiate over the phone on a such a serious matter. It is not appropriate for them to negotiate on the phone when you have sent a letter.
 
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Just be warned that if you do take it further through the vets insurance and get a payout, you can't have the money and the horse - the insurance will take it to recoup part of their losses. They offered to settle with my friend and as the offer was less than the value of the horse she took it further. It turned out if she had taken the court case to completion then she would have had a payout but they would have auctioned the horse.

If they offer you treatment fees, take them. If they offer you LOU please read the small print as they may take the horse and send it to the sales :(

I know this might sound like a crazy situation (and it is) but this is what happened to someone I personally know.
 
Fides said:
Just be warned that if you do take it further through the vets insurance and get a payout, you can't have the money and the horse - the insurance will take it to recoup part of their losses. They offered to settle with my friend and as the offer was less than the value of the horse she took it further. It turned out if she had taken the court case to completion then she would have had a payout but they would have auctioned the horse.

If they offer you treatment fees, take them. If they offer you LOU please read the small print as they may take the horse and send it to the sales :(

I know this might sound like a crazy situation (and it is) but this is what happened to someone I personally know.
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If the worse comes to the worse the owner could have bought the horse back at auction surely?
I can understand such a situation occurring if the owner wants LOU, but how many companies want to take ownership of a horse? It won't get many bids with LOU stamped on it.
 
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Fides said:
Just be warned that if you do take it further through the vets insurance and get a payout, you can't have the money and the horse - the insurance will take it to recoup part of their losses. They offered to settle with my friend and as the offer was less than the value of the horse she took it further. It turned out if she had taken the court case to completion then she would have had a payout but they would have auctioned the horse.

If they offer you treatment fees, take them. If they offer you LOU please read the small print as they may take the horse and send it to the sales :(

I know this might sound like a crazy situation (and it is) but this is what happened to someone I personally know.
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Sorry to hear the OP's problems. Mrs123 has written a really excellent and comprehensive reply from which I have to conclude that she is a lawyer!

Is that really so, Fides? When my Landrover was involved in an accident with a lorry, the insurers offered the full insured amount in compensation (£3,500). But it was worth more to me breaking it and selling the parts. (I was offered £1,250 for the engine alone). I was advised that it was still my vehicle up until the time I accepted their offer. So I suggested they pay out but sell me the salvage as part of the deal. I paid £650 for the salvage, they paid £3,500 compensation, I repaired it for £500, it sailed through the MOT and I sold it for £4,300!

You are not obliged to accept what an insurance company offers! In the OP's situation, I'd agree a cash pay out of compensation for my expenses and losses (carefully recorded as advised) but make a nominal offer for the horse, say meat value, which is still yours until you agree to part with it. They can't just take the horse without the owner's agreement, that's called theft! Insurance companies are immensely wealthy. What they do not have is time to waste on needless negotiations.
 
That's awful .
I don't think horses survive fracturing the head of the femur .
Was he hospitalised for the X-ray ?
Is he weight bearing ?
 
Fides said:
Just be warned that if you do take it further through the vets insurance and get a payout, you can't have the money and the horse - the insurance will take it to recoup part of their losses. They offered to settle with my friend and as the offer was less than the value of the horse she took it further. It turned out if she had taken the court case to completion then she would have had a payout but they would have auctioned the horse.

If they offer you treatment fees, take them. If they offer you LOU please read the small print as they may take the horse and send it to the sales :(

I know this might sound like a crazy situation (and it is) but this is what happened to someone I personally know.
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On what basis? I have never heard of damages being awarded I this way; what they might have said was that the settlement would deduct the amount that the horse would have fetched at auction perhaps?

jackbean said:
When I got the 2nd vet he knew the other vet practice and said he would not go over the 1st vet he rang them to tell them his diagnosis . The 1st vet was to phone me that evening I waited and waited no phone call whilst my horse stood in pain the next day at lunch time I rang the 2nd vet and said that had not been in contact so he rang them again and they just said we are happy for you to treat the horse
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Again this is bizarre behaviour fro vet 2. There is no duty of care to vet 1; if you call out vet 2 to treat the horse they can call vet 1 as a matter of professional courtesy but they should be treating your horse otherwise I wouldn't be paying.

My concern would be proving that any damage to the horse was caused by vet 1. Horse cod have been kicked in the field, his cod you prove otherwise? The fact that the getting was stopped because if lameness suggests the it was a pee-existing condition unless you am prove the horse was sound at the vetting?
 
A broken pelvis combined with a broken head to the femur will be a very unstable fracture .
What is being done for the horse ?
 
I am not a lawyer, but have had several problems [over many years] and I am aware that lawyers do not always do what is the best thing for a client [and are happy to send out letters and build up an account].
In my opinion and experience, as long as OP takes things cautiously and makes it clear that she is a reasonable person [and absolutely not a walkover], a lot can be done herself, but she has to know her rights which is why I recommended BHS legal line as essential.
I do not rule out finding a solicitor to advise at a later stage.
 
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jrp204 said:
Seems the first vet had a suspicion there was something seriously wrong as he turned up unscheduled, twice.
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Yes it does, but this is best noted in a diary of events and expenses, rather than "used" as evidence of culpability.
Difficult to believe that no pain killer/anti anti inflammatory was advised
 
Afraid I suspect a wind up !!!. No horse with those injuries could stand for any length of time let alone walk. The absence of OP says a lot!
 
I'd also be very surprised if an average human could pull a horse over. Now the horse pulling the vet off his feet I could believe, and that is actually how I read it at first.
 
fatpiggy said:
I'd also be very surprised if an average human could pull a horse over. Now the horse pulling the vet off his feet I could believe, and that is actually how I read it at first.
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Easily done on the lunge in a tight circle. They lurch forward, the rope catch them short, takes them by surprise and crash.
 
Before vet1 came my horse was sound we were out jumping and competing he had passed the flection tests before the incident ,as vet1 was the biggest practices in the area i understand why vet2 informed them to give them the option to put right what vet 1 had done ,the main man over vet1 was happy with vets 2 diagnosis
 
my horse has had 5 months in a stable and is now aloud light work i have missed a sale and my daughter has missed this year getting out to compete we are not rich and only have one horse i wonder if vet1 would have come to put my horse right and do all they could for him if i had been a rich client
 
so vet 2 did leave a horse with a potentially unstable fracture without pain relief?

I suggest you get the advice of a good equine solicitor, people on here can usually give recommendations.
 
popsdosh said:
Afraid I suspect a wind up !!!. No horse with those injuries could stand for any length of time let alone walk. The absence of OP says a lot!
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this is far from a wind up i came on to this site for some help and yes our situation sounds bizarre i came on here out of desperation we have been through months of hell
 
vet2 thought that vet1 practice would be in contact asap but not the case so not only have we been through hell the insurance company want me to pay for an expert opinion after all our losses
 
the vets insurance wants a 3rd i would have thought considering i handed a perfectly healthy horse over to a vet i would not need to do this you dont send your child in to the doctor for a check up and it come out with a broken arm
 
jackbean said:
the vets insurance wants a 3rd i would have thought considering i handed a perfectly healthy horse over to a vet i would not need to do this you dont send your child in to the doctor for a check up and it come out with a broken arm
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You did not mention that things had moved on.
I don't see that you can refuse a second opinion IF there is some disagreement.
What is the disagreement?
Once again, you have to determine what you want, you and Vet1 had a contract/legal responsibility, it is their responsibility to insure, presumably your request is that the vet1 pays compensation.

Who they have as their insurance and the demands of that insurance company is irrelevant to some extent, you do not want to be unreasonable, but you need to know why they need to inspect the horse, ask for the report [I assume you are not entitled to it, but ask for it before an examination].
Getting too involved is not a good idea imho, if they want to inspect the horse you can ask for a full vet exam to include x-rays/MRI or whatever, they may not agree, but you can ask.
Personally, if it comes to that, I would want a large vet practice of international renown rather than some tame vet regularly employed by this insurance company. Only this way can you be assured of independence.
 
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