Inside and outside flex - schooling question

[sandi_84]

I was replaying my schooling sessions with Loki the other day in my head and a recent thread has got me thinking about my meltdown lesson.

My RI was attempting to teach me and my horse inside and outside flex(ion?) where you are going in a straight line but you ask your horse to turn just it's head for a slight inside bend or outside bend. We just couldn't manage it at all in walk and then she pushed us to try at trot and then canter (I refused to even try at canter) resulting in my meltdown and telling her I just couldn't do it and I was cr*p at riding Everytime I asked for inside bend we wiggled in towards the middle of the school and when I asked for outside bend I just felt like we were going to plough into the arena fence

She got on to show me how it was done and although she had better results than me she told me my horse was unflexable.

Could someone please re-explain the theory behind how to get your horse to do this for me, I'm thinking if I get it explained in a different way I may be able to understand better

He now can do actual circles of the 20m and 10m kind and our serpentines less resemble open squares joined together so our general bendyness has improved somewhat since then but since that fatefull day we (I) have not had the courage of our convictions to attempt this again

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

to start ask for a proper circle with inside bend, then ask for straightness for a stride, then ask for an inside bend- sometimes you need to build up to these things! slowly ask for more than straightness until you can hold an outside bend- there is no magic dust that makes this things easy! Instead of riding a serpentine ride a large zig zag (track to centre line), and then turn it into a wiggle (track to the inside track), then turn it into straightline flexions!

you need to hold your 'outside' bend though with your leg and a little bit with your hand sometimes with your body and only ask for the neck to move to start with. Only ask for this for a stride at a time and slowly build it up over a couple of weeks.

I like the movement down the centre line where you ask for left shoulder in, straight, right shoulder in straight but you have to build up to it!

Good luck!

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

Just thought- There was a Your Horse DVD (I am sure you can find this film on You Tube) Where Tim Stockdale went through this in great detail. He was showing how to jump a course with 'a' turns and 'b' turns and was showing how he asked for bend and to what extremes! Very good video to watch- I think it must have been about 2009? I am sure someone knows- The DVD was free with Your Horse Magazine filmed at the your horse show/ convention and it also had WFP jumping skinnies and Carl Hester on a very young Escapado...

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GrNV5H6hhI

That is part 1 of 4- you will need to find the other parts of it! x

 

[sandi_84]

to start ask for a proper circle with inside bend, then ask for straightness for a stride, then ask for an inside bend- sometimes you need to build up to these things! slowly ask for more than straightness until you can hold an outside bend- there is no magic dust that makes this things easy! Instead of riding a serpentine ride a large zig zag (track to centre line), and then turn it into a wiggle (track to the inside track), then turn it into straightline flexions!

you need to hold your 'outside' bend though with your leg and a little bit with your hand sometimes with your body and only ask for the neck to move to start with. Only ask for this for a stride at a time and slowly build it up over a couple of weeks.

I like the movement down the centre line where you ask for left shoulder in, straight, right shoulder in straight but you have to build up to it!

Good luck!

So (first paragraph in your reply) do a normal circle but ask for one stride of straightness, ask for inside flex but don't circle do you mean? Sorry

Third paragraph in your reply - when holding your outside bend do you mean using your outside leg and hand? Or inside leg to hold the quarters in and outside hand to ask for the flex? How do you mean with your body? Sorry again if that sounds totally stupid, I'll put my dunce cap on now

I think our problem was that I didn't really understand the theory behind asking for the movement and we were being asked to do too much too soon, she was wanting us to flex and maintain for quite a few strides and we never built it up slowly.

 

[Twinkley Lights]

I'm like you op it needs to sink in before I can click. Also if your horse is so stiff isn't this rather hard for her, may be far easier things to improve flexibility first.

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

Basic Steps- When you ask for normal inside bend you have more weight in your inside leg, it is slightly further forwards than the outside leg, and your inside hand should have the feel of the mouth on it, balanced by your outside hand- it is your body that asks for the bend- your hips and shoulders and chin should be facing the circle track.

1- do a 20m circle with inside bend, over X ask for one straight stride then continue with the circle- you will need a stronger outside hand and leg ask for this- it happens by straightening your body up to look straight ahead- you want to be able to squeeze your outside hand and leg to ask for the straight stride, then release it and ask him to continue on his circle. To start with you may need a bit of a pull though, to make it obvious what you're asking for.

To start with the quarters should not be a problem- if they start to swing stop take a breathe and start again, or go straight and then ask again. If the quarters go out then it's your body that's pushing them out. the weight in your feet should be equal on straight lines and more weighted to the inside bend when asking for flextion.

The only way you can ask for a true flexsion is if your hips are facing the direction you want the horse to go and your weight is correct. all you are doing is changing the bend- hence why circles are a good place to start!

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

What I will very slyly add in; I have had to break up the neck before and it is not pleasant! hauling left and right on the wiggle until they give feels awful but it does work! Do not do this unless your instructor is present- I am also sure there are other ways, but after 6 months with getting stuck (as in hitting brick wall after brick wall) it was the only way left to us!

 

[sandi_84]

I'm like you op it needs to sink in before I can click. Also if your horse is so stiff isn't this rather hard for her, may be far easier things to improve flexibility first.

He's a lot more flexable now than he was, think that lesson was over 6 months-ish ago now.

It's not something I'm wanting to get on and try today becuase we've got a lot of schooling to catch up on atm, we've been out of work since christmas untill a couple of weeks ago so we're basically starting from the beginning again Atm we're focusing again on transitions, circles, serpantines and the occasional bout of trotting poles now I've got a couple (need more coz I've only got 2 ha ha!).

Any tips on improving general flexability before we progress to attempting inside outside flex again?

Tinsel Trouble,
Thanks for the youtube link, watching it now and it's very enjoyable and informative! Wish Tim would come give me some lessons

 

[chestnut cob]

Do you have enough leg on to stop your horse drifting into the middle of the school? If you are asking for loads of inside bend (when asking for inside flexion) and you don't use your seat and legs to keep her on the same line, she will drift as she thinks that's what you're asking for. You shouldn't be asking for her to bend so much that she changes direction, just ask her to slightly bend her neck. I would start with flexing to the inside so that you can see her eye, then straighten, then do the same with the outside. When you bend to the inside, keep your inside leg on so she doesn't drift into the middle. Also, when you are asking are you changing your own position? If you start (unintentionally) giving her aids to turn into the middle, that's what she will do.

Ask you RI to check your position and make sure you aren't giving her conflicting aids.

 

[sandi_84]

What I will very slyly add in; I have had to break up the neck before and it is not pleasant! hauling left and right on the wiggle until they give feels awful but it does work! Do not do this unless your instructor is present- I am also sure there are other ways, but after 6 months with getting stuck (as in hitting brick wall after brick wall) it was the only way left to us!

Thanks for your expanded explanation Atm I don't have an instructor, it's just me and my horse in the field since we moved of the riding school livery yard. I actually can't afford an instructor atm (no job and all spare cash on driving lessons) hence why I'm just sticking to what we know atm and trying to get my silly brain round the theory

 

[sandi_84]

You shouldn't be asking for her to bend so much that she changes direction, just ask her to slightly bend her neck. I would start with flexing to the inside so that you can see her eye, then straighten, then do the same with the outside. When you bend to the inside, keep your inside leg on so she doesn't drift into the middle. Also, when you are asking are you changing your own position? If you start (unintentionally) giving her aids to turn into the middle, that's what she will do.

Ask you RI to check your position and make sure you aren't giving her conflicting aids.

This was what we were trying to do but even a slight bend to the inside or outside was ending up not so much in a drift sideways as almost turning in or out I was really trying to put lots of leg on to keep him straight at the same time but I'm not sure if it was enough, possibly I need stronger legs in addition to the rest
Tbh I can't really remember what my body was doing at the time and wheather I was changing position As far as I can remember I was attempting to encourage straightness by staying straight through my body and hips and just using my leg to keep him on the outside track (all this lesson was done on the outside track btw) and using my hands to ask for the flex.

I don't have an RI at the moment but again this isn't something I'm going to be attempting anytime soon, I just got thinking about it and wondered what went wrong. If I can get my head round the theory hopefully the next time we attempt it a) I'll have a better idea of what we're supposed to be doing and how to ask for it and b) we may even achieve better results

 

[PStarfish]

Sounds like maybe not enough outside rein. Heres how I would initially ask -
Start on a circle and make sure you have the correct bend. So inside leg on, outside leg slightly back controlling the quarters and whatever you do keep the outside rein contact. Your body should be facing in the direction you want to go and don't forget to look where you want to go as well and not at the ground. You can then ask for a smaller amount of flexion. Keeping everything the same as your circle, open your inside hand, don't pull back, and send a 'squeeze' down the rein. You will also need a strong inside leg and again, don't forget the outside rein - this will stop your horse coming in. It may be a stronger contact than you would like initially but as your horse becomes more flexible and 'gets' it the aids can become lighter. Keep it small and simple initially. As soon as the horse gives and you see the inside eye, release with the inside and reward (just a very quick stroke on the neck is enough) then ask again. Reward for any flexion. I would get it established on a circle before transferring this to 'going large'
Hope this helps

 

[PingPongPony]

I think everyone has answered on how to ask for inside and outside bend. So now to answer your question on how to improve general flexibility.
Carrot stretches, lots and lots of carrot stretches. As well as massaging the neck and back muscles. But carrot stretches are your friend for now
I'd also suggest you get your horse moving off your leg more so that you can keep him straight while you're asking for flexions. So transitions, using your legs when turning, going a bit off the track and just pushing the horse back onto the track with your inside leg etc. Then when you come to ask for inside bend, you can put your inside leg on to stop the sideways movement, and push the horse back onto the track Opposite applies to outside bend
Good luck!

 

[Tnavas]

Also known as riding in position where you flex the horses head slightly to the inside or outside. This one of the first exercises I teach my riders when it's time for them to truly use and understand the riders inside leg actually does.

How I explain it is to come around the corner with the horse bent to the inside and once you are facing the straight side, do your best to stop the horse from continuing the corner shape by using your inside leg. It helps if you look down the straight line not around the corner.

If your horse tries to continue on the circle, use your leg more firmly - think very determinedly that he will go straight, and if all else fails use your schooling whip smartly behind your inside leg.

If you lose the shape, ride a ten metre circle in walk and try again. Sometimes it helps to teach your horse turn on the forehand first so that he has the idea of moving away from your inside leg.

 

[sandi_84]

Sounds like maybe not enough outside rein. Heres how I would initially ask -
Start on a circle and make sure you have the correct bend. So inside leg on, outside leg slightly back controlling the quarters and whatever you do keep the outside rein contact. Your body should be facing in the direction you want to go and don't forget to look where you want to go as well and not at the ground. You can then ask for a smaller amount of flexion. Keeping everything the same as your circle, open your inside hand, don't pull back, and send a 'squeeze' down the rein. You will also need a strong inside leg and again, don't forget the outside rein - this will stop your horse coming in. It may be a stronger contact than you would like initially but as your horse becomes more flexible and 'gets' it the aids can become lighter. Keep it small and simple initially. As soon as the horse gives and you see the inside eye, release with the inside and reward (just a very quick stroke on the neck is enough) then ask again. Reward for any flexion. I would get it established on a circle before transferring this to 'going large'
Hope this helps

Thank you that was very concise and easy to understand

I think everyone has answered on how to ask for inside and outside bend. So now to answer your question on how to improve general flexibility.
Carrot stretches, lots and lots of carrot stretches. As well as massaging the neck and back muscles. But carrot stretches are your friend for now
I'd also suggest you get your horse moving off your leg more so that you can keep him straight while you're asking for flexions. So transitions, using your legs when turning, going a bit off the track and just pushing the horse back onto the track with your inside leg etc. Then when you come to ask for inside bend, you can put your inside leg on to stop the sideways movement, and push the horse back onto the track Opposite applies to outside bend
Good luck!

Aha! Good ole carrot stretches I have been attempting the move to inside track and back out to inside track too with varying degrees of success so as you can see still loads of work to go through before we really get to the stage of doing the inside outside flex Thanks!

Also known as riding in position where you flex the horses head slightly to the inside or outside. This one of the first exercises I teach my riders when it's time for them to truly use and understand the riders inside leg actually does.

How I explain it is to come around the corner with the horse bent to the inside and once you are facing the straight side, do your best to stop the horse from continuing the corner shape by using your inside leg. It helps if you look down the straight line not around the corner.

If your horse tries to continue on the circle, use your leg more firmly - think very determinedly that he will go straight, and if all else fails use your schooling whip smartly behind your inside leg.

If you lose the shape, ride a ten metre circle in walk and try again. Sometimes it helps to teach your horse turn on the forehand first so that he has the idea of moving away from your inside leg.

Cool, thank you too!