Insuring a loan horse...

[_jetset_]

I am going picking my new pony (17hh) up in October and she is not insured by her owner. What sort of cover would you get for her?

For Hannah I have full cover, and I would probably choose this for the new one too, but I just wanted to question the loss of use. If I was loaning I would want the borrower to insure for loss of use...

Rebecca

 

[Tia]

LOU is a complicated one where loaning is concerned as if anything happens to the horse there is often a debate as to who should be the beneficiary.

In your case it should be straight-forward as the owner does not have the horse insured, therefore it would stand to reason that if the horse dies then you are the beneficiary.

Make sure you cover all of this in the Loan Agreement. Good luck and enjoy your new pony.

 

[parsley]

I insured a loan pony for vets fees, loss and public liability with the NFU - they stated that the beneficiary would be the owner not me in the case of loss.

Why don't you include details of what insurance cover you should have in your loan agreement?

 

[_jetset_]

I am doing, that is why I need to sort it out properly... If I got LOU wouldn't it go to the owner as it is her horse? She owns the horse in full.

 

[Tia]

Generally the LOU money goes to the owner. Not sure though if you are paying for the insurance why you shouldn't get something out of it too! You need to clear this up with the owner....perhaps you could not insure for LOU which would keep your premiums lower, or if you do then the owner should be prepared to pay for part of the insurance.

 

[_jetset_]

Right thanks... I find insurance so confusing to be honest! Hannah has just been under the same premium since I bought her, and I have never claimed against it. After all, things just become void after that.

I think the owner wants her insured for LOU, I hadn't even thought about it to be honest.

 

[Iestyn]

You say that the horse is not insured at the moment, but you are going to insure her for everything including LOU? If the owner is not paying for LOU at the moment then I don't think you should be expected to. On top of that, insurance companies will not insure for LOU now unless they have a 5 stage vetting - another cost which either you or the owner need to pay. To be honest...if the owner is insisting on LOU cover then he/she needs to a) pay for the vetting, b) take the insurance out herself and c) pay for it. If she is not fussed about having LOU then write it into the contract that the horse is NOT insured for LOU, which she will sign and that is then covered.

 

[_jetset_]

Ok... didn't realise they needed a 5* vetting to insure for LOU. Thank you for all that information, I will mention it to the owner. I just heard her mention something about loss of use, but if she hasn't insured her for a while (as I haven't Hannah - just keep up payments and don't question it) then maybe she is not aware you need a 5* vetting.

Is this for every insurance company? I will be insuring her through NFU like Hannah

 

[Iestyn]

Sorry to say this, but just seen your other post about the mare...Alarm bells would be going off in my head at this moment. The owner doesn't have her insured at all at the moment - but is expecting you to insure her for LOU (which is very expensive). The mare is also 5 yrs old and has done nothing yet - just backed and turned away. I would be asking why, at this point. You are going to take on a complete, from scratch project - which you are going to hand back when she's going well. Have you thought maybe she is up for loan because maybe they haven't been able to get her going? She may have been good today but she has been out at grass for a while, she's not been worked (so not fit) and probably hasn't had any hard feed - what is she going to be like when all these are added to the equation?

She may well turn out to be fab and the loan is totally genuine but having had my fingers burnt on 3 occasions with loans with people taking advantage and me being soft and naive I'm just possibly reading between the lines a bit too much.

 

[Iestyn]

Not sure if it's the same for every company - we were insured for LOU, we then took it off the policy and when I tried to put it back on (same horse) they insisted on us then having a 5 stage done. When we originally had it on they didn't ask, but that was over 4 years ago and I think most companies will be pretty much the same now.

 

[spooks]

ive got both mine insured for LOU and the most recent horse was bough april this yr and i didnt have a 5* vetting on him. might be different for each insurance company. if mine were insured for more than 3 grand i would have had to have a 5* vetting but think that is commonplace for all ins companies ?

 

[LauraBR]

S_V has just said what I've been thinking but not plucked up the courage to post...

TBH I'm a little bit suspicious of anyone loaning a 5yo with expectations.

Good luck and be careful x

 

[parsley]

It was £5000 when I insured bomber with the NFU - although I did have the 5 stage vetting - something I wish I hadn't done in light of my recent vets trouble.

 

[_jetset_]

Thanks for your concern, and I have honestly been through everything possible with the horse. The owner has her own yard and will take her back at any time, she didn't want a notice period, it was me who insisted.

She has not had her insured because she only has her horses on the yard and has had a bad experience with insurance companies. One of her horses has a fibroid in its stifle, she claimed for the treatment, and then the company voided everything to do with the back legs.

The reason she has not had anything done with her is because she was broken last year and then the owner moved to the land she bought but did not have the facilities to continue the horse's eduction through the winter (got a new school now so know this works out).

The woman bred the horse herself and is very very attached to her... I hope this isn't being defammatory but she has said whatever value I add to her over the 12 months (she is still up for sale at the end of this period) she will half with me for all my work I have put in, or if I want to buy her she will still be at the original price.

Does this stop the alarm bells or are they still ringing... I would rather you be honest with me so don't worry about offending me.

She is unfit and I know this. She was quite lazy but I can just see so much potential... she is a nice mare in the stable, I watched her being tacked up, feet picked out, brushed, fed etc etc. I tried to ask every question I could think of...

 

[burtie]

Umm expecting you to insure her is very odd indeed. My mare is out on loan and all I did was reduce the vets fees excess to the normal amount of £120(it was £500) and insured her for a slightly more realistic sum, in this case £2k, because she was previously insured for a 'nominal' amount to get vets cover. I was asked why the increase in value, but she has a very good competition record and is being loaned as a schoolmistriss so they were fine about it. The insurance remains in my name but the loanee is paying for it, she is noted on the insurance document as the current loanee and she has a copy of the certificate. This way I know my mare is covered in case of vets fees and should any terrible happen and sghe have to be destroyed I will get the £2k. She is not insured for LOU as she never has been and this is a complete waste of money and very difficult to prove.

 

[Jazmine]

LOU and LOA payments go to the "legal owner". Sorry to sound so blunt! Just make sure that YOU don't carry the bulk of the insurance payments that would simply end up in the "legal owners" purse.

 

[_jetset_]

I think I will have a word with the owner regarding the loss of use section, as I do not think she would expect me to get a 5* vetting done as she did not mention anything of the sort.

Quite a few people who I know that have loaned their horses out have requested the borrower insure the horse themselves... so I just presumed this was normal.

God, it really is a mine field out there!

 

[burtie]

ALso I'm fairly sure you can't get LOU until the horse has proven itself and has a use to loose!!

 

[_jetset_]

Thanks Jazmine... I didn't know the extra costs of LOU to be honest.

 

[_jetset_]

Thanks Burtie... I am so glad that I asked this question!

 

[sillygillyhorse]

I sent a horse out on loan and I continued to pay the premium for him, I did notify the insurers he was on loan, that way if anything happened to him I, as the owner, got the money, after all it was still my horse. Cant help with the loss of use question but my feeling is that if that is what the owner wants she should put her hand in her pocket and pay for it.

 

[Iestyn]

If I'm honest, no it doesn't stop the alarm bells ringing - but then after my experiences I'm especially suspicious. It sounds like a HUGE commitment for a horse that may not become yours - a young horse on loan is very different from a newly backed, green as grass horse. The insurance story adds up though, but don't know why she would consider that a bad experience - it is common place that once there has been a pay out on a leg/legs or part of a horse after the 1 year anniversary of the problem then the insurance company will put exclusions on that part of the body. Maybe, as she has a few horses that she found it too expensive to have them insured - I know quite a few valuable competition horses that aren't insured because of the huge premiums and instead they save that money just in case a horse needs treatment.

Make sure you have her current value in the loan agreement and the split profit part. But then what happens if she takes the horse back all schooled up with a competition record and sells her a month later? If she goes back with added value maybe you should have a clause giving a time period that the horse is either sold or not???
Sorry if I'm putting a dampner on yr joy, but I hope you appreciate my honesty - I tend to speak as I find, LOL

 

[sillygillyhorse]

Forgot to say, make sure you have a proper written contract,properly drafted then signed and witnessed, covering all eventualities. I as an owner even included a clause to say they could not hog my boys mane!

 

[_jetset_]

Thanks MrsT... Its so hard when you have never done this bit before. I have my own horse insured, but when it is someone elses you have to think about their wishes too. After all, she is her horse.

But I think you are right, I am going to explain that I would need to get a 5 stage vetting done in order to get this done.

 

[Jazmine]

[ QUOTE ]
ALso I'm fairly sure you can't get LOU until the horse has proven itself and has a use to loose!!

[/ QUOTE ]
You can get LOU for hacking believe it of or. So long as you get a vet's certificate. Basically, if you insure for hacking (or class one depending on insurance company), and your vet say's that due to injury your ned can't hack, (ie field ornament), then you can claim for LOU.
Strange, but then again, maybe not!

 

[_jetset_]

S_V... the bit about her current value and the splitting of monies is being put in the loan agreement which I am drawing up as I have one to follow that a solicitor created for a friend.

I know you are cautious, I would be too if I had a bad experience. But I honestly feel this lady is honest and cares a great deal for this horse, you can tell by the way she is with her. I am not worried if things go wrong because she will have her back straight away... and she really is a lovely mare.

I just think the whole buying/selling/loaning thing is a mine field!

 

[Iestyn]

It is difficult on here to know as you don't get that "feeling" from someone like you have got from the mare's owner - if you are comfortable with it then that's a huge positive. I've probably spolit yr excitement a bit now - SORRY!!!

I'll never loan again - but that is a personal decision, and I'll never sell my boy and he's still only 7 so hopefully a few more years of fun yet. I have sold one horse and thankfully it was very straightforward and she is still in a lovely home. Not planning on buying for a long time yet either as can only afford one horse!!! But yes, I'm sure it is a minefield - it certainly was for us when we loaned a horse. There is a fairly standard loan agreement on the BHS website which you can download and then edit to suit your own arrangement. I hope it works out and no doubt you will keep us up to date on yr adventures!

 

[_jetset_]

Don't be sorry, you have brought up some good points that I need to clarify with the owner of the horse. For example, this LOU seems to be a bit of an issue, so I need to speak to her about that. If she is prepared to pay for a 5 stage vetting then that is fine, but I just cannot outlay that kind of money unless I was buying one.

The other thing I need to sort out is the sharing of profits... I need to find out how to word it properly and also how she wants it wording too.

I get a feeling she is honest because she never questioned giving me the passport, wants to come and see her and is heavily involved with the Natural Horseman thing and organises a lot of clinics in her area. I don't know, I just felt she was a genuine person...

Seriously though, if things go wrong then I know she can go back the following day without question! That makes it all a little easier.

 

[flynn]

i have a horse on loan and insured him 4 everything just 2 cover myself and would advise you 2 do the same as it can get very costly

 

[_jetset_]

Would you mind tellinf me exactly what you paid for and how much it came to? Did you get loss of use?