Interesting idea for EMS/Laminitics

[Red-1]

Since having Rigsby, I have learned more about EMS and laminitis than I ever imagined. It has, by enlarge, been a success. He was dieted, under vets supervision, and then tested on the caro sugar test as able to have sugars, EMS reading down from in the hundreds to in the teens. We got him up to 4 hours in a field muzzled, 1 hour not, and called it good for the year as he is now back on hardstanding whilst we transfer from soaked hay to high fibre haylage.

I have been uneasy though. He is often hungry. I am in loads of FB groups, and it is generally accepted that EMS/laminitic horses have to be hungry. I have fed straw as a belly filler, which helps, but then the straw is full of chemicals, so not ideal.

I read a post on one of the FB groups last night, saying that the owner had contacted Forage Plus for advice. They advised to use Topline Plus balancer. The owner was alarmed, surely that would bring on lami? The nutritionist said not, that horses on a soaked hay/light diet needed protein to stop feeling hungry.

It was like a light bulb!

On another thread I started, I charted my success with the Noom program. I had already lost a stack of weight by myself, but had stuck ay 11 1/2 stone. Using Noom, I have smashed it. Down to 9st3lbs. The strange thing is, it felt effortless. I was never hungry. The secret? Amongst a lot of other stuff, I had increased my protein. When I was stuck, extra protein had unstuck me. The Forage Plus thing made complete sense to me.

But, I fear lami with Rigsby, so would no way simply follow a random FB post for advice.

I headed over to the web page, and yes, the product does say it is suitable for laminitics.

Topline Plus | Protein for Horses | Forageplus

I will copy some of the blurb..........................

"
Why Feed Horses Topline Plus?
Some forages are low in available protein and a range of amino acids due to a complicated interaction between nitrogen and sulphur levels in the soil. Many horses benefit from an increase in protein for muscle development.

Extra protein can help with poor topline but also lethargy problems and poor hoof and skin quality. Topline Plus enables you to target supplementation without including extra calories and can suppress overeating from good doer types. Your horse can therefore continue to enjoy ad-lib hay without the added calorie concerns that feeding more compound feed would entail.

Naturally contains 85.9% protein.

No added sugar

Provides 75 grams of protein per 100 grams of the product

Which horses will benefit from the addition of Topline Plus?

• Those on a reduced hay ratio due to needing to lose weight.
• Horses with poor topline or body condition needing muscle building.
• Laminitis prone horses needing a very low sugar and starch protein source due to high sugar sensitivity.
• Older horses which are struggling to maintain top line and body condition score.
• Horses that have access to low protein levels in the forage they are eating, can be determined from a nutritional and mineral analysis of hay or haylage.
• Those on a pure winter grass diet when protein levels can be low and contribute to hoof and skin issues.
• Horses with poor hoof wall connection and or cracks. Barefoot horses in particular will benefit with stronger soles and white line connection.
• Ponies & Horses on a heavy exercise program.
• Young horses on a forage-based diet needing protein for optimum growth.
• Pregnant or lactating mares on a forage-based diet who need high protein requirements.

..................................................................."

I have ordered some.

Rigsby's hunger has been the only thing that has bothered me. He is sound. I don't like him looking skinny, but can get my head round that, as I am now skinny and it actually feels good! Ribs showing doesn't hurt, but hunger does. Noom helped me get slim without hunger due to protein.

If anyone else wants to try this, I will report back.

If anyone wants to try it now, here is a 10% discount code...

REFYZEHF7929Q

I sincerely hope this helps Rigs be satisfied. It did for me, I am a bit "facepalm" that I didn't think of it earlier.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

Protein is known to be lacking in restricted diets but do be careful. DP has EMS and I put him on pea protein from FP and he ballooned even more than normal and became very footy.

 

[windand rain]

Interesting might be appropriate for my lot especially one with a spot of seedy toe

 

[Red-1]

Protein is known to be lacking in restricted diets but do be careful. DP has EMS and I put him on pea protein from FP and he ballooned even more than normal and became very footy.

I will be introducing it very slowly. We have been swapping from soaked hay to haylage for a week now, still on 3/4 hay and only 1/4 haylage.

I am also twitchy as, when his asthma kicked in, he lost weight rapidly. Because of that, he has been on extra soaked hay, but the asthma has self corrected with the advent of end of harvest and rain, and now looks a bit weighty! Aaaagh!

 

[Equi]

Protein is an essential filler for any "diet" i know when i was weight lifting for the first time i balked at the amount of protein/calories i was being asked to use having been a slimming world buff my whole life and terrified of anything synfull. I toned up massively and currently run 2stone lighter but my back couldn't cope so i had to stop the exercise but i haven't put back on the weight (bar a few holiday lbs that i intend to loose again) Im a meat lover anyway so its not hard for me to fill up on protein, i would eat a chicken breast before a chocolate bar. Any diabetic i know is told to keep up a good protein diet.

So it stands to reason horses are the same. They need the protein for muscle development etc anyway, any show buff/breeder ive talked to have always said first step to a winner is having protein so any of my feeds were 12% (and im not talking about the morbidly obese show cobs im talking minis and they generally are wanted to look like a show horse in mini so not fat at all but well muscled)

Protein should not have many sugars so for metabolic it should be ok.

 

[Shilasdair]

I thought it was obvious that horses/ponies on a restricted calorie intake (and <10% sugar/starch) would need an additional protein/vit/mineral supplement?
I use Spillers Lite and Lean rather than Topline, as well as giving them some extras such as herbs, probiotics etc.

 

[Red-1]

I thought it was obvious that horses/ponies on a restricted calorie intake (and <10% sugar/starch) would need an additional protein/vit/mineral supplement?
I use Spillers Lite and Lean rather than Topline, as well as giving them some extras such as herbs, probiotics etc.

He has been on less than 10% sugar/starch combination, that info is easily found. Also, a vitamin and mineral supplement, initially one by Trinity Consultants, again common sense and easily found that they would need that, as I was washing the vitamins out of the hay. But I haven't found info specifically on protein, and I have spoken personally to several feed company nutritionists, and have even checked that they are actual nutritionists not just sales people.

I even had about half an hour specifically talking diets with my vet, she talked about weighing and soaking hay etc, but not about protein.

Since being on grass, he went onto Metaslim balancer, as a preventative. I just looked, and that has 19-25% protein. He did lose weight on it, but he also had asthma which accelerated it too much, very quickly. He is going to stay on Metaslim just until the swap to haylage is complete. I will fade that one out and this one in.

As I said, a facepalm moment as regards protein. I don't think everyone knows this, how many dieters up their protein levels for themselves? It certainly curbs my hunger and has led to great weight loss, with no hunger. Facepalm for me not translating it to the horse.

I had kind of viewed his diet as needing to be quite 'empty'. Especially as he is essentially retired. Facepalm.

 

[Shilasdair]

He has been on a vitamin and mineral supplement, by Trinity Consultants. Not protein.

As I said, a facepalm moment.

I had kind of viewed his diet as needing to be quite 'empty'. Especially as he is essentially retired. Facepalm.

Why not protein? He won't be getting enough from a soaked hay/low sugar/starch forage.
To lose weight you need to reduce the overall calories (DE MJ), and to control blood sugar balance for EMS/laminitis, you need to reduce the sugar/starch content to <10%.
But protein is for maintenance of body systems, growth and repair - and they still need it, particularly if they are youngstock, elderly or injured or sick in some way.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Mine seem happier since I've started giving them pony sized portions of complete feeds to carry the extra minerals they need to balance my grass. I was using "empty" chaff as a carrier but I'm sure just a touch of a complete diet has really helped them. They do seem less hungry over all too.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I've always fed my PRE (good doer, but not extreme, but would be the type for laminitis and/or EMS) a high protein diet. Just makes sense. Hay is often lacking protein here, they need it to build muscle/for other things in the body, and it can be more filling.
His diet is also rather high in fat (linseed oil), but he's in work and can deal with this. The sugar/starch content is less than 10% but he has eaten a small amount of oats in the past.

Feeding protein and low sugar and starch, just makes sense to me.

 

[Zuzan]

The only thing to be careful of is that some horses are very good at converting protein to energy .. but yes diet doesn't mean starvation and protein requirements must be included .

 

[Errin Paddywack]

A bit like the Atkins diet. Cut down on carbohydrates and up the protein.

 

[Red-1]

I totally agree, it makes perfect sense. I can only say that, after many consultations with 2 vets, 3 feed company nutritionists, they all directed sugar/starch levels, recommended supplementing vitamins and minerals, one recommended cinnamon, but protein was never mentioned.

I hope this will hep someone else's horse.

 

[BronsonNutter]

I don’t think we can directly compare the human digestive system to that of a horse… the comment that ‘your horse can then continue to enjoy ad-lib hay’ is worrying in particular - adding protein to a podgy native ponies diet will not stop them stuffing themselves on ad-lib hay! For example, my ex racer is on a low-starch, high-protein hard feed (because she has a history of ulcers) - this has caused her to gain weight and she NEVER stops eating haylage so obviously can’t feel toooo full.

By all means use it as a balancer, but continue with the rest of the diet as it is and be super careful monitoring weight and workload.

 

[Red-1]

I don’t think we can directly compare the human digestive system to that of a horse… the comment that ‘your horse can then continue to enjoy ad-lib hay’ is worrying in particular - adding protein to a podgy native ponies diet will not stop them stuffing themselves on ad-lib hay! For example, my ex racer is on a low-starch, high-protein hard feed (because she has a history of ulcers) - this has caused her to gain weight and she NEVER stops eating haylage so obviously can’t feel toooo full.

By all means use it as a balancer, but continue with the rest of the diet as it is and be super careful monitoring weight and workload.

I will do. As I said, I have been swapping soaked hay for high fibre haylage for a week now and we are still at 3/4 hay V 1/4 haylage, very slow and careful. I also had the discussion with Mr Red that I don't think Riggers will ever be able to be ad-lib. LOL.

 

[BronsonNutter]

I will do. As I said, I have been swapping soaked hay for high fibre haylage for a week now and we are still at 3/4 hay V 1/4 haylage.

I’m sure you’ll be sensible! Just worried regarding the wording of some bits of their advert that others may be less so.
Feeding good doers is so much harder than hollow-legged TBs - not envious at all

 

[Red-1]

I’m sure you’ll be sensible! Just worried regarding the wording of some bits of their advert that others may be less so.
Feeding good doers is so much harder than hollow-legged TBs - not envious at all

Until Rigsby, I have had athletic types, none of whom were metabolically challenged. It has been a learning curve for sure.

I am aware that, even with being careful, something could trigger him back to EMS and lami. It is worrisome, but worth the risk of changing what has proved to be safe, for the benefit of him not being hungry!

 

[KEK]

Very interesting. Never really thought about protein needs for my pony (although very conscious of it for my sporting dogs). I don't think he would be getting much at all - is there any in meadow hay or lucern chaff? Or speedi beet? That's all he gets apart from a powdered balancer that just has vits and mins.

 

[Red-1]

Very interesting. Never really thought about protein needs for my pony (although very conscious of it for my sporting dogs). I don't think he would be getting much at all - is there any in meadow hay or lucern chaff? Or speedi beet? That's all he gets apart from a powdered balancer that just has vits and mins.

That has been the same for me, but with the sports horses. When competing, I paid attention to protein. Retired cob Riggers, not so much.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

As with everything EMS the learning curve is steep and mildly terrifying to start with and some owners concentrate on the lower starch and sugar content without considering the horses wider nutritional needs.

Red-1 thank you for starting this thread, as can already be seen our individual experiences are so different and what works for one may not work for another. Like all things unless the discussion takes place people never learn and I have found through trial and error that knowledge is the key to keeping an EMS horse happy, healthy and laminitis free.

 

[Shilasdair]

Very interesting. Never really thought about protein needs for my pony (although very conscious of it for my sporting dogs). I don't think he would be getting much at all - is there any in meadow hay or lucern chaff? Or speedi beet? That's all he gets apart from a powdered balancer that just has vits and mins.

It depends what you are feeding - but lucerne (alfalfa) is comparatively high in protein as it's a legume (same family as peas) not a grass. But check the nutritional analysis of your feed.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

In terms of slowing greedy eaters, and preventing that "standing around looking sad" thing, I've also found it really helps to spread the hay between some loose in a flexi tub, some in a regular net mixed with a bit of straw, and some in a trickle net. I'm lucky to have quite a bit of grass-free space, so I can spread these out, and it seems to keep them busier for more of the day. It's definitely true that over-restricting makes them more anxious and "greedier", but it's such a difficult balance isn't it?!

 

[KEK]

It depends what you are feeding - but lucerne (alfalfa) is comparatively high in protein as it's a legume (same family as peas) not a grass. But check the nutritional analysis of your feed.

Oh good. I had a feeling as I was typing that Lucerne might be higher in protein. No nutritional analysis on the bag, I will check with the feed store. Thats the down side of not feeding the pony cubes that the others get, I guess. Thanks

 

[Shilasdair]

As with everything EMS the learning curve is steep and mildly terrifying to start with and some owners concentrate on the lower starch and sugar content without considering the horses wider nutritional needs.

Agreed.
I think the main thing I have learnt is to test ALL horses for metabolic issues once they reach 15 years of age, and at least annually thereafter.

I had to ask for one of mine to be blood tested after she got laminitis without being overweight at all - she turned out to have both EMS and Cushings despite no symptoms of the latter.

 

[KEK]

In terms of slowing greedy eaters, and preventing that "standing around looking sad" thing, I've also found it really helps to spread the hay between some loose in a flexi tub, some in a regular net mixed with a bit of straw, and some in a trickle net. I'm lucky to have quite a bit of grass-free space, so I can spread these out, and it seems to keep them busier for more of the day. It's definitely true that over-restricting makes them more anxious and "greedier", but it's such a difficult balance isn't it?!

Ulcers vs laminitis horses are so much harder than other species!

 

[Red-1]

It depends what you are feeding - but lucerne (alfalfa) is comparatively high in protein as it's a legume (same family as peas) not a grass. But check the nutritional analysis of your feed.

Also good for us, as Rigs has one bucket feed a day with speedy beet and Top Chop Zero, plus vit/mineral supplement, with a half a mug of Lami Gel, which is a powdered alfalfa thing. No nutritional analysis on the bag though! I was recommended to Lami Gel as it seems to calm tummies. It has worked for that.

 

[Red-1]

Agreed.
I think the main thing I have learnt is to test ALL horses for metabolic issues once they reach 15 years of age, and at least annually thereafter.

I had to ask for one of mine to be blood tested after she got laminitis without being overweight at all - she turned out to have both EMS and Cushings despite no symptoms of the latter.

I discussed this with my vet, we are going to blood test every year, including sugar starvation test, before introducing grazing, to reduce the risk when introducing grass.

At the moment he has arena turnout in winter (our land is heavy clay), but we are also half way through putting in a loafing area in the back of the stables, so he can have free movement. The other horse is having a similar one, so they can groom over the fence whilst 'stabled'. They will still get time out on the arena, as well as being worked, to maximise movement.

The things we do to make their lives better!

 

[KEK]

Also good for us, as Rigs has one bucket feed a day with speedy beet and Top Chop Zero, plus vit/mineral supplement, with a half a mug of Lami Gel, which is a powdered alfalfa thing. No nutritional analysis on the bag though! I was recommended to Lami Gel as it seems to calm tummies. It has worked for that.

I just googled top chop zero to see what it was -flavoured straw, interesting. We don't have anything like that here, that I've seen. Thats why mine is on the lucern chaff, not oaten. Although we do have low sugar hay so we don't have to soak it which is nice.

 

[Shilasdair]

I discussed this with my vet, we are going to blood test every year, including sugar starvation test, before introducing grazing, to reduce the risk when introducing grass.

At the moment he has arena turnout in winter (our land is heavy clay), but we are also half way through putting in a loafing area in the back of the stables, so he can have free movement. The other horse is having a similar one, so they can groom over the fence whilst 'stabled'. They will still get time out on the arena, as well as being worked, to maximise movement.

The things we do to make their lives better!

Interestingly, although my 18yo horse got laminitis at the end of January (no grass), was not overweight (even the vet said so) with no history of issues, no vet suggested blood testing her, but instead suggested I treat her as though she was fat, and make her thin.
I had to ask for full bloods to be run.

 

[Red-1]

Interestingly, although my 18yo horse got laminitis at the end of January (no grass), was not overweight (even the vet said so) with no history of issues, no vet suggested blood testing her, but instead suggested I treat her as though she was fat, and make her thin.
I had to ask for full bloods to be run.

That doesn't sound impressive from the vet.

I actually changed vets as I felt the first one, despite being very well respected in the competition horse world, didn't want to spend time talking cob culture. I wanted someone who would stop and actually chat so I could ask questions. The second vets have been amazing, but I did let them know that this horse was as important to me as a posh horse was to others. Booked a double appointment, but still, protein didn't come up as a subject!!!!